It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:16 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Replayability
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Earth
I hate to format this as a complaint, but I have found that complaints usually get more response. I am dissatisfied by the replayability of Uru content. That is not to say that I don't linger on every word of the DRC during the episodes, but simply that I vacate the cavern the moment the episode ends and don't return until the next episode starts, because I see no reason to stay and replay the Uru content during the hiatus.

Part of the problem, as I have seen, is the notorious lack of replayability of the Myst games themselves. I mean, we all enjoy roaming the beautiful vistas of Riven occasionally, but what's the fun of solving a puzzle after you've already solved it? Obviously, this is not exactly easy for Cyantists to fix, so I can live with this, but it illuminates the other fixable causes of this dilemma.

As of late, the vast majority of ages in MOUL existed in PotS, with the notable exceptions of The Pod Ages, Minkata, and Jalak. The Pod Ages were, unfortunately, not very fun. So many buttons, but in the end, you had to wait for the bus to come. I hated the 15min wait in PotS, so imagine how I felt when I discovered i had to wait for my appointment with a quarter-donut.

Minkata was nice. (Loved the music.) Tricky puzzle in true Myst fashion. Got lost a lot. :) It took the whole month to crack that egg, which is exactly the point. Well done.

Jalak was a let-down. After I discovered that the age had no puzzles (was it too much to ask? Just on the side?), I spent maybe 3 or 4 days playing with it, and then I was done. It has a semblance of replayability, but I don't start MOUL if I want to play chess.

Suggested solutions for months without a new puzzle (and I stress both words): Laser tag. Before anyone balks at this idea, just think. Despite my aversion to any and all FPSs flooding the market, I think some sort of competition (A little more than Jalak) with fellow players is just the thing to bring players in during the off-season. And it doesn't have to be laser tag specifically. Just a competitive activity involving physical movement (i.e. soccer or something) - as I said, I don't want to play chess. Another possibility could be rewards for doing things in the game (although I guess this is not directly related to replayability) which are a little more substantial than the private times in the CGZMs or the number of points your pellets get, i.e. something to get you a new area or something. I am sure you guys can think of more, but I just thought I needed to get that out there.

_________________
The D'ni Wiki - For anything and everything Myst!
Name: Di Gama, KI: was 00555395, now 03320100
[3].[3][13][12][9][15][18][23][14]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 2190
Location: Houston
Had that Idea this time last year.

It's a good Idea, it really is.

I phrased it more as Holographic paintball, but the lasertag version works just as well. Someone else suggested just clicking on a person, and after so many clicks their maintainer's suit will auto link them to the team locker room.

_________________
Waymet


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Replayability
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:48 pm
Posts: 746
di gama wrote:
I hate to format this as a complaint, but I have found that complaints usually get more response. I am dissatisfied by the replayability of Uru content. That is not to say that I don't linger on every word of the DRC during the episodes, but simply that I vacate the cavern the moment the episode ends and don't return until the next episode starts, because I see no reason to stay and replay the Uru content during the hiatus.

Part of the problem, as I have seen, is the notorious lack of replayability of the Myst games themselves. I mean, we all enjoy roaming the beautiful vistas of Riven occasionally, but what's the fun of solving a puzzle after you've already solved it? Obviously, this is not exactly easy for Cyantists to fix, so I can live with this, but it illuminates the other fixable causes of this dilemma.


The reason that the Myst series and Uru in particular are not as replayable as some other games is that it's all supposed to be real. Even though it's a game, it's not a game (wow, that didn't even make sense to me). Cyan isn't designing it to be replayable; they are designing it to be real, or as real as a game involving teleporting humanoid ant creatures can be :lol: . In many ways, Cyan writes the content around the story whereas other games write the story around the content (where the heck am I pulling this from?).

di gama wrote:
As of late, the vast majority of ages in MOUL existed in PotS, with the notable exceptions of The Pod Ages, Minkata, and Jalak. The Pod Ages were, unfortunately, not very fun. So many buttons, but in the end, you had to wait for the bus to come. I hated the 15min wait in PotS, so imagine how I felt when I discovered i had to wait for my appointment with a quarter-donut.


I'll agree with you there, but you have to admit that the reasoning behind the wait for the pods was better that the reasoning for PotS.

di gama wrote:
Jalak was a let-down. After I discovered that the age had no puzzles (was it too much to ask? Just on the side?), I spent maybe 3 or 4 days playing with it, and then I was done. It has a semblance of replayability, but I don't start MOUL if I want to play chess.


Jalak doesn't have a puzzle because it isn't realistic to think that every Age written by the D'ni revolved around puzzles (I know, linking isn't realistic either :P ). We are restoring a civilization, some of the stuff isn't going to be about puzzles. That said, I think Cyan was hoping we would enjoy the creativity of Jalak more than most of us did.

di gama wrote:
Suggested solutions for months without a new puzzle (and I stress both words): Laser tag. Before anyone balks at this idea, just think. Despite my aversion to any and all FPSs flooding the market, I think some sort of competition (A little more than Jalak) with fellow players is just the thing to bring players in during the off-season. And it doesn't have to be laser tag specifically. Just a competitive activity involving physical movement (i.e. soccer or something) - as I said, I don't want to play chess. Another possibility could be rewards for doing things in the game (although I guess this is not directly related to replayability) which are a little more substantial than the private times in the CGZMs or the number of points your pellets get, i.e. something to get you a new area or something. I am sure you guys can think of more, but I just thought I needed to get that out there.


If you're looking for competition, I think you'll like the "wall" in Gahreesen. It was designed specifically for competition.

_________________
Frisky Badger
Guild of Maintainers
My opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the Guild of Maintainers.
KI# 00140468


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Replayability
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 5:51 am
Posts: 134
Frisky Badger wrote:
The reason that the Myst series and Uru in particular are not as replayable as some other games is that it's all supposed to be real. Even though it's a game, it's not a game (wow, that didn't even make sense to me). Cyan isn't designing it to be replayable; they are designing it to be real, or as real as a game involving teleporting humanoid ant creatures can be :lol: . In many ways, Cyan writes the content around the story whereas other games write the story around the content (where the heck am I pulling this from?).


Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Myst is NOT meant to be a replayable game. The medium doesn't lend itself to that. Yes, we have a okay chat-based storyline that I read over these forums, but when I read your post I had a terrible sinking feeling about the URU game. Most of us just sign on for 5 days every 5 weeks for a little bit of "right-place-right-time" hopeful story encounter and to explore the new age. There is ZERO replayability there. An MMO game is supposed to keep you involved constantly. With Warcraft you spend weeks leveling your character, joining guilds, helping each other, questing, finding good gear, etc. Then you make another character, if you want, which is a completely different class and race and the game is a different experience in a lot of ways. I personally don't understand the URU people who have a bunch of avatars unless they really want to complete the game as a long nosed man, a husky long haired woman AND a bald goatee wearing guy with a wide neck. Unless Cyan steps up the game play to a more involving level, I really think the plug is going to be pulled on this project soon.

I'm not saying that from a place of spitefulness because if I didn't want the game to succeed, I wouldn't trying posting constuctive critisism on these forums. I know, I know, I know... there's no budget, but it takes money to make money, so unless the producers are willing to dump a bunch of cash and faith into this project, it's going to piddle out and crawl to a stop. We're going to sign on one day to "we're sorry, but production on URU has been indefinitely suspended, please enjoy the 1000 other games that GameTap has available." Most people just laugh when I mention that I'm playing the MMO Myst because I guess they don't see how the Myst concept can translate to the MMO genre.

The one saving grace I see is the foramation of the guilds. The ability of our high intelligent members to participate and eventually even write ages. What do you all think? Fan material would, of course, have to be approved and released by Cyan, but unless there's some big money grant coming, the end may not have been writtten, but it's inevitable. :cry:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
I've found Jalak really fun with a group of people. I've come up with quite a few games (and bouncing holoblocks off each other is always funny). The problem is that we have a catch 22 of our own (as opposed to Cyan's content Catch 22). Jalak needs a large group of people, but no one's really on much, so no one can have fun in Jalak with a large group, so they stay away, so others can't have fun in Jalak, etc.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Replayability
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:25 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:34 am
Posts: 769
di gama wrote:
Just a competitive activity involving physical movement (i.e. soccer or something) - as I said, I don't want to play chess.


You don't seem to understand Jalak... you really should check out The Jalak Registry. A majority of the games explorers have posted are actually sport-style games, including a kind of Soccer, a game where you race another explorer up a "staircase" with a Jalakbloc, and many other fun, creative, competative games.

And don't knock the abstract strategy games (like Chess), either, some of them are really fun, and are totally unavailable outside the Cavern.

I'm not disparaging your comments. I actually agree with them, and I too find that Uru is far too much work and not enough fun, but I think Jalak was created specifically to address your concerns, and you should give it another look.

_________________
KI#01165421
Hey! Visit The Jalak Registry, the source for all things Jalak. Yes, it's still open!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Posts: 1561
Location: Middle of USA
I too had a great time in Jalak with a game that a hoodmate came up with.

On the subject of the plug getting pulled I had a chuckle. I don't think Cyan is worried about ppl being on the game 24/7. I remember long ago it was stated somewhere about the game being great for the casual gamer and it is.
Cyan only needs ppl to log on once a month.... I think that is how they are basing it... With that in mind the game will do just fine.

The game is done in episodes. Don't feel bad for not logging on until the start of the next episode. That is basically how Cyan has the thing designed. If they are not going to make enough money based on this episode technic then I am sure they will work to change it.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Earth
Frisky Badger wrote:
The reason that the Myst series and Uru in particular are not as replayable as some other games is that it's all supposed to be real. Even though it's a game, it's not a game (wow, that didn't even make sense to me). Cyan isn't designing it to be replayable; they are designing it to be real, or as real as a game involving teleporting humanoid ant creatures can be :lol:. In many ways, Cyan writes the content around the story whereas other games write the story around the content (where the heck am I pulling this from?).

Like I said, that particular problem is hard to address, but it would seem that they have to address it if they expect MOUL to work in the long run, because replayability translates as continuance of play in an MMO.

Frisky Badger wrote:
di gama wrote:
As of late, the vast majority of ages in MOUL existed in PotS, with the notable exceptions of The Pod Ages, Minkata, and Jalak. The Pod Ages were, unfortunately, not very fun. So many buttons, but in the end, you had to wait for the bus to come. I hated the 15min wait in PotS, so imagine how I felt when I discovered i had to wait for my appointment with a quarter-donut.


I'll agree with you there, but you have to admit that the reasoning behind the wait for the pods was better that the reasoning for PotS.

I also understand the IC reason for the portals in the Pod Ages (I see it as the dawn sun hitting a certain angle like in Indiana Jones), but couldn't they have "increased the planetary rotation" just a bit?

Frisky Badger wrote:
di gama wrote:
Jalak was a let-down. After I discovered that the age had no puzzles (was it too much to ask? Just on the side?), I spent maybe 3 or 4 days playing with it, and then I was done. It has a semblance of replayability, but I don't start MOUL if I want to play chess.


Jalak doesn't have a puzzle because it isn't realistic to think that every Age written by the D'ni revolved around puzzles (I know, linking isn't realistic either :P). We are restoring a civilization, some of the stuff isn't going to be about puzzles. That said, I think Cyan was hoping we would enjoy the creativity of Jalak more than most of us did.

I understand the IC reason for why Jalak has no puzzles, but OOC, it would really have helped to have something to provide an excuse to give us a donut (not to say that I am more interested in donuts than puzzles).

Frisky Badger wrote:
If you're looking for competition, I think you'll like the "wall" in Gahreesen. It was designed specifically for competition.

I never tried the Gahreesen wall because I never played UU, and I can't wait for them to release it. It sounds like just the thing to solve the problem, although those of you who have already played it ad nauseum in UU may disagree (I wouldn't know).

raistlin75 wrote:
The one saving grace I see is the foramation of the guilds. The ability of our high intelligent members to participate and eventually even write ages. What do you all think? Fan material would, of course, have to be approved and released by Cyan, but unless there's some big money grant coming, the end may not have been writtten, but it's inevitable. :(

I know that Cyan has suggested that fan-created content is a possibility in the future, and I hate to be a spoil-sport, but I just don't see it happening. I am gunning for it like everyone else (if you could see me you'd see my black Writer's Guild shirt too), but the fact is that fan ages are simply not of the same quality as Cyan's own ages, not to mention that unless they provide their own tools (unlikely), they will need to show the innards of the game way more than they would be comfortable with.

The Noble Robot wrote:
You don't seem to understand Jalak... you really should check out The Jalak Registry. A majority of the games explorers have posted are actually sport-style games, including a kind of Soccer, a game where you race another explorer up a "staircase" with a Jalakbloc, and many other fun, creative, competative games.

And don't knock the abstract strategy games (like Chess), either, some of them are really fun, and are totally unavailable outside the Cavern.

I'm not saying that I don't like Jalak. It's cool. But the abstract strategy games could be easily replicated in a simple program (which I have been considering writing in Java, btw), and Jalak (in my opinion) is too small for any good sports (although the posted ideas are valiant efforts).

The real question is this: what content can you release to entertain a crowd for an entire month? I wish I knew, and I bet Cyan would like to know too.

I guess it's all the same to GameTap, and therefore Cyan, as long as we come every month and pay periodically. But I still don't think explorers appreciate that it is only worth coming to the cavern a quarter of the time.

_________________
The D'ni Wiki - For anything and everything Myst!
Name: Di Gama, KI: was 00555395, now 03320100
[3].[3][13][12][9][15][18][23][14]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:52 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:01 pm
Posts: 1878
I look at the past six months as a set of small-scale experiments in keeping players interested. None of them is completely satisfactory, but you can still learn from what players pay attention to:

- Jalak: Virtual board/playground, with no built-in goal
- Ercana (and GZ before that): CRPG-style tasks
- Delin/Tsogal: Small-team puzzles
- Marker quests: Hide-and-seek or riddle tool
- Kirel (and forums): Social organization planning
- Minkata: Old-fashioned Myst puzzle

So Jalak isn't the most exciting game board you can imagine, and the pellets aren't the most complicated crafting system, and Kirel doesn't offer a Guild system yet. But -- going purely by forum activity -- I would guess that Ercana drew more attention than Jalak. So maybe that tells Cyan what sort of stuff to develop in more detail, next year.

As for the quality of fan ages, we won't know that until people have really started to raise the bar on each other...

_________________
Andrew Plotkin -- Seltani founding member


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:10 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:25 am
Posts: 869
MO:UL has roughly the replayability of a cave. For cavers, that's a whole lot.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 5:07 pm
Posts: 883
Location: Plymouth, England
I think Jalak is a great deal of fun and probably the first completly replayable age we've had. But Jalak is dull as fiery abyss unless your a little creative and I've found my enjoyment of it increases as the number of the people in the age also increases.

Personally I find Jalak is great fun for three a side footie (soccer) and I've played a few other games which are nameless but good fun. If you want Jalak to be fun bring a friend or two along and then just start messing about. I do agree that Jalak can be insanely boring without other people. My first expearence left me unimpressed but then I went there with two other people and had a blast.

But the points here are mostly right Myst because its often real-time story and puzzle based isn't as replayable as other games.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 3:35 am
Posts: 164
Uru helps those who help themselves.

There are a vast number of games and activities that can and are being held throughout the cavern during "inbetween time".

Do yourself a favor and do a little research. The D'ni Olympics contained a variety of events (including the soon to be available Wall) that required no special programming or additions to the game. The event creators and hosts used that which was available to them to have fun.

Nothing is stopping you from creating and hosting your own event. Nothing at all.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Earth
frankenscarf wrote:
Uru helps those who help themselves.

There are a vast number of games and activities that can and are being held throughout the cavern during "inbetween time".

Do yourself a favor and do a little research. The D'ni Olympics contained a variety of events (including the soon to be available Wall) that required no special programming or additions to the game. The event creators and hosts used that which was available to them to have fun.

Nothing is stopping you from creating and hosting your own event. Nothing at all.


No need to get vicious now, have some herbal tea. :D I have found that explorer-led events get pitifully few visitors. The last D'ni Olympics that I'm aware of was in UU, and it was different then. But if you insist, I can announce an event.

Come to the Mid-Episode Ae'gura Party!!
Events include:
Dance party
D'ni Olympics
Poem readings
and much more!!

Held 2 weeks after the first Saturday of each episode.

Come one, come all!!

Let's make this a real invitation to see how many ppl show.

_________________
The D'ni Wiki - For anything and everything Myst!
Name: Di Gama, KI: was 00555395, now 03320100
[3].[3][13][12][9][15][18][23][14]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
If you're really ambitious, you can always try making an age.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:09 pm
Posts: 272
Location: Chicago, IL
di gama wrote:
I know that Cyan has suggested that fan-created content is a possibility in the future, and I hate to be a spoil-sport, but I just don't see it happening. I am gunning for it like everyone else (if you could see me you'd see my black Writer's Guild shirt too), but the fact is that fan ages are simply not of the same quality as Cyan's own ages, not to mention that unless they provide their own tools (unlikely), they will need to show the innards of the game way more than they would be comfortable with.


I don't see this happening either, it would take a lot of capital, which they don't have to even upgrade or create vast new ages with: This would be a huge undertaking, that would take many people to do, which they don't have.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: