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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:32 am 
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semplerfi wrote:
HypnoPants wrote:
... isn't there supposed to be a 'war' going on between two sides of the DRC or something? ((according to storyline I gathered from UruCC))
In which case, wouldn't it be IC to choose 'sides'? :P

My post has nothing to do with the UruCC and or current over-arcing story lines. :wink:

IMHO what is counter-productive is starting up the 0ld IC/OOC wars again. It fragments this already divided gaming community even more and runs people off.

Survival of this game means keeping 0ld players and bringing in new ones.

I am not looking for an argument or debate, just pointing out the obvious.


I suppose, I like debates though... although I wouldn't be able to join, because I know nothing of the topic...
I am a new player :)
New to both Uru and the Myst series itself, so new that I've just recently reached the stoneship age in realMyst :P

Edit: actually I had an idea once about meeting Zandi(played by an actor, not the NPC one) and calling out to him as a burger and traitor... and then when asked why... I stumble over myself, stuttering and trying to come up with an idea to explain myself... going on about an alternate universe I had visited(UruCC) through a partially broken link... mumbling about wormholes and flares(*cough stargate, cough cough*)... and that I had spent hundreds of years there in a universe devoid of life... as it was trapped in time, I wouldn't die from hunger, I would simply go insane! ... and then I got bored of being insane and became sane again.
Learning all I could about D'ni technology, and having endless time to surpass even the D'ni in their own science... I managed to repair the link and came back... but being there left a few scars through my insanity... some of which being the journals left behind(again, this alternate universe was UruCC)... thus giving me a hatred of that universe's Zandi...

All that just from one long shower, heh.

I then went to my room and thought about all this, even coming up with me trying to Relto out while mumbling under my breath after cursing Zandi out loud... but he had grabbed my arm, thus bringing him with me... forcing me to explain my story to him.


ANYWAYS... I'm new to the Myst series, as I said, so this little RP-story I came up with really can't be considered anything accurate because I haven't even made my way through Uru Live yet :P ... oh well, hope you enjoyed it :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:32 am 
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Nalates wrote:
Until Cyan decides to participate and control the guilds, all of this can, at best, only be shared on a level playing field. To do anything other than share and play nice together is just going to cause problems. Mutual respect of other players and equal sharing of the resources is the only thing I see that will work.

We have already seen people in the community decide they know how things should be and strive impose their ideas. They are intolerant of any other ideas and those that disagree with them. Several are also intolerant of others doing as they choose. They don’t seem to comprehend the ideas of independent cooperation and freedom. It finally reached a level where a significant number of people wanted to remain guild free. Now it’s a matter of who learned from past experiences and who didn’t.


Exactly!!!

This is the biggest problem with the Cavern at the moment - Intolerance, add to that arrogance. Just because someone is a 'guild official', they think that gives them all sorts of rights and sway over everything/anything Uru. Some claim they want to encourage contribution and participation, yet it seems to come with the condition you must "do it our way", "do as you're told" and "We are (sometimes "I am") the Guild and have the absolute final say in everything."

Breathtaking arrogance or what??

So, as Nalates says, people decide to leave or not to join. People just want to come into the game, have a bit of fun and perhaps even have a stab at trying thier hand thier own Age building, maybe even suggest an idea or something.

What people don't want is to be told what they can/cannot do. They don't want to get invloved in petty spats and squabbles when these 'guild members' start dictating what they think is right and wrong (always from thier perspective, never from the game's).

In many ways, having guilds is a bad idea. For a number of people, its just an ego trip for those who yearn for power and domination over others. As i have said, they want contribution, but it comes at a price.

And for me, that price is far too high and want nothing to do with it.

This is precisely what this game does not need right now. We have waited long and hard for MOULa to reappear, we have the oppertunity to make Cavern everything it should be, new people are coming in with fresh ideas, there is a bucketload of player Ages just waiting to be brought in...in many ways, the future of the Cavern has never been better.

Yet to my utter amazement, the same, same, tired old egos and arguements are being trawled up to the surface again. This has been gone over again and again, I even heard it mentioned in the Cavern Today podcasts....

Everyone sees the problem, everyone knows the problem, yet it seems the same old people are causing the problem. Do we really, really need any of this???

Perhaps if/when they have thier own Cavern, they can build thier own "People's Imperialistic D'ni Empire"...but don't try it here.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:57 am 
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Beleive it or not.

Right at the top of the Guilds forum on this site, there is a sticky thread called...

Key links for all guilds...click here

Btw, sticky threads do not mean off limit. It means the moderators have decided that such threads will always stay on top of a forum(s). (or on top of other threads)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:53 pm 
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Ghame, it seems to me that you're exagerating.

I've been (and I am) involved in some Guilds but I've never seen anything of what you're saying in them. I just see people, from this community, thinking the same things you (we) all think here. We don't want the old Imperialistic D'ni Empire back. I've just seen people struggling for figuring out how to create/maintain/guide a guild. The guild with most strict rules is the GoG from what I see, with the acceptance policy. But I must say I see the reason behind that: if you want to organize a good system for suppporting explorers in the cavern you can't rely on people you know nothing of (Do they have enough experience to guide new players? Are they really willing to Greet people or are just here to say they're in a Guild and do nothing?).

Yes, sometimes they have rules and leaders, but how can you make a group behave as a single entity without them? You need something that prevents the members to go in a million of different directions neutralizing the effort. Then, nobody has never said you can't discuss the rules and take your suggestions and points of view, at least not in the Guilds I've been in. Both GoMa (well...when it was active) and GoMe are always open for new suggestions on rules, structure ecc. Right now the GoMe is trying to understand how to better serve the community in this new situation of MOULa. However, at the GoMe we always say that the first rule is to have fun, as long as you are here to have fun and relax from your RL it is ok; when it starts getting more similar to a work/job with no fun then it's better that you stop a moment and ask yourself why you're here; this is a game guys, keep it simple and fun. :)

I've got the feeling that many people don't trust the Guilds just because of what they heard the Guilds did in the old D'ni. Well...at least we know that Yeesha's lessons have been learned very well and people won't allow the guilds to become like those in the Myst Lore (sometimes we forget it is just a story, eh? :lol: ). All of this didn't happen when the various groups didn't have "Guild" in their name, they are just tring to follow what Cyan had in mind. The Guilds are here to serve the community, that must remain their first objective and rule.

And believe it or not even the people that form the Guilds come from this community, they didn't come out of nowhere, they know well we don't want someone to have power over the other players. They are the same people who enjoyed staying together in the Is It Uru Yet? Thread and have a Delin run with friends. I don't see big bad people trying to gain power over the Cavern and explorers, really. I've particularly seen the GoMa leaders being seen like that, especially when it came to the FCAL licences; they were not trying to enforce anything, they just tryed to figure out how to handle them in the best way since it Cyan itself that asked them (with the GoW and GoA) to do that. If you didn't like what came out from their discussions, the forums were always open for you to bring your ideas.
I don't know what the GoMe seems from the outside, but I can say that they (we) are only a little bunch of people (very little right now) that's trying to figure out what's the best way to spread information in the Cavern. We are really a group of crazy and funny guys...not at all the serious business men that the word "Guild" makes appear many people mind :lol:

So, in the end, my suggestion is to come looking inside the Guilds. What's behind the facade you see? Go looking at how the guilds work at their home places and understand what they are doing before you scream "arrogant" and "looking for power" to anyone, often you get the impressions of something from the words you hear and even more often people dont' express themselves in the better way to let to understand what they are meaning. They are just explorers like anhone here; calm down, have fun and help others if you can, that's all.

Did you realize that all of this discussion came out from a couple of imagers? :lol: Guys we must really love this game.

All Uru Needs is Love 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:19 pm 
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Ghame wrote:
This is the biggest problem with the Cavern at the moment - Intolerance, add to that arrogance. Just because someone is a 'guild official', they think that gives them all sorts of rights and sway over everything/anything Uru. Some claim they want to encourage contribution and participation, yet it seems to come with the condition you must "do it our way", "do as you're told" and "We are (sometimes "I am") the Guild and have the absolute final say in everything."


You have obviously not read the Guild of Writers forum nor read its accepted structure document. I see no point in battling your ignorance until you rectify it and give yourself a rudimentary education on that which you attack baselessly.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:43 pm 
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Please can we calm down people? Adam I think you could have stated that in a better way, althought I can agree that many people attack the guilds without knowing exactly what they are talking about. However, I've already said that in my own post :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:50 pm 
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Leonardo wrote:
Adam I think you could have stated that in a better way


Sorry, I'm just responding in the same attitude that has been shown to me ;)

Don't worry, you're not on my secret list of people whose ages will never become part of "the GUILD." *Adam snorts*

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:20 pm 
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AdamJohnso wrote:
Don't worry, you're not on my secret list of people whose ages will never become part of "the GUILD." *Adam snorts*
ROFLOL

All I can add to this is that I used to and still do read a lot of posts on a lot of forums on a daily basis. Normally twice a day watching for news and ideas for the guild paper. I did this for two years trying to keep the community informed and therefore hopefully they still felt part of a community. My point is that when you read as much as I do/did you get a sense of what is true and what is rumour or sour grapes.

On the whole most people are busy doing there own thing and not thinking of ways to dominate or control anything. The only thing some wish to control (which is a strong word) is how a guild/group/society, whatever you want to calll it, operates. Which in my mind shows these people care enough to go out of their way to do something and not just talk about it.

I am not defending individual behavour as some things as Al said can be resovled in a nicer way but as in the guild sense I don't see the controling nature that some claim to be there.

Another thing these groups have skills and talents that could enable us all to enjoy a longer MOUL but they all need help, new blood and ideas. What better way of helping and guiding others without one big massive Forum to wade through. Best spearding it about but I do see a need for more inter guild/group/society communication. All streaming news/events and etc through the GoMe a community portal if you like.

I think it is up to the community to understand that these groups can benifit this game and us and misinformation makes this a lot harder. So if we can please deal with facts and not let sour grapes get in the way of a good debate.

I see the point on the imagers and agree but to derail into a guild mad slinging match is silly and destructive.

For my part I think the all the groups are just likemind fans doing what they love. Lets embrace it.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:25 pm 
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Leonardo wrote:
Please can we calm down people? Adam I think you could have stated that in a better way, althought I can agree that many people attack the guilds without knowing exactly what they are talking about. However, I've already said that in my own post :wink:


Honestly, I think this is all giving me some good info from both sides :)
It's why I love debates... even if they seem more like arguments... you can learn a lot from both sides.
((After dealing with enough intelligent design fanatics... I've learned to not keep an ego during a debate, so I can see from their point of view as well... seriously, take a basic philosophy class, they teach you how to think critically and see from multiple points of view... something unnatural to nice person sapiens... but neccessary for bringing humanity into the future!))

Note: seeing the other side's point of view is also useful for winning a debate, because you can figure out how to counter their argument.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:17 pm 
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AdamJohnso wrote:
Ghame wrote:
This is the biggest problem with the Cavern at the moment - Intolerance, add to that arrogance. […]

You have obviously not read the Guild of Writers forum nor read its accepted structure document. I see no point in battling your ignorance until you rectify it and give yourself a rudimentary education on that which you attack baselessly.

Wow… that makes it clear how Ghame came to use the adjective arrogance. Trying to shift responsibility by justifying poor behavior on other poor behavior…

Leonardo wrote:
I've been (and I am) involved in some Guilds but I've never seen anything of what you're saying in them. […]

I agree with much of that post and Szark’s. I also believe many people confuse the Historic Guilds and IC story about them and the Restored IC guilds of now with the OOC guilds. I suspect most new players don’t realize there is a difference. Older fans seldom make it easy for new players to understand the differences.

On rules, Leonardo asks,“ but how can you make a group behave as a single entity without them? While subtle consider a significant difference in thinking, rules are for management. Their purpose is to create uniformity of action and group appearance, consistency of operation (think bookkeeping processes more than behavior) and provide fairness. Those that work with volunteer organizations understand that volunteers are controlled mostly by either being allowed to help or removed from the organization. There is little else, in the way of control/enforcement, which works in volunteer organizations. (See: Surviving Poisonous People – 60+/- min)

Leonardo wrote:
I've particularly seen the GoMa leaders being seen like that, especially when it came to the FCAL licences; they were not trying to enforce anything, they just tryed to figure out how to handle them in the best way since it Cyan itself that asked them (with the GoW and GoA) to do that.

I saw/see the same. There are numerous threads on those issues. Add in the ones over what is and is not copyright volition and several fans were running agendas on the GoMa. In spite of facts many fans chose to make libelous posts contradicting them and creating additional problems. Others made poor judgments based on those erroneous posts because they did not look beyond an unthinking emotional response. Several people began participating in an effort to challenge libelous posts when and where ever seen. Some fans cannot distinguish the difference between a challenge to an idea and a personal attack. So, they saw a defensive effort motivated to providing factual information to keep the community united as an effort to control.

Some fans ran out of patience and became rude. Others can’t tolerate their viewpoint being challenged, and others have strong biases they can't see past. Any question of discussion of issues that conflict with or challenge those can start a flame war, a basic ‘don’t like what they said, shout and insult them down’ response. The result is many walk on egg shells. Others are shocked at the anger and mean spirited posts. It’s individual fan behavior far more than guilds and their rules and efforts that are a problem. See: Standards for Discussion & Debate

Leonardo wrote:
So, in the end, my suggestion is to come looking inside the Guilds. […]

That is a smart and wise thing to do. It is also more effort than many fans will put in. I suspect much of the motivation for this thread is less from actual recent actions than from an accumulated experience with the people involved and past issues. Attributing the behavior of an individual, even if a guild leader, to a guild is unreasonable and writing as if that were the case is detrimental to the community. Checking out the guilds first would be a big step to solving many problems.

Personality, agenda, and misinformation has been and is more the problem In Cavern than guilds. If guilds are taken out of the equation, responsibility for problems more clearly falls on problem individuals and their behavior.

For unity and harmony in Cavern I suggest that any special rights for guilds, guild leadership, or any group be avoided until we know open source will work and how evolved Cyan will be in AGAIN. Respecting each other as individuals will result in the respect of Messengers’ and other guild's imager loads.

HypnoPants wrote:
Honestly, I think this is all giving me some good info from both sides […]

Good way to look at it.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:26 pm 
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HypnoPants wrote:
Honestly, I think this is all giving me some good info from both sides […]

Nalates wrote:
Good way to look at it.


heh, I was just going to give you a reputation point or a Thank You on the post... but apparently this forum doesn't have those features :P
So thanks :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:38 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
AdamJohnso wrote:
Ghame wrote:
This is the biggest problem with the Cavern at the moment - Intolerance, add to that arrogance. […]

You have obviously not read the Guild of Writers forum nor read its accepted structure document. I see no point in battling your ignorance until you rectify it and give yourself a rudimentary education on that which you attack baselessly.

Wow… that makes it clear how Ghame came to use the adjective arrogance. Trying to shift responsibility by justifying poor behavior on other poor behavior…


Sorry, but I don't care when a hypocritical troll insults me.

Please insert a quarter to play Second Life: Trolling Live.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:12 pm 
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Thank you all for your contribution to this thread.
What started as a discussion about the Guilds did change into something we do not like to see here.
If you want to discuss in this way, please find another place to do so.
Discussions like this are not acceptable on the MOUL forums.


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