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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:26 pm 
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Lyrositor, I suppose you didn’t bother to read Myst-Uru Guilds. So, this will be a bit long.

You don't seem to have noticed the difference between the GoW, GoMa, GoMe, etc. and the Tech Data site. The TD is not meant to be the home of the GoC. The main GoC site remains Uru Obsession (which is down this morning). That will probably be true until someone decides to build a better site.

You also seem to have missed the point that having all the sites made similar will perpetuate what I consider a serious problem. While I won’t oppose people creating similar sites, I think and will tell people; it is a bad idea.

It seems to me some people have decided having similar sites is a good idea and have not considered the unintended consequences and how the change will help or hinder future game play. I think similar sites creates the impression to new players that some authority is creating them and has control and should fix or have anticipated problems. Those people whine, rage quite, have tantrums, and whatever trying to force a non-existent authority to change things, all because they don’t get it. I think it is bad for player retention. I think similar sites contributes to hidding the community philosophy to see a need and fill it.

Also, I’m not the head of the GoC. I generally answer questions because I’ve been around the longest and know why things are as they are. You seem to have the idea that there is some bureaucratic structure in the GoC that runs it. There isn’t. The closest the GoC has ever come to that is during Aiden’s era during MOUL. I prefer the chaos and individual responsibility in a laissez faire structure. If someone wants to do something, I may help them or just stay out of their way. Whatever the case, there is no approval process for anything. What I want or do not want is irrelevant. But, some people simply can't comprehend they are free to do as they please and get so hung up on thinking they need permission , I just give it to them because no one else thinks to, not because I have some special authority.

Since there is no way to enforce rules or make people cooperate one may as well let people be free and do as they please. Unfortunately people don’t seem to understand the natural order of chaos and try to impose their order and their ideas on others. I think that leads to drama and the chaos they intended to avoid. Skip all the drama and chaos, if you want something done, just do it.

Lots of people want other people to do things for them. I’m not really into that. If someone wants to build a nice GoC site they can get a domain name and hosting and put one up.

If you want me to change the TD to Tweek’s design, which is gorgeous, you are going to be disappointed. I’ve never wanted to run the GoC nor make the main web site for the Guild. The TD was and is intended to be a support site for those needing technical help making maps and a place for the technical information we have learned about how to map in Uru. It basically is my set of mapping notes of what the guild has learned over the years made public. It is what I wanted to do.

The TD was built to have high placement in Google/Yahoo for Uru Maps, also for the individual maps of each age, a place where people could find maps. It has achieved that. For those solving puzzles I never wanted the maps to be too easy to find. The links are obvious in the forums and fans sites. But, finding things in either is a challenge. Once one is determined to find a map, it is now pretty easy. For the GoC I added the Google/Yahoo entries.

The history on the TD is me goofing around. There is a more serious and factual history filed with the Archivists.

I like Tweek’s design. I also think it requires that whoever uses it have a FCAL from Cyan to use the map image from within the game. That is a grey area, but it is my belief.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Pardon me for misunderstanding.
All, right no common designs. I guess that, when I think of it, it's not such a great idea. But I still think at least a minimum of consistency is needed, such as links to the other Guilds.
Secondly, I never understood the difference between the main website (which I never saw) and the TD; thank you for clarifying that.
Thirdly, if I started hosting a Guild of Cartographers website, would it be acceptable?
Lastly, if I can host a GoC website, what do you think of the theme I have developed ?
P.S: I was unaware of those posts. I'll read them later today in detail to gain a better understanding of the guilds.
P.P.S: Upon rereading some of my posts, I realize I have been a bit arrogant in my messages and my project. For that, I ask forgiveness too.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Lyrositor wrote:
All, right no common designs.

:lol: Ok… you’re not responding as I would expect if you got it… If you decided the similarity in sites does create the problem I believe it will propagate, great. But, those that want to make similar sites will make similar sites. The point is, there is no rule. It is about what individuals do. While I believe a verity of site designs promotes the idea of a fan run community, no one person in charge, and see-a-need philosophy, that doesn’t make me right or make it is the best way or assure better player retention. I just think it does.

Lyrositor wrote:
Thirdly, if I started hosting a Guild of Cartographers website, would it be acceptable?

Now I’m left wondering if you read my preceding post…

Nal wrote:
Lots of people want other people to do things for them. I’m not really into that. If someone wants to build a nice GoC site they can get a domain name and hosting and put one up.


So, if you’re asking if it is acceptable to me… reread the quote above.

If you are asking if it is acceptable to the community, there is no one here that can answer that question. If you want to build one and host it, it only needs to be acceptable to you. When JWP built the OpenUru.org site I thought it was a horrible idea, several of us did. Another forum… another wiki… Oh Great, one more place to keep up with. But, look at OU now. It well serves the community and as time passes it will likely become the dominant source for Uru things open source. Luckily JWP didn’t listen to me. I think there is something there for you to consider.

Lyrositor wrote:
Lastly, if I can host a GoC website, what do you think of the theme I have developed ?

You layout is good and I like Tweek’s mix of art, text, and menus. But, design of a GoC web site needs to consider what the community wants, needs, and will use. Then design what you like and think fits those ideas. These things are done for fun. Since no one is doing much mapping there are no needs. One can try to anticipate them and build what they think is needed. But, that gets egotistical and designers get invested and that places obstacles in the way of what is actually needed. OpenUru is going through that anticipated needs adjustment now. They had what they thought would work and now they are modifying it to what the users want. Consider the results. Adam and others wanted to start getting code out and posting changes. He did not want to wait on OU or deal with whatever was there to deal with. He just wanted to post code now. So, the code branches split and Adam is posting code while OU sorts out their operation and figures out how to work with what Cyan needs/wants and what the community wants. This is how things go in the community. GoW has what they want and are happily enjoying doing their thing. No one really cares what Cyan, OU, or anyone else thinks nor does it matter. Take a lesson from what OU and GoW are doing.

I agree with lunanne. Arrogant… not so much. Also, lunanne nicely summarizes the Myst Guilds articles. I would emphasize the point by saying, give up the idea of guilds. They are collections of fans that enjoy similar things. It may be subtle. But, the shift in thinking makes life in the community much easier.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
I would emphasize the point by saying, give up the idea of guilds. They are collections of fans that enjoy similar things. It may be subtle. But, the shift in thinking makes life in the community much easier.

Not entirely sure if I'm getting this last part. :oops:
Are you saying:
1. "Give up on guilds and start your own website."
2. "Give up on creating designs for the guilds."
3. "Give up on the guilds themselves."
4. [Other?]

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:48 pm 
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I would start my own fan website, but I fear I'm not sure what to put on it. So many things exist on so many different websites.
...
:idea: Maybe there lies my answer.
Is there already such a thing as a one stop website for everything related to Uru? From a forum discussing it to guides to tips on writing ages to a wiki (kinda like MystLore, but for MO:ULa ONLY)... Because if there isn't, I could try creating one.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:28 pm 
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A separate wiki, in my opinion, would be useful because it would talk only about what is ACTUALLY in the cavern. If there are squees in the cavern or in one of the ages, it can have an article. Otherwise, other wikis should talk about it. Anyway, what I really meant was it would be current, and entirely from an IC point of view (the whole website would be, actually). Also, stricter style guidelines would be applied.
As for Rel.to, that's an adress book, which if fine and very useful (I often use it now) but still relies on different websites, with different layouts, and different types of content. This would be a one-stop place for everything, oriented specifically to newbies (no development articles, for example).

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:40 am 
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Lyrositor wrote:
Nalates wrote:
I would emphasize the point by saying, give up the idea of guilds. They are collections of fans that enjoy similar things. It may be subtle. But, the shift in thinking makes life in the community much easier.

Not entirely sure if I'm getting this last part. :oops:
Are you saying:
1. "Give up on guilds and start your own website."
2. "Give up on creating designs for the guilds."
3. "Give up on the guilds themselves."
4. [Other?]


Other... I'm saying thinking of, say, the GoMa as a guild is going to be misleading. You will stumble dealing with them. When you think of them only as individual fans then things go more smoothly. Think of your friends. You have social or sports friends, work or school friends, etc. If you label them the Sports Guild, you tend to think of them differently. Just think of them as friends. You know these friends are interested in going to the game, others to movies, others dancing...

You don't expect them to organize or give you permission to go to the game. You may however, get together and plan a trip to an out of town game. Someone may handle the money, someone else the reservations... but for the next game it may not be the same people. In many ways it is total chaos and appears unorganized to those outside but it works very well.

lunanne is saying the same thing another way. The guilds are just people with similar interests. If you treat the people there as you would friends, things work pretty well. When you treat them as an organization, things tend to get complicated, imo.

The whole point of Uru for fans is to have fun. If you like talking people into doing things, do that. If you like building web sites, do that.

Is there a one stop web site? I don't think so. There is SO MUCH people have taken a piece and focused on that. You could try to make one. But, that is a pretty big bite.

Rel.to is the link to everything Uru site. Mine has notes on mapping Uru and a collection of maps. GoW is into everything about making a working game or age. There is so much. I can't imagine an all-in-one site.

At some point we need tutorials on setting up MOSS and compiling CWE. As much as I like JWP and Mac they tend to be text oriented techies. Illustrated tutorials may be a way to contribute.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:52 pm 
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lunanne wrote:
To be honest I don't really see the point of a separate Uru wiki in IC. There is no story in the cavern anymore and almost no IC. Actually I never saw the point of elaborate IC explanations although many probably disagree with that. But what is the point when I can make pictures of myself in third person view with a device around my wrist.

In the end it is a game. Considering the huge amount of drama people seem to forget that a lot.
Two part reply.
First to IC or not to IC. That one has been debated to death. Some like to immerse themselves in IC to play, to escape or just to have a little fun being creative. I love the IC aspect for me there isn't enough.

Having one place the houses an IC repositry would be a great idea.

Second part. Yes I also wish more people could remember it is just a game and relax and little more. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
If you like building web sites, do that.

I love building websites, so I'll do that. I tend to have problems... working with others.

Nalates wrote:
At some point we need tutorials on setting up MOSS and compiling CWE. As much as I like JWP and Mac they tend to be text oriented techies. Illustrated tutorials may be a way to contribute.

lunanne wrote:
In the end it is a game. Considering the huge amount of drama people seem to forget that a lot.

To be honest, I never really looked at those tutorials, but I now realize that they are indeed a tad technical (to say the least). And Uru is indeed a game. Therefore, I'll get started on my website right away, but this time with NO IC parts (some websites, at least to my eyes) seem to like to mix both. All tutorials shall be accessible and structured. But I'm getting ahead of myself. First I must start building it... :wink:
I think I'm gonna reuse my basic layouts and tweak them a bit.

EDITED FOR SZARK'S reply: there is quite a lot of IC already, I think. And I think most people will see Uru as a game first, and then an... experience? And anyway, if my project does work, each page on the wiki will contain links to IC explanations for those wishing more information, from an in-character perspective.

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