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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:20 pm 
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The Guild of Greeters - Discussion thread which was recently locked began as a debate about whether the GoG was responsible for retention of players in Uru. I believe the final concensus was that retention of players is everyone’s responsilbility and GoG members would appreciate it if people would stop blaming their guild. But, in the process, the thread devolved into discussion about guild operations and I believe the final concensus there was – if you don’t like it, here are your options:

:!: - Join the guild and change it from within, but the guild is currently on "hiatus" and not accepting new applications.

:!: - If you’re a member of the guild, you can voice your opinion, but it will likely be met with accusations of attempting to destroy the guild from within.

:!: - Start your own guild, but keep in mind that the GoG is the only guild officially recognized and santioned by Cyan as proven by the recent act of making the guild’s hood rise to the top of the nexus list.

It has been noted that the Guild of Greeters was originally created to be an official representative of Cyan and that it was necessary to maintain a rigid guild structure and strict application and membership policy in order to support Uru as a commerical venture.

Now that Uru is no longer a commerical venture… what do you think should happen?

Should the Guild of Greeters change with the times and be more open in both its membership and discussions?

Is it fair for Cyan to sanction a group that has a closed membership policy?

Can we please have an open and civil discussion about this?

Disclosure: I am a Greeter (since April 2007) and I'm probably risking my membership by making this post, but I don’t wish to see the guild die from stagnation and I’m frustrated by the inability to freely voice my opinion about it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Looks like I posted too early to the other thread. I'll quote myself here:

JWPlatt wrote:
Just make it so motivated people can join, be active in, and influence the GoG and you don't need a new anything. You can always move furniture or build a new house, but your problems remain the same or there's just a different set of them. Better to fix what you have. Like the Nexus list.

I'd suggest constructive public pressure on, or a public explanation of contraindications from, the admins/GMs/whatevers of the GoG about why membership is closed and how it can be reopened. It could, for example, be in the form of emails and PMs to the admins from folks interested in being active in the GoG. Failing that, I suppose Cyan needs to look at their Charter, asking for yet more of their time to do something entirely within the power of the community. Far better to solve the problems from within and without by the collective community.

I do NOT advise hashing it out in public anywhere but on the GoG forums, except with constructive ideas. Otherwise, the risk is a public backlash with both "sides" looking not so welcoming.

I DO suggest locking all of the GoG's hidden forums, archiving them, and keeping them hidden for reasons of grandfathered privacy. Then open public forums to all GoG forum members for the same purpose of running the Guild.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:28 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Looks like I posted too early to the other thread. I'll quote myself here:
I'd suggest constructive public pressure on, or a public explanation of contraindications from, the admins/GMs/whatevers of the GoG about why membership is closed and how it can be reopened.

That answer that has given by the GMs so far is that membership will reopen they determine for themselves that there are enough new players coming in to warrant more Greeters.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:37 pm 
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One problem with Uru is that its status is still ambiguous. No one is really sure the Cavern will be open next week or next month. This is why the Greeters are still up in the air too.

I think there's an easy way around this problem: Yes, Greeters greet, but we (I've been a member since 2006) don't have an exclusive franchise. Many people are good at helping new Explorers. So, if you want to help folks, hang out in the City or in a neighborhood and respond kindly when someone asks for help.

There are benefits to the Greeter "system." One is that we stress not spoiling the game; rather, give just enough of a hint to get a stuck Explorer on their way again. Many would-be helpers in the game are eager to spill all the beans they can, which removes the pleasure of discovery for the new player. At the same time I also recognize that there are folks who want a complete solution. Helping folks isn't as easy as many might think because you're going to be attempting to balance on a knife edge, and someone will blame you for something if it goes badly. I've been on both sides of this for many years.

The Guild of Greeters does have an official sanction from Cyan. This does not give us any special privileges. We find out things the same way everyone else does: through forums and posts by Cyan people. The Guild really came about because a couple of people got together and decided it would be a good idea. It's still a good idea.

The objective of Greeting is to help other Explorers. Not to lord it over other Cavern residents, nor to be proud of being the only sanctioned Guild, nor to wear a nifty shirt. It's certainly not to show off how much one knows about Uru. A Greeter is focused only on helping others along the Uru journey in as unobtrusive way as possible. The membership process is designed to bring in people who will walk this very delicate path.

From the outside: "Oh... look! They have a special shirt. They must have an "in" with Cyan!"
From the inside: Oh, man... I hope I didn't drive that person away with that little mistake. And how many others will hear about it and come down on the GoG...

This post is *my opinion* and is not to be read as anything official from the Guild of Greeters.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:44 pm 
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*crawls out from under the rock*

Lord Chaos wrote:
One problem with Uru is that its status is still ambiguous. No one is really sure the Cavern will be open next week or next month. This is why the Greeters are still up in the air too.


I find that a flawed argument personally. It comes down to a simple concept.

Is there new players to help?

Yes? Then help.

No? Then don't.

As it stands there are new players to help. And whilst I agree with other comments that it is also down to the community to help and welcome them, the Guild of Greeters specifically take this job to carry out, so if they're not around then something needs to be changed.

I've been following the discussions about the Greeters over the course of the last week or so. I've seen a lot of comments regarding "joining and changing from the inside". A noble idea, however, the structure of the Guild of Greeters has been flawed since its inception, back in 03. Very little has changed since, in fact from what I've heard about the inner workings it actually got worse. So there will be those who would be skeptical about seeing change actually take place, especially in light of a GM who doesn't seem to want change.


So how could the Greeters be steered back on the path?


Leadership:

As it seemingly stands, the GM of the Guild of Greeters doesn't have a term time, they can stay indefinitely if they want, a concept that perhaps does the Guild more harm than good if a GM's views are counterproductive to the Guild.

It seems that a term time for a GM needs to be introduced, with the voting of a new GM a public affair, transparent and voted on by GoG members, not secret groups within secret groups and so forth, and again the behind the doors mentality has been around since the guild's inception.

The D'ni guilds and the nonsense that went with it was not a guide book of how to run a guild, it's a demonstration how not to (like a government using 1984 on how to set up their administration).

Structure

Again more transparency, the Guild really, really needs to open up. It needs to be easier for people to become greeters if they want to. I would argue against a super open membership (ala GoW) as if you're Greeting I do believe you need to have some understanding of the game as well as etiquette on spoilers.

Not only that but the Greeter mechanism could use some tweaks. Instead of sticking to the GoG hood, get out into the open, Greet in the City, having a Greeter stationed at the Ferry Terminal would go a long way to helping new players who may not know to go to the GoG hood and decide to go to the City right away looking for a public area.

Reputation

JWPlatt wrote:
I DO suggest locking all of the GoG's hidden forums, archiving them, and keeping them hidden for reasons of grandfathered privacy. Then open public forums to all GoG forum members for the same purpose of running the Guild.


I think JWPlatt nailed it there.

The guild unfortunately has a reputation of being elitist, whether you choose to accept that or not, transparency will do a lot to curve that view.

Greeting should be a friendly, fun atmosphere, helping others for the benefit of the community, not self interest.

The old model of the GoG has perhaps served its purpose in the past, but it seems to be time for a change. And whilst I understand that this comment will no doubt come across as aggressive to some, I think that if certain people aren't willing to make the changes in the GoG that are needed then the explorer community needs to take the initiative and start a new group.


Ken Telinome wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
Looks like I posted too early to the other thread. I'll quote myself here:
I'd suggest constructive public pressure on, or a public explanation of contraindications from, the admins/GMs/whatevers of the GoG about why membership is closed and how it can be reopened.

That answer that has given by the GMs so far is that membership will reopen they determine for themselves that there are enough new players coming in to warrant more Greeters.


But it does warrant new Greeters, the Greeter population in game is small to the point of obscurity, if the Greeters you have aren't Greeting, then getting some new blood in that will seems like the logical next step.


Lord Chaos wrote:
The Guild of Greeters does have an official sanction from Cyan. This does not give us any special privileges. We find out things the same way everyone else does: through forums and posts by Cyan people. The Guild really came about because a couple of people got together and decided it would be a good idea. It's still a good idea.

The objective of Greeting is to help other Explorers. Not to lord it over other Cavern residents, nor to be proud of being the only sanctioned Guild, nor to wear a nifty shirt. It's certainly not to show off how much one knows about Uru. A Greeter is focused only on helping others along the Uru journey in as unobtrusive way as possible. The membership process is designed to bring in people who will walk this very delicate path.


Indeed, but it is a concept that some in the GOG hierarchy need to remember themselves :)

Tai'lahr wrote:
Disclosure: I am a Greeter (since April 2007) and I'm probably risking my membership by making this post, but I don’t wish to see the guild die from stagnation and I’m frustrated by the inability to freely voice my opinion about it.


Let's hope not, I tip my hat at you for being a greeter, recognizing the issues at hand and being open to the concept of change.

I hear the kettle boiling....*crawls back under the rock*


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
Ken Telinome wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
Looks like I posted too early to the other thread. I'll quote myself here:
I'd suggest constructive public pressure on, or a public explanation of contraindications from, the admins/GMs/whatevers of the GoG about why membership is closed and how it can be reopened.

That answer that has given by the GMs so far is that membership will reopen they determine for themselves that there are enough new players coming in to warrant more Greeters.


But it does warrant new Greeters, the Greeter population in game is small to the point of obscurity, if the Greeters you have aren't Greeting, then getting some new blood in that will seems like the logical next step.


Bingo. If the people involved aren't doing their job (for whatever reason, whether it be not wanting to do it or not being able to; whatever it is that's not the point right now), find people who can. And for some people, having that shirt will give them that extra special nudge they need to get going and greet.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:29 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
>>>snip
Tai'lahr wrote:
Disclosure: I am a Greeter (since April 2007) and I'm probably risking my membership by making this post, but I don’t wish to see the guild die from stagnation and I’m frustrated by the inability to freely voice my opinion about it.


Let's hope not, I tip my hat at you for being a greeter, recognizing the issues at hand and being open to the concept of change.>>>snip

And I tip my hat too. You are a long time positive proactive member and your 'Disclosure' is a symptom of the problem. It speaks for it self. :(


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:38 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
Leadership:

As it seemingly stands, the GM of the Guild of Greeters doesn't have a term time, they can stay indefinitely if they want, a concept that perhaps does the Guild more harm than good if a GM's views are counterproductive to the Guild.

It seems that a term time for a GM needs to be introduced, with the voting of a new GM a public affair, transparent and voted on by GoG members, not secret groups within secret groups and so forth, and again the behind the doors mentality has been around since the guild's inception.

The D'ni guilds and the nonsense that went with it was not a guide book of how to run a guild, it's a demonstration how not to (like a government using 1984 on how to set up their administration).

<snip snip>

But it does warrant new Greeters, the Greeter population in game is small to the point of obscurity, if the Greeters you have aren't Greeting, then getting some new blood in that will seems like the logical next step.


Disclaimer: My postings are not my opinion, but the answers I have been given to the same questions.

To the first point, in response to why the leadership will not assent to the democratic model: it is because the guild, trademarks, copyrights, etc. are "owned" unlike the other guilds.

To the second point, in response to why applications are not opened: while many, if not most others agree that the current population is enough to warrant open applications again, the leadership, who control membership, forum access, and the list of Greeters sent to Cyan for shirts, do not, and therefore, applications are not open.

EDIT: I can use grammar, I swear...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:16 pm 
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Ken Telinome wrote:
Tweek wrote:
Leadership:

As it seemingly stands, the GM of the Guild of Greeters doesn't have a term time, they can stay indefinitely if they want, a concept that perhaps does the Guild more harm than good if a GM's views are counterproductive to the Guild.

It seems that a term time for a GM needs to be introduced, with the voting of a new GM a public affair, transparent and voted on by GoG members, not secret groups within secret groups and so forth, and again the behind the doors mentality has been around since the guild's inception.

The D'ni guilds and the nonsense that went with it was not a guide book of how to run a guild, it's a demonstration how not to (like a government using 1984 on how to set up their administration).

<snip snip>

But it does warrant new Greeters, the Greeter population in game is small to the point of obscurity, if the Greeters you have aren't Greeting, then getting some new blood in that will seems like the logical next step.


Disclaimer: My postings are not my opinion, but the answers I have been given to the same questions.

To the first point, in response to why the leadership will not assent to the democratic model: it is because the guild, trademarks, copyrights, etc. are "owned" unlike the other guilds.


That really has no impact on things what-so-ever.

Copyrights and Trademarks come into play in terms of copyright and trademark violations. Having an open guild where new members are more easily accepted in and can vote on guild matters has no impact on the trademarks or copyrights.

Quote:
To the second point, in response to why applications are not opened: while many, if not most others agree that the current population is enough to warrant open applications again, the leadership, who control membership, forum access, and the list of Greeters sent to Cyan for shirts, do not, and therefore, applications are not open.

EDIT: I can use grammar, I swear...


Which is why nothing will change.

Majority of people are pushing for change, but a certain person is stomping their foot and resisting change, doing more damage to the guild than good.

Which is why the GoG needs a more democratic management policy, ability to select new GM's openly, the ability for votes of no confidence against existing GM's if they can't do the job properly, set term times so that the guild doesn't stagnate like it has for the last 8 years.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:21 pm 
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When MOULa started up, it was clearly stated that this was not the MOUL of old. Cyan involvement is minimal. The DRC did not come back in any official capacity. ResEngs are gone. New content is a distant dream. Phil is.....somewhere.

I'm a little surprised that there was even an expectation that the GoG would be back.

Back in the GameTap days, the greeters were an awesome asset to the game, in my experience, and walked the help/spoil razor's edge nicely. Personally, I'd like to see them, like the DRC, removed from active duty in the cavern. I agree there still should be people to help fellow explorers, but it's a new luminous algae cycle, so form a new group with a new name.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:36 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
Disclosure: ...I'm probably risking my membership by making this post, but I don’t wish to see the guild die from stagnation and I’m frustrated by the inability to freely voice my opinion about it.

I'm right there with ya Tai'!

I'll keep this short: I think Tweek outlines everything superbly. It's how I feel.

But I'd especially like to echo the call for transparency. If I'm honest, probably the thing I dislike the most is the secrecy. Secret groups within secret groups within secret groups is spot on. There are things I'd LOVE to put here, but I can't because I'm currently a Greeter.

We've seen every group make steps towards openness and transparency. This is so fitting considering that open-source is still coming. It is our destiny. It's time for the GoG to join the community in this regard.

nonlinear wrote:
I'm a little surprised that there was even an expectation that the GoG would be back...back in the GameTap days, the greeters were an awesome asset to the game.

I think you kinda answered your own question there. I could be wrong but I /think/ you're the first person I've heard say that. Consequently I'm a little surprised that there was even a possibility that someone wouldn't expect a staple group in MO:UL to return.

You're right though, this isn't MO:UL GT. But the GoG wasn't GT. All of the other guilds returned except the GoG.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:55 pm 
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It is so sad how we eat our own young in this community.

This is a game. But it is no longer a game I want any part of.

It unbelievably disappointing to watch how a humble post in response to significant evidence now that this game, far from growing at a steady rate, is actually fading ... a humble post meant to draw people AWAY from squabbles like this one to a conclusion, without saying it in so many words, that what is needed is a strong sense of a caring and embracing community who shares the responsibility of making sure the few newcomers who find ANY of us find us kind and helping.

The word "hiatus" was not an official announcement of any kind - it was simply an acknowledgement that the feeling the GoG hasn't been much present was a valid one. You call it arrogance, but it was meant as an act of humility.

And you may disagree with the decisions made at the GoG but the reasons are legitimate within the scope and history of that group.

Sadly, Cyan's request that we take it back home has not been honored here. I have watched this "discussion" now without comment if only to honor that request myself, but I am now so truly disappointed that some of my favourite people people who I have grown to respect a great deal and even in my own way, in the way of gamers with gamers, love, are now engaged here like this.

I have posted over here on these forums for years, but in the last year, I kept my head low. The squabbling is just too much. It's game. It's a game. It's a game.

I can't be sure but I think that is probably the first post, or at least one of the very few, I have ever put in here that had anything to do with the Greeters because like some of you I have always been proud to be part of the Greeters, but I post over here only as myself. In that capacity, I believe I have contributed a great deal to these forums and that mainly in the form of humour and kindness.

I can't tell you how much I see we have lost.

I just see all these geat people just going down such a nasty little narrow path, It saddens me to no end.

I will not be coming back to this game, or these forums, or this community.

Ever,

last squish to all
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:13 pm 
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Oh come on...come back to the game at least..you can take the forum out of the avvie... but you can't take the game out of the avvie...lol

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:17 pm 
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There's really no need to quit the game. I can understand the forum, but most of this never works its way into the game.

I can understand the desire to have discussions held in private, however I'd like to point out this from veralun's post:
Quote:
This thread will remain locked, as some of the issues raised in it are no longer valid in light of some recent changes that have taken place. However you are invited to resume civil discussion of the Guild of Greeters within a new thread here.


I'd say that this thread remained very civil and contained mainly suggestions and points on the situation at hand. And yes, this is a game, which I feel is why many of us are so frustrated with the way that this stuff is happening. It's a game, not a secret organization for the government. Do we NEED the greeters? Maybe not. Does having them help in any way? If it's functioning properly, then yes. And that's really all I have to say on the matter.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:12 am 
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Time to step into this discussion........
A little bit of history regarding the functioning of the guild of greeters.
Back in prologue we were all new players, except for the closed beta players. We came in by the thousands and we only had a few knowledge about how to communicate (KI) with each other. A lot of questions, and luckily there was the GoG (established out of former closed beta players) to assist. They did build up a site to have all the background info available, which was lacking on the DRC sites. It was quite a relief, they had put all the effort into it to explain the functions of the game.
After prologue closed, GoG was chosen to start up with UntilURU. We saw a lot of old players return all in hope for new developments. None was there so everybody was a greeter. No special greeter needed.
Same happened with D'mala. No specific changes and then on to MOUL gametap.
Again nothing special was added, except for some new KI functions and again GoG implemented that in their background info with that of some new ages, but ingame there was no need for a greeter, because there were enough URU veterans.

I do understand Nyrphame about saying there is an hiatus in game development and that's why no in-game greeters are really needed. But how about redirecting newbees to the GoG-site to get background info or instructions how to use the KI.

What bothers me that this site (MOUL) really has no info available an that the discussions here are just faded away when it comes to real game discussions. It look like with the start of gametap suddenly all other supporting sites were forgotten.

Now we are in the era of making moul open-source. New sites and guilds are created and still some of the "old" sites are visited for background info. I sincerly hope there will be some kind of community management to keep some adherence within the commuinity. Up till now I only see fighting to become a new elite, while i think the only elite is good community management and up till now i don't see that in this site/forum. It is just scaring people away.

Disclaimer: I am not a greeter or a liason of the greeters..

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