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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:08 pm 
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@Ghame: Adam has every right to that imager, as he is as close to a "leader" as the Guild of Writers has. He admins the forums, and is a "councilor.

Some people were uploading irrelevant /rubbish/ unrelated to the "Writing of ages", pictures of pictures on the imager, pictures of pictures of pictures... Massively large text, etc. If it was relevant, then, sure, maybe. But, these imagers are there for a /reason/. and that sure isn't "pretty pictures". Sorry. But if you want to put pretty pictures up.. do it in a Bevin. =/


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:23 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
@Ghame: Adam has every right to that imager, as he is as close to a "leader" as the Guild of Writers has. He admins the forums, and is a "councilor.

Some people were uploading irrelevant /rubbish/ unrelated to the "Writing of ages", pictures of pictures on the imager, pictures of pictures of pictures... Massively large text, etc. If it was relevant, then, sure, maybe. But, these imagers are there for a /reason/. and that sure isn't "pretty pictures". Sorry. But if you want to put pretty pictures up.. do it in a Bevin. =/


Sorry - I'm going to argue that.

Please show where it says "Adam has every right"? He has no more or less rights than anyone else. Its no more his than it is mine or anyone elses. Just because he is forum admin and whatever does not mean people have to go to him for his personal permission and approval. Guild leader or not. As far as I'm concerned, he's just another explorer.

Those imagers are there, because the person(s) who built the Age put them there. If it is 'wrong' for KI shots to be there, then they would have been designed so that they could not do that. If people want to stick up pretty pictures, as far as I'm concerned, they have every right to - because the game allows them to do exactly that.

To take that further, if the imagers were for the exclusive and sole use of a few individuals, then they would be locked in such a way that only they could use them. As it is - they are not. They are public. Anyone can use them. Why not take the next step and tell people not to put on a black shirt unless you apply for permission and approval from GoW?

I am not condeming or condoning the loading of KI shots - perhaps pretty pictures should be on the Bevin imager - but I condem individuals who think they have the right to tell others what to do. Guild business or not. I would even ask the question if this guild has any official status or not with Cyan and what thier take on this "Imager-hogging" stance is.

I think this "guild property" attitude is extremley conterproductive, especially to the new player who finds that "some group of people" are telling them what they can or cannot do when they have no authority to do so.

Sophia wrote:
As long as none of these groups have official status, anything goes... until Cyan says otherwise.


Which sums up my feelings as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Sophia wrote:
As long as none of these groups have official status, anything goes... until Cyan says otherwise.

The key statement here is in bold and that is what is happening until Cyan says otherwise.

No argument from me... :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:39 pm 
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Ghame wrote:
Those imagers are there, because the person(s) who built the Age put them there. If it is 'wrong' for KI shots to be there, then they would have been designed so that they could not do that. If people want to stick up pretty pictures, as far as I'm concerned, they have every right to - because the game allows them to do exactly that.

To take that further, if the imagers were for the exclusive and sole use of a few individuals, then they would be locked in such a way that only they could use them. As it is - they are not. They are public. Anyone can use them. Why not take the next step and tell people not to put on a black shirt unless you apply for permission and approval from GoW?


I'm not going to speak for Cyan's position, but allow me to elucidate a bit more on why the Guild shirts and the imagers in the Guild Pubs work the way they do.

Cyan has for quite some time been under a fair amount of pressure from the community to implement Guilds in Uru. The stuff in Kirel and the associated Guild Pubs were a first baby step along the path to making that possible, and things are miles from where they need to be for a final implementation. Essential concepts like group management and membership are almost entirely lacking from the KI interface, and the Guild shirts, being free to wear and swap around, are a poor mechanism at best for indicating if someone is a member of a given Guild. At the time they were made available, the purpose of the shirts was to enable you to show support for a given Guild, not join it. More on the Guild membership thing later though.

Because the KI lacks the ability to differentiate explorers based on any sort of membership role beyond a neighborhood assignment, and because the Guild shirts are not intended to be the sole determining factor of membership, the Pub imagers are incapable of being locked down without drastically overhauling the fundamental communications tool in the game, which is something Cyan certainly did not have the time or money to execute, nor was it absolutely necessary in order to get the ball rolling on discussing the Guilds in an in-game fashion.

Now, because the Pub imagers are in the Guild Pubs, and you can only get to a Guild Pub if you're in possession of a t-shirt for that Guild, I think there's a reasonable expectation on the part of the Pub's users that it be reserved for Guild-related business. Obviously there's no way to enforce this, but as a matter of etiquette, I think asking players to be considerate of the intended purpose of the imagers is a perfectly acceptable practice, and being forgiving of players who are unaware of it is obviously an important part of executing it. I don't think anyone in the Guild Pubs would openly castigate a new player for uploading something to what appears for all intents and purposes like a public imager simply because they don't know any better. I would hope that an ideal resolution to a conflict of this nature would be to politely explain to the new player what the Pubs are, and why it's somewhat important that the Guild be able to display their own information on the imager, rather than it being a public free-for-all. No yelling, no flaming, no ordering people around, just educating them and asking them to respect a minor etiquette-oriented practice.

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I am not condeming or condoning the loading of KI shots - perhaps pretty pictures should be on the Bevin imager - but I condem individuals who think they have the right to tell others what to do. Guild business or not. I would even ask the question if this guild has any official status or not with Cyan and what thier take on this "Imager-hogging" stance is.


Again while I can't give you Cyan's position on "imager-hogging" as you've dubbed it, I can say with a pretty fair amount of certitude that the organizations and individuals in the Guilds of Greeters, Writers, Maintainers, Cartographers, Messengers, and Archivists (as well as the D'ni Linguistic Fellowship, which has sort of taken up the fallen banner of the Guild of Linguists) have all been, to some extent or other, recognized by Cyan through their interactions with them. For example, back when the plan to open-source Uru was first announced, it was the Guild of Messengers who were given the announcement. The organizations representing the Guilds of Writers, Maintainers, and Archivists were all explicitly called out as essential contributors in the development of player-created content in the context of an expanded D'ni universe.

The Guilds we have are grassroots-created organizations of like-minded explorers who have taken up Cyan's call to action in creating them, and have organically created their own internal organizations and policies for membership and advancement. Just because Cyan doesn't maintain a roster of Guild membership or presently have the ability to create an in-game system for Guild participation and hierarchy doesn't delegitimize their place in the community.

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I think this "guild property" attitude is extremley conterproductive, especially to the new player who finds that "some group of people" are telling them what they can or cannot do when they have no authority to do so.


Personally, I would argue that the "you can't tell me what to do" / "how dare you try to organize this mess!" attitude is far more counterproductive to the ongoing effort of rebuilding Uru as a player-created world than trying to do anything to bring some order to the technical limitation-induced chaos.

So let's do it this way: the Guilds as they exist have no ability to influence, expand, or control the game's content because Cyan has not had the time or money to make such things possible. However, Cyan has historically worked with each of these groups to foster their efforts and bring them into the process of making MOUL a game focused more on player-created content, and the community as a whole has largely accepted the legitimacy of the various people running the Guilds that we have. So, please respect the request, at least on the part of the Guild of Messengers, that the imager in their Pub be reserved for Guild-related postings, and engage new players in a constructive manner by educating them, not chastising them, if/when they upload something of theirs to the imager because they don't know that they shouldn't.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:48 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
@Ghame: Adam has every right to that imager, as he is as close to a "leader" as the Guild of Writers has. He admins the forums, and is a "councilor.

Some people were uploading irrelevant /rubbish/ unrelated to the "Writing of ages", pictures of pictures on the imager, pictures of pictures of pictures... Massively large text, etc. If it was relevant, then, sure, maybe. But, these imagers are there for a /reason/. and that sure isn't "pretty pictures". Sorry. But if you want to put pretty pictures up.. do it in a Bevin. =/

I disagree with that. I think mostly like Ghame. Ghame’s logic on deciding how the imagers are to be used is practical logic, impeccable. I personally think there is currently no purpose to the Guild Pub Imagers because Cyan is not active in the story. It is up to fans to decide how they will be used and Ghame’s thinking is practical.

Since the in Cavern guilds are generally IC guilds the leader of an out of cavern guild/club has no more standing than any other in cavern player.

Unless you have seen some rules that Cyan plans to enforce, it is pretty much a free for all and a matter of manners and respect. I think we have seen in the forums which players have manners and respect their fellow players and which don’t. I expect the same behaviors to be exhibited by the same players in Cavern. We’ll see how problems develop and who is at the center of those messes.

Thinking any player has more rights than another is a first step down the wrong path. Thinking that an OOC guild ‘owns’ the In Cavern Guild Pub Imagers… opens a whole can of worms. Be smart avoid those problems.

I think playing nice means that those of us not in an IC guild respect imager loads of those in an IC guild. Trying to impose rules on those in Cavern… I can’t see as working.

How the imagers in a Bevin are used is pretty much up to the members of the Bevin, which I see as an IC thing. It also points out the consideration a group may chose to exercise over who they invite into their Bevin.

From my perspective anyone that is role playing in Cavern has a bit more right to use the imagers. But, since there is no real way to know who those people are, even that can't be implemented.

The Guild Imagers are another matter than the Bevin Imagers as they are open to anyone that picks up a T-shirt. We have no control over who picks up a shirt. AFAIK, we can’t even know who has joined the In Cavern Guild. We have far less control over those Guild Imagers. Anyone trying to impose their will on the rest of the community is going to have problems and challenges. We’ve been through those types of problems. Now we’ll see who has learned from prior experiences…

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
Since the in Cavern guilds are generally IC guilds the leader of an out of cavern guild/club has no more standing than any other in cavern player.


This confuses me.

The "Guilds" in the Cavern only exist because Cyan wanted to work with the community to bring existing organizations into the Cavern in a way that mirrored the D'ni structure of Guilds (by no means have they done a terribly good job of it thus far, but they're trying). By themselves these Guilds have no members, no abilities, no authority, no structure, and no purpose. They are shells to be used by the Guild organizations in our community to extend their efforts into the Cavern in an IC way.

For example, the Greeters exist because a group of players saw a need for some form of group dedicated to helping newcomers to the game and the series. They discussed this need with Cyan in an OOC way, because that's the practical manner for getting these sorts of things done. Their Guild was then incorporated into the game, where it exists as an IC organization, but also as an OOC group on the Guild of Greeters website, which hosts numerous OOC guides to the game. There is no difference between the IC Guild of Greeters and the OOC Guild of Greeters. It's just the Guild of Greeters. It exists in both contexts at the same time, because it's impossible for them to operate effectively when they're strictly limited to exclusively IC or OOC roles. The people who run the Guild of Greeters operate the Guild's website and also manage and coordinate its members in the Cavern.

Similarly, the new explorer-run Guild of Writers in the game lore of Uru exists because Cyan wanted to create a system whereby it could recognize the efforts of players to do OOC work (like building Ages) and integrate it into the game using the lore of the Myst universe as a justification. The Guild of Writers that exists OOC is the Guild of Writers in the Cavern. They're not separate groups.

Uru simply has no system for officiating this in-game, so we're left with the "show of support" t-shirts and the Guild Pubs as the only ways of even beginning to bring the Guilds into the Cavern, and the capabilities afforded by this implementation are limited at best.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:34 pm 
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hehehe, I started a debate!
((one of my secret ninja skillz))

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:43 pm 
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Thank you for telling me that I am wasting my time. You do realize that I am a college student with sporadic (read: next to no) income and am actually paying money every month to keep the Guild of Writers online? I do not accept donations either (there are a few here who can attest to that fact).

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:29 pm 
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Yeah, this is why I wrote that FAQ entry primarily about the Guild web sites and forums, and mentioned the Pubs only as meeting places.

I think we are all agreeing that the in-Cavern Guild mechanism (shirts, pubs, imagers) is

- a very early attempt
- which Cyan did not have the resources to develop further;
- therefore, a poor tool for Guild organizing and communicating.

We can argue about how the images *should* be used, but I'd rather not -- the point is that the current system has no practical way to resolve those arguments. That's (one reason) *why* the Guilds have web sites.

I guess I'm saying that I don't expect to rely on the Writer's Pub imager, but I don't intend to get bent out of shape about its unreliability either.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:14 pm 
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Spot on Alahmnat.

One of the biggest counter-productive elements of these IC/OOC issue is it forces new & 0ld explorers into choosing sides and fragments those that don’t into yet a third group even more removed from the first two.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:27 pm 
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semplerfi wrote:
Spot on Alahmnat.

One of the biggest counter-productive elements of these IC/OOC issue is it forces new & 0ld explorers into choosing sides and fragments those that don’t into yet a third group even more removed from the first two.


... isn't there supposed to be a 'war' going on between two sides of the DRC or something? ((according to storyline I gathered from UruCC))
In which case, wouldn't it be IC to choose 'sides'? :P

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:24 am 
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HypnoPants wrote:
... isn't there supposed to be a 'war' going on between two sides of the DRC or something? ((according to storyline I gathered from UruCC))
In which case, wouldn't it be IC to choose 'sides'? :P

My post has nothing to do with the UruCC and or current over-arcing story lines. :wink:

IMHO what is counter-productive is starting up the 0ld IC/OOC wars again. It fragments this already divided gaming community even more and runs people off.

Survival of this game means keeping 0ld players and bringing in new ones.

I am not looking for an argument or debate, just pointing out the obvious.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:47 am 
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That Cyan once intended to do something with the OOC guilds in an IC way for now is moot because Cyan is not participating at that level. That will likely change. Rand has said he is thinking of using the GoW and GoMa to help bring in fan ages. However, the GoMa leadership stepped down and Nyn just maintains the site and forum along with a couple of moderators. (The GoMa server has literally melted tonight according to a Nyn Tweet 60min ago) There are certainly enough people that have problems with the GoW/GoMa and other guilds that it is a legitimate question to ask if the OOC GoW or any OOC guild is the people Cyan/Rand thinks of when thinking of the guilds.

The Guilds both IC and OOC existed before Cyan brought them into the game. People repeatedly say Cyan created them. I disagree. The fans did. Cyan began to use OOC guilds and brought the Restored OOC Guilds in Cavern in an IC way.

Until things change, the idea IC Guild shells are to be used by the OOC Guild organizations doesn’t really work. Any group of In Cavern players could use them. How would an OOC guild enforce their ownership of the IC Guild in AGAIN without Cyan’s help? They can’t. Trying will just start fights. One can hope for politeness but that went out the window with many fans long ago, which is why I would avoid setting up a privileged class in AGAIN.

Alahmnat , your example of the Greeters is valid. But since Cyan is not currently working with guilds or providing ResEng’s means it is not in play. That the greeters are reforming and active is nice. But do they really have any official standing In Cavern? I think for now, no. They are just more fans helping out. Respecting their rights to use the Pub Viewer is fine. Trying to tell people the Messengers have some privilege over others is a problem.

We will eventually have fan run shards, or so we think. On a GoW run shard I can see GoW controlling the IC guild in that shard. The shard owner would be able to enforce that. But will that mean they control it in the AGAIN shard? We don’t know. Will they be able to control other shards? I don’t think so. Until we reach that stage I would put off trying to re-establish control of IC guilds by OOC guilds.

Alahmnat wrote:
[…] no system for officiating […]


You have stated the heart of the problem. belford restates it. Because this is what we have now, Ghame’s practical rationalization of what defines ownership and usage rights makes more sense. Those trying to stake out territory in AGAIN and control any part of the game will just create problems. Trying to explain to new players this is the way it is because some group of players has decided it is based on history, won’t work well. You are new… so do it our way… that is going to come across as pretty arrogant and rude.

Until Cyan decides to participate and control the guilds, all of this can, at best, only be shared on a level playing field. To do anything other than share and play nice together is just going to cause problems. Mutual respect of other players and equal sharing of the resources is the only thing I see that will work.

Also, one can’t tell which image or text they will bump out when one uploads the imager. So, I think it is up to the IC guild players to keep their important loads online. Telling others to not load to the imagers is impractical.

We have already seen people in the community decide they know how things should be and strive impose their ideas. They are intolerant of any other ideas and those that disagree with them. Several are also intolerant of others doing as they choose. They don’t seem to comprehend the ideas of independent cooperation and freedom. It finally reached a level where a significant number of people wanted to remain guild free. Now it’s a matter of who learned from past experiences and who didn’t.

Semplerfi, I disagree. There is nothing that FORCES players to decide about IC/OOC. They are free to choose. It is how those with agendas treat them that I see as the problem. It is not understanding IC-play that gets many upset.

HypnoPants, there was a measure of tension to be introduced to the game by choosing sides. That was for IC play. Because of the nature of how Uru IC play developed many missed the point and hard feelings bled over to RL.

Adam, that you are in THIS thread asking if you wasted your time is rather revealing.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:04 am 
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Nalates wrote:
Trying to tell people the Messengers have some privilege over others is a problem.


Just want to clarify something. The Guild of Messengers, as far as I am concerned, never said that the GoMe imager in the Pub is for "messengers" posting news only. The people running the IC and OCC GoMe don't claim to have privileges over others.

I just want to make sure our reputation say intact. ;) We are all very friendly people. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:12 am 
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Nalates wrote:
Adam, that you are in THIS thread asking if you wasted your time is rather revealing.


This post proves that you put words in people's mouths.

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