It is currently Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:54 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 1:46 pm
Posts: 58
Location: rehgahlpo
I want to chime in here, both as someone who's written about the question of MOUL guilds in the past and as co-founder of one of the "guilds" (more on this term in a sec) that's been mentioned a few times.

I feel that earthwizard (in his first post) and Alahmnat have both raised points above that I agree with. Speaking of the AoG, earthwizard wrote:

Quote:
Our view of the guild systems is non-hierarchical and openly democratic, and we will never tell any group how they should enforce their own rules or bylaws.

[...]

I personally hope the whole guild system will never ever be built on the same principles as the old D'ni system which was strictly hierarchical and political. We are a different people with other needs and goals in the explorer community, and most of the members already distrust the idea of groups and guilds to begin with to suddenly be looking for governance and enforcement of which you speak.

[...]

You can take a look at The D'ni Linguistic Society, The Guild of Cartographers, The D'ni Zoologicial Society, and many many more that are both outside and inside the presence of the AoG and find nothing of the old style guilds in this sense (even if there are playful aspects of the inner sanctions for demonstrative reasons) yet all share one thing in common: they are filled with caring individuals whose only goal is to learn, share, and use their specific skills to engender respect, trust, and encourgement among their fellow explorers.


These are all sentiments I share -- monopoly, exclusivity, hierarchy, whatever stratifying force you want to summon up is going to, ipso facto, create inequality, which is going to make for unhappy explorers. I'm very grateful for zardoz for explaining the history of medieval guilds, which (my impression is) stand as the basic model for MMPORG guilds, and one option to consider for MOUL. (I'll put my cards on the table: there is a lot about standard MMPORG guild systems that I feel is inimical to the spirit of MOUL.) I do think it is important to also notice, as others have done, that the D'ni guilds were not the same as medieval guilds.

Two things to point out. Last I checked, we are not trying to recreate the D'ni society. I, for one, have no desire to recreate the D'ni society -- while it produced amazing technologies and arts, it was deeply flawed and unjust. The D'ni guild system was at the heart of that injustice. Why would we want that back?

Second, the concept of "guild" is a deeply an inextricably economic one. Whether we're talking medieval or D'ni, the guild was a cultural institution that served to regularize, administer, educate, and police communities which produced commodities that were in turn tied to exchanges of capital. The shipwright's guild of medieval York organized a community of shipbuilders who could produced seaworthy ships at a fair price; the Guild of Writers organized a community of sehltahntee who could produce Ages according to a strict standard (i.e., that avoided contradiction which would make the Age unstable) that would satisfy the material demands of the D'ni society (food production, raw materials for other goods, liesure for the wealthy, etc.). Both are institutions that organize production that traffics on the economic scene.

[A quick side note, in defense of "democratic" over monopolistic guild systems: Yeesha and Catherine both demonstrate that there were other ways to write Ages than the traditional rules the Guild of Writers obeyed. The D'ni limited their Age-creation capabilities by adhereing to a monopolistic guild system; if maverick Writers had been given the space, means, and opportunity to explore their non-traditional ideas in a safe and experimental environment, who knows what the D'ni could have achieved? Similarly, if there's only one Guild of Maintainers or Linguists or Archivists, what alternative, better, more effective methods are silenced?]

The guilds under discussion now can certainly be thought about in economic terms -- Cartographers produce maps, Linguistics produce translations, TCT produces news broadcasts, we all produce commodities -- and we've already fallen into the vocabulary of economics (e.g., the talk of how "efficiency" the guild system should be), but explorer "guilds" cannot be thought about in monetary terms. MOUL does not have, and should never have, a cash system. There is no economic exchange that ever occurs; the current "guilds" produce commodities without the expectation of recompense because their "goal is to learn, share, and use their specific skills to engender respect, trust, and encourgement among their fellow explorers."

That said, it seems to me that calling explorer groups "guilds" is at its root problematic. It raises all the questions of exclusivity, monopoly, etc. that have already been raised, simply because of its history as a word. It has proved to be a highly charged word that has the potential to raise some deep seated passions. And it stands for an economic system that is wholly inappropriate to the kinds of organizations we're using it to label. If you look at the names of some explorer groups -- D'ni Jazz Club, D'ni Linguistic Fellowship, D'ni Zoological Society, Students of D'ni Knowledge -- there's almost a desire to avoid using the word "guild" (I'd argue for the reasons I've just stated).

While I do think we'll end up with "guilds" inevitably, we need to not be acquiescent in our use of the term -- we need to actively redefine what we mean by "guild" in a way that is organic and proper to MOUL, its communities, and its systems of production and exchange, which I believe are grounded (radically) in generosity instead of gain.

Alahmnat's post makes two points less abstract points I want to reiterate. First, I agree 100% that the Guild of Archivist should not serve as an umbrella guild under which current "guilds" are grouped. I feel I can safely say that the work the DLF pursues is simply not archival. Yes, we collect and document as many D'ni texts as we can -- but this is where Archivists would stop. We go far beyond -- we translate the texts as best we can, we speculate about what remains untranslatable, we theorize the complex D'ni grammar system, we reconstruct etymology and linguistic history, we explore ahrotahn languages like Narani and the bahroglyphs, we help out with the production of original D'ni texts, we teach basic D'ni classes in the cavern... This is the work of Linguists, not Archivists. Classification otherwise is misleading and, to my mind, carries the whiff of politics.

Second, I see no reason why membership in a "guild" should ever be restricted, why any interested explorer should ever be turned away. Openness and transparency inspire confidence; selectiveness and bureaucracy arouse suspicions. Prefixes strike me as unnecessary and problematic -- I actually think the Greeters present a useful model, in that they reject prefixes in favor of clothing to indicate their affiliation, which encourages social interaction to engage in Guild rights and responsibilities instead of instantaneous verbal declaration of status (and isn't social interaction the point ot MOUL?).

I've linked to this thread before, and I know it's a pain to wade thru page after page of old postings, but I really want to encourage people who are passionate about guilds to read -- these questions of guild structure, rights, and responsibilities have received extensive attention already. Not to toot my own horn, but I do remember making a few posts specifically about using guilds as an opportunity to realize the profound utopian possibilities of MOUL (I need to take my own medicine and reread them myself :oops:), which were better worded than what I've said above and say more about reconceptualizing the term "guild" in more organic ways. While we may want to take the conversation in a new direction, it seems silly to me to throw out all of the really excellent collaborative thinking (not just my own! ;)) that went on back then.

http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34

(I can't believe I spent 1.5 hours writing this til 3:30am... what is wrong with me :roll: )

_________________
Image
An open community of scholars, explorers, and enthusiasts of the languages of the D'ni and their many Ages


Last edited by domahreh on Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:33 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 12:55 pm
Posts: 9847
Location: Luton, UK
Quote:
When a newcomer enters the cavern and decides he/she wants to start a guild so all of his friends can play together, we shouldn't be shooting that newcomer down.
That's a bevin, surely? Why does it have to be a guild?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:18 am
Posts: 143
Location: Los Angeles
Rusty_Russell wrote:
That's a bevin, surely? Why does it have to be a guild?


Given that no other game uses the term "bevin," I doubt a new player is going to form one. Guild, however? Well, most online games have them.

But mainly I just think that we need to leave the official Guild (capital G)-making to Cyan. For now, I say everyone just calls their group whatever they want, and does what they want.

Inefficient, you say? Well... we're playing a computer game. I'll strive for efficiency at work.

_________________
One day soon, someone will say something witty in Uru, and I'll put it here. Just you wait.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:58 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 12:55 pm
Posts: 9847
Location: Luton, UK
Sorry, perhaps Neighborhood would have been better than bevin. People get allocated a default one but can break the link and join one of their choosing anyway.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:47 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:29 pm
Posts: 1284
Location: UK
I can't say that I'm that fond of exclusivity, but in this case, I can see where Montgomery (crimson_bard) is coming from. To be honest, I think he puts it best in the chat between the former Maintainers and the Guardians:

Quote:
(04/07 06:28:41) Montgomery: Cringe. Sorry to dissagree, but you haven't defined yourself. That's the point. You eventually want to do whatever you can think of. In the mean time, the guy that really likes D'ni architecture and works hard to build a guild with like-minded fellws is going to get a slap in the face whn the mighty Guild of Guardians (ou will be big, eventually) decides to add an Architecture section.
(04/07 06:29:47) La'Fitte: If we have creative people with those skills that wish to provide us there services then fine well do architectur as well
(04/07 06:29:51) Montgomery: You're going to seem like Microsoft.
(04/07 06:30:03) MustardJeep: Hmm...
(04/07 06:30:08) zoneman: Mont. I believe you said it your self that we would be the the GP not the specialist
(04/07 06:30:44) Montgomery: Reno, I don't hink you understand how other people are going to feel when you try to steal their thunder.
(04/07 06:30:52) Reno Peacecraft: Right, zone...Mont, we did come to the point that we didnt specialize in anything specific and when someone wants to further their skills, we'll send them to the specialists.
(04/07 06:31:04) Reno Peacecraft: We're not stealing any thunder.
(04/07 06:31:37) zoneman: Not everyone wants to be a specialist.
(04/07 06:32:25) Montgomery: You may not be stealing it, but that guy with the architecture guild, he is going to either be angry, of give up, or both. You will have taken the fun out of it for him. He was a big fish in a small pond and you came along and -- a much bigger fish

Before anyone accuses me of taking anything 'out of context' (a term which seems to be flavour of the month), take a look at the whole log here.

Me and Montgomery have seen anything but eye-to-eye, but in this matter, I can see where he's coming from. If anyone has the time, I'd suggest reading through that log, then his point may make more sense.

_________________
The one and only. The original. Accept no imitations ;)
In other words, my posts, views and opinions are completely unrelated to those of 'islander1'.

"Never put Dolby on snake detectors"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 1:46 pm
Posts: 58
Location: rehgahlpo
Shouldn't this then be the main focus of any infrastructure that gets set up? Explorer groups are always gonna arise, flourish, and possibly grow obsolete. I agree with the spirit of Montgomery's point here -- groups need to have a clear sense of their identity in order to succeed. This doesn't mean exclusivity, though.

In my imaginings, one of the primrary roles of the AoG would be to help guide new explorer groups in defining themselves. Say a bunch of explorers wanted to work with Nick to restore the translations he's produced to their original D'ni form. They collect and have some initial conversations in Cavern, and decide they want to officially form a group called the Linguistic Restoration Project. They post to public forums to announce their formation and to recruit new members; AoG notes the post and gets in touch with them to offer some guidance. AoG offers some general advice on writing a mission statement, defining the scope, creating a forum/website, and also puts the LRP in touch with the D'ni Linguistic Fellowship. In talking to the LRP, the DLF would explain its own mission, scope, and resources, probably suggest a merger, but encourage the LRP to follow its own path and offer support as it develops. The LRP might then perhaps decide it wants to maintain its autonomy; the new work it produces will then be released at its own discretion, but I expect that the two groups would have some membership crossover and would stay in conversation about the projects it works on, and how they might mutually benefit. If the DLF starts throwing its weight around and intimidating LRP members in the cavern because they feel it's a turf war, then the AoG can step in and mediate (another important role).

At least, that's how I imagine things! Plural, non-exclusive, mutually respectful, cooperative and collaborative. Alahmnat's comments on the Guild of Archivists on the very first page here is perfectly illustrative of the kind of attitude towards guilds that I'm supporting here. There's no need to territorialize our forays into D'ni culture, history, and lore -- overlap can be immensely generative!

_________________
Image
An open community of scholars, explorers, and enthusiasts of the languages of the D'ni and their many Ages


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:42 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 12:22 am
Posts: 1092
Location: On the bluff
What I like so much about domahreh's point of view is that it allows for all possibilities, and so it forecloses none of them. It may turn out that a single organization works best, or that the original mission turns out to be too broad and so smaller groups specialize, or that massive disagreements erupt over the translation of certain words and the organization splinters. Keeping guild-like organizations non-monopolistic allows for all of those possibilities, and so encourages a vibrant and open society. It does not presume that we can predict what will be the "best" form for these structures, and allows for an evolutionary approach. Kudos, domahreh, for giving the perspective of a "guild leader" who seems ready for such a challenge.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: AoG - our goals
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:49 pm
Posts: 328
Location: Wyoming
Zardoz wrote:
What I like so much about domahreh's point of view is that it allows for all possibilities, and so it forecloses none of them.


Zardoz's point is well taken, and this is an important thing to remember! For anything that goes forward in MOUL both in and out of cavern should be open to change and allow for any possiblity that might arise as the needs of the communtiy change over time; as well as foreclosing "none of them".

domahreh brought up several important points that the AoG is both willing and planning on implementing. The main reason for the upcoming Town Hall meeting is to allow us to set the stage; the framework: and allow the explorer community and the existing groups to both understand our intent, our mission, and our place within the context of Uru. Also to listen to the explorer community and learn what their needs and requests for us are.

Listening is the most important thing of all. The AoG will listen and implement only what the community wishes. We are not independent of the people we represent. They are the central voice and power that makes Uru such a great community in the first place, and without the support of the community we are nothing and meaningless as as service.

For that is the central mission for the AoG: to be a Service oriented non-group. To provide several services that both independent explorers and groups can use to facilitate better communication within the community.

So what type of services will may offer (up to community) :

    1) Mediation - (inter/intra/extra group, explorer, and DRC)
    2) Portal - Personalized pages for groups
    3) Forums - group presence
    4) Blogs - specialized blogs for events and projects
    5) Project Matrix - specialized areas for participatory projects in which all MOUL community groups and non-members can participate (without the need to belong to a specific group: this entails both inter/intra/extra group participation as the need arises


If you have ideas or objectives that you would like AoG to implement as something that would benefit the MOUL community feel free to add to our list...

Finally, our biggest goal is to be of use. The AoG should be beyond anything else a tool: a pragmatic and realistic tool that brings together the talent and spirit of cooperation and partnership that is central to the MOUL community. Since there are no leaders in AoG then the leadership is you and your individual participation within the context of MOUL itself. It is up to each person interested enough to want this to go forward or not to decide for her/him self what direction (if any) that AoG and the groups themselves take as we move forward.

We only hope that along with many others that this all be based upon a participatory democracy wherin all members and non-members of the Uru Community will have a voice. Yes, that means that those who do not belong to groups per say should not be excluded, and that they are members of the wider community that is MOUL and will have voice as well. All they need do is speak up and let us know how we can serve their needs as well. We hope to provide open channels of communication and awareness for all members of the MOUL community.

The AoG Team

P.S.: For the benifit of those who may not know... one of our team membes, Calam, and his family recently were moving to California and suffered an accident. Please remember him in your prayers. They are fine, a little bruised but they need our support...


your buddy in the zone, earthwiz

_________________
Earthwizard - KI # 01555592 - The Ageless Explorer's Hood
D'ni Digest | AoG | Guild of Cartographers


Last edited by earthwizard on Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:35 am
Posts: 388
Location: Tennessee
This whole Guild discussion is very interesting to me. I have my own organization (the Students of D'ni Knowledge) and while it's not a guild, I have toyed with the idea of organizing a guild for those members of the SoDK who wish a more intensive process.

But here are my thoughts.

First of all, we have our limitations. It is simply not possible to have a monopoly in the cavern. There will always be people who don't want to join, but still want to do the same thing. Understand that in the Cavern, we have no regulating government (even applicable US commerce laws don't apply because there is no real commerce,) and more importantly, no method of enforcement (beyond the DRC itself banning someone from the Cavern, which to my knowledge has not happened. I'm sure it has happened in some cases, but nobody important that I know of.)

So speaking of guilds as monopolies is impossible. Monopolies exist because either A. the government grants that to them (impossible in the Cavern,) or B. because they use economics and other business tactics to remove their opponents (also impossible in the Cavern.)

However, I believe the guilds do fulfill one very vital purpose in the Cavern. That of regulation. Anyone can enter the Cavern, so anyone can say whatever they want, and do whatever they want. But when I see a map from the Guild of Cartographers (to use an example,) I know it's legitimate. I know it's accurate. Because the Guild of Cartographers is an official body, regulating its work and, presumably, checking it.

And that's the big thing. When a release is made from the Guild of Archivists, it should be trusted. That is what will make the Guild of Archivists successful. Through this regulation, a guild becomes popular, and eventually, while never achieving a monopoly, will achieve a superiority over all other similar organizations.

So I believe guilds need to be structured, and I think the apprentice/journeyman/master level of medieval guilds is perfect for this. They begin by working with a master to learn the trade. Then they work on their own, able to buy and sell (or in the case of these Guilds, able to operate and report as a full member.) And once they have created their "great work," (for instance, if I formed a Guild of Scholars, the great work might be a treatise examining the ebb and flow of a certain cultural or technological quality of the D'ni over the course of their history, and what that means in terms of their society,) that work is judged by the leaders of the Guild, and if acceptable, that person may now call themselves a Master.

That is what needs to happen to separate the "Guilds" (like the Guild of Scholars) from the "clubs" (Like my current Students of D'ni Knowledge.) Each have their purpose, I couldn't imagine ever trying to structure the SoDK beyond that of an open forum, which is what it was created to be, but the Guilds are different.

_________________
DocOlanA
KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 3830
Location: In the Cleft
I know only a few things for sure about Guilds in MOUL in its current form

Cyan is interested in having Guilds be part of things, they told us.

Rand and RAWA have talked about it, RAWA told us.

I like to follow where Cyan leads in all of this.

So I will wait for "more to be revealed"

And the discussion is very interesting and I am sure very useful to Cyan for formulating their synthesis, and they seem very senstive and wise as how to weave consensus with their own vision. :)

_________________
URU MOUL Lives
Admin
3D World and Game Developers Group Linkedin
"We Build Worlds"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:16 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:41 am
Posts: 124
Location: West Bountiful, UT
Here's my 2 units of D'ni M'ni (though quite an epistle for only 2 coins--sorry <.< ) on D'ni Guilds & Explorer Organizations in Uru:

1- Officiality & Exclusivity
2- Rankings
3- Specific Guilds
4- Other Guilds/Organizations


1- Officiality & Exclusivity:

I personally have been looking forward to the formation of a formal Guild system in Uru. But it definitely needs to be Cyan-approved (OOC), and at least partially DRC-endorsed (IC), or there's bound to be conflicts between the various Fan-Guilds that will pop up. Certain guidelines, limits, and areas of involvement would need to be set in place.

Exclusivity (wow that's a fun word to say) is obviously against what "Uru" (meaning "Grand Community") is all about. I don't think people should be able to switch Guild-membership at the snap of a finger, but it shouldn't be too hard to do so. User-Name Prefixes like the ResEngs have would definitely hurt more than help. And I don't think anyone should be turned away from joining any Guild. Membership in a Guild should be about an individual explorer wanting to focus on a particular area of "Cavern life" a bit more highly than other areas--and so the Guilds shouldn't become so prominent and integrated that explorers feel they absolutely have to join a Guild to enjoy Uru.


2- Rankings:

Any kind of rigid system of Rankings would make Uru too much like other MMOs where it's all about competition, and you have to play constantly to make it worth it. This would discourage a lot of types of people, and it would discourage Newbies, 'cause they'd be "too far behind". Uru is not meant to be about "leveling up" and "status". But I think a few various Guild "ranks", if you will, could work. We've heard of the D'ni ranks "Grand Master", "Guild Master", "Guild Captain", & "Guildsman". Let's say we take those, and maybe add to this something like "Initiate" (for a total of 5), and I think it could work this way:

Take the "Guild of Linguists"--You obviously wouldn't want the Grand Master to be someone who only played Uru one day a month, couldn't read the D'ni script, and couldn't even conjugate a verb properly. Similarly, the Guild Masters would be expected to be fairly versed in D'ni. And the subsequent ranks would reflect both knowledge of the D'ni Language, and participation in the Guild.

But by "participation", I don't mean in "countable hours". In any Guild, a person would be able to get beyond the so-called "lower ranks", even if they didn't play as often as others. It would reflect willingness to participate in the Guild, helpfulness in Guild activities, and genuineness/quality of participation (even if they only played Uru once a month). The so-called "higher" Guild ranks (Grand Master & Guild Masters) wouldn't be "reserved", but would obviously be the people who helped primarily "run" the Guild--if there's things to be done in a Guild, there have to be people who are around a bit more often to do them.

Yes, there is the possibility that this could lead to exclusivity & elitism, but if we understood from Day 1 that we're all equals--regardless of "rank"--we could prevent this. And if ResEngs (Cyan Employees) routinely monitored/participated in Guild activities, any negative behaviors could be nipped in the bud. (If anyone has horrible objections to this system I've described, don't go nuts & jump down my throat--this is all just hypothetical)

In any complex organization, there has to be some kind of "stratification"--just look at the Admin-Mod-Member format of most web-boards (including this one). I'm not suggesting that the Guilds should become some kind of "government", but in the end, any kind of "stratification" in Uru should be like the ideal format of Free Government: Not so much positions of power so much as positions of service.


3- Specific Guilds:

Obviously, some of the D'ni Guilds wouldn't work in Uru--Caterers, Legislators, etc. And some like the Writers might be feasible someday, but not right now. Additionally, some of the various "organizations" currently in Uru, or that could be formed in the future, are perfectly acceptable, but probably wouldn't quite fit as "Guilds". I think that the Guilds should largely be explorer-run/organized, but also that the DRC (IC; Cyan OOC) could provide something to each Guild to make each "official" in its own way. Here are the 5 Guilds that I think would work well in Uru: Greeters, Messengers, Archivists, Surveyors/Cartographers, & Linguists.

Greeters--Helping New Explorers into the Uru ("Grand Community"):
The only current "official" Guild. As Uru gets more & more people, and more & more content, Newbies could start feeling even more lost and overwhelmed than some of them do now. A constant presence of people specifically willing to answer questions, give orientations, and help people in their journeys, is definitely a good idea. And IC, I think the GoG could have a sort of "official" status by 1- Having new-user orientations in the GoG 'hood (rather than the "Beginners Bevin" 'hood), and 2- Having the Neighborhood Linking-Book in our Reltos initially link to the GoG 'hood by default.

Messengers--Dissemination of the Latest News on D'ni, the DRC, the Guilds, & the Ages:
This would largely fill the roll of some of the current organizations: "D'net", the "Cavern Communications Network", the "Cavern Today" Podcast, "The Echo" Newspaper from back during the Prologue, etc. The GoM wouldn't "remove" all these other organizations, but many of them (the "Cavern Today" & "The Echo" in particular, off-hand) could sort of be "sub-organizations" of the Guild itself. Officiality could be manifested by things like Town Hall Meetings being run by the GoMs, & the DRC announcing new information specifically through the GoMs.

Archivists--Gathering, Organization, Cataloging, Etc., of Information:
I can see how some would think that this could be served by the Guild of Messengers, but I think this is a separate area. The GoMs would be concerned with keeping people up-to-date on the latest information. The GoA would store all kinds of data: Dates for all the various Occurrences (openings of new Ages/areas, new items, Town Hall Meetings, etc.); Locations of new Items (linking books, linking stones, Relto pages, reward clothing, etc.); Logs of Chats w/the DRC, ResEngs, Sharper, Cate, Guild-leaders, etc. And officiality could be manifested by the DRC &/or ResEngs releasing some D'ni/Age-related info specifically through the GoA.

Surveyors/Cartographers--KI Functions, Marker-Missions, & the Great Zero:
The use of the KI's ability for navigation has great possibilities for exploring D'ni (and all the Ages--didn't the D'ni establish a "Zero" in every Age? I'd love to see that!). Think of using KI-coordinate clues to find some hidden goodie while exploring the vast City Proper! Some explorers have gone to great length to learn how to use KI-coordinates and Markers in complex and inventive ways. And the DRC/Cyan could help make the Guild official by providing the Surveyors/Cartographers (Or could the 2nd be a sub-organization of the 1st, perhaps?) the means to create in-game Maps of the various parts of D'ni & the Ages, through Guild-participation using Markers.

Linguists--Translation of & Education in the D'ni Language:
It's been suggested that the Linguists could be a sub-organization of the Guild of Archivists, but the D'ni Linguist community serves a very separate purpose. The current organization, the D'ni Linguistic Fellowship, is very self-contained from most other aspects of & organizations in Uru. When Uru was first released, the DLF web-boards were absolutely booming with dissection & speculation of all the D'ni texts found. A wonderful new set of up-to-date D'ni Language Lessons ("Rechoortahn D'ni"), as well as a very complete D'ni-English dictionary, are available. And the ultimate goal of the DLF is to have D'ni language lessons held In-Cavern. D'ni texts are part of the deep, wonderful History & Story that makes Uru as real as it is, and there are plenty of people who want to learn D'ni, and help translate new texts, or at least know what they say when they run across them. And the DRC/Cyan could officialize the GoL by releasing new D'ni vocab/grammar directly to the Guild. (Sorry for the long rant--I'm a D'ni Linguist <.< )

Finally, with a formal Guild System I think there should be 3 sets of web-boards for Uru:
www.urulive.com Out-of-Character discussion on all aspects of Uru as a game
www.drcsite.org In-Character discussion on the Restoration of D'ni & its Ages
www.dniguilds.org In-Character discussion on Guild matters, with a separate forum for each Guild


4- Other Guilds/Organizations:

Certain groups wouldn't fit well as a "Guild", but would still work as more open "Explorer Organizations". Current examples are "The Great Tree"--sort of the "Explorer's Union", the "Cavern Activities Team"--a social event organizer, & the "D'ni Zoological Society"--a group existing to study the animals of D'ni & its Ages. Here's some other ideas:

Maintainers--IC beta-testers, & fan-content moderators:
This could be kind of a dicey topic, but here's my thoughts:
First, the GoMn could be the In-Character beta-testers for DRC-released Ages. Game developers highly value testers who actually test, not just play & enjoy early-access--testers who systematically search for, attempt to reproduce, & report game-bugs. Yes, some people could see this as "elitism" or "favoritism", but non-GoMn explorers could apply to Cyan to be OOC beta-testers--testing Yeesha-released (or even Fan-released) Ages.
Second, the GoMn could help moderate fan-content. Cyan can either moderate it all themselves (which will severely limit how much fan-content we'll see), or they can "delegate" it to a group like the GoMn (which will allow much more fan-content to become available). Cyan could provide a basic list of "no-no" words, phrases, & images, and a set of guidelines on what is/isn't acceptable. Blatantly unacceptable content would be weeded out quickly, and only the borderline material would have to be brought to Cyan for approval.
Alternately, this role (even under the title "Mainainers", perhaps?) could be filled by the ResEngs.

Artists--Small-scale fan-content:
This seems a bit too open to be even a "Minor" Guild. An organization called something like the "Artisans of D'ni" could be a group of people w/design skills (and even some with just design ideas), organized to provide fan-content. It could be divided into sub-organizations (IC) for each of the various types of artistry--clothing, stained-glass, vases, paintings, statues, etc. This could even lead to vast customization of Neighborhoods.

Ages--Fan-created Ages:
In lieu of an official "Guild of Writers" (which will probably only happen once Cyan provides official Age-creation tools), the online group "Age Builders" (possibly in conjunction with H'URU?) could organize & manifest themselves In-Cavern as something like the "Age Builders Union"--a group of people who (IC) are studying Regestoy, & (OOC) possess graphic design skills (or at least well thought out Age ideas). The current Age Builders group & H'URU have done quite a lot, but it would be great to see a more formal & active presence in Uru.

Musicians--D'ni & fan-created music:
The "Cavern Choir" is an inventive and ambitious organization, but they could possibly become an adjunct of a larger musical group. Called something like the "Minstrels of D'ni", they could be a group of people who want to 1- Study D'ni music, 2- Write D'ni-inspired music, & 3- Perform both fan-music and official music in Uru (The "Cavern Choir" performs the "Kadish Gallery Theme", perhaps? Or "D'ni Jazz Club", anyone? ;)).

History--D'ni History-Buffs:
The deep back-story of D'ni is what makes Uru so awe-inspiring, and there are quite a few of us who want to know it all, or at least want to know more. A "D'ni History Association" could be organized to help other explorers learn the history of the D'ni civilization (and be an alternative to reading all 34 Kings Journals ;)). This could be a sub-organization of the Guild of Archivists, but possibly operate on its own.

Religion--Spiritual Students of Yahvo:
I've been thinking of starting a sort of "Spiritual Fellowship" in D'ni, for those of us with spiritual beliefs, to unite IC to study & interpret D'ni scripture like "Words" & "Regeltahvokh Oorpah", & discuss their implications for the future of D'ni. I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to know more about the D'ni religion (the official "Church of Yahvo") & the various other D'ni spiritual sects, as well as those who'd like to be able to meet fellow spiritual explorers.


This epistle is waaaaay longer than I initially thought it'd be, but I'm glad I got a chance to discuss all this :) Whether we're for or against official Guilds, we need Cyan &/or the DRC to understand that we're chomping at the bit to know how things are going to be. If they're not going to hand it to us on a platter, let's formally present our ideas & wants to light a fire under them.

What do you all think? What are your ideas?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:51 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:58 am
Posts: 582
Unless a Guild structure comes down from the people with real power and authority (i.e. Cyan), the best thing to do is not worry what you name your group too much and just work to do what your organization is trying to do.

I think ultimately, a 'guild' will really be an organization that steps up and does something. The Guild of Greeters is a well-established organization that even Cyan relies on. That's because they stepped up and continue to step up., doing what they do.

I do think that there is a virtue in seeing what other people are doing and attempting not to duplicate effort. Just how many Guilds of Redundancy do we need, anyway? ;) But I think that brings us to the AoG. The Assembly of Guilds is, I think, more of a marketplace of ideas - an attempt to make it easier for people of like mind to find each other. From there you can decide to join forces, or decide that you think you can do it better. But I think you need to that marketplace of ideas to see where things stand already.

_________________
Your story is Unwritten.
Unwritten - Adventures in the Ages of Myst and Beyond
MOULagain KI#27460 - Second Life: Vax Sirnah


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 1:46 pm
Posts: 58
Location: rehgahlpo
zardoz: very kind of you to say, thanks ;) the openness you describe is exactly what I'd like to see.

earthwiz: one thing you might consider adding to the list of AoG services is organizational support outside of mediation. New explorer groups who haven't done community organizing before are going to need guidance to help them define themselves, and so having some resources available (guides on how to compose a mission statement, how to energize members, how to hold and publicize events) could be very valuable.

DocOlanA: I'm right there with you on most of your points. Two things I'd differ slightly on.

Quote:
When a release is made from the Guild of Archivists, it should be trusted. That is what will make the Guild of Archivists successful. Through this regulation, a guild becomes popular, and eventually, while never achieving a monopoly, will achieve a superiority over all other similar organizations.


I totally agree, from inside the guild, it makes sense for there to be a standard of quality that official productions are held to. Part of the community work would be to make sure each production makes the grade. I'd suggest an alternative to the prospective evolution of the group you offer, though: Guild of Archivists produces some excellent, high-quality work and gains a strong following. However, instead of it "achieiving superiority over all other similar organizations," a second Archivist group with a different philosophy about how to conduct its archival work, while looking at the same data, offers new interpretations with different metrics. These new findings uncover things that the Guild of Archivists' approach overlooked and enrich the MOUL gaming experience in exciting new ways. That is to say, sure, there will be Archivist groups that are a flash in the pan who flare up and fade away, but there needs to be encouragement for original thinking and creative exploration in community building, so that when a legitimately trailblazing new Archivist group comes into being, it gets nurtured instead of quashed. (I feel this strongly -- our free market brains are wired to automatically assume "survival of the fittest" is the way to be, which I feel is a very suspect notion. And I think MOUL is set up in such a way that that kind of attitude just doesn't work.)

Quote:
That is what needs to happen to separate the "Guilds" (like the Guild of Scholars) from the "clubs" (Like my current Students of D'ni Knowledge.) Each have their purpose, I couldn't imagine ever trying to structure the SoDK beyond that of an open forum, which is what it was created to be, but the Guilds are different.


I don't know if this separation needs to occur. Depends on how we rethink the term "guild" for MOUL.

K'laa: great post my friend! 8) This:

Quote:
any kind of "stratification" in Uru should be like the ideal format of Free Government: Not so much positions of power so much as positions of service.


is very well put; the kind of guild ranking you suggest is one of the first that feels comfortable to me. The list of guilds you've complied is inspiring too, how cool would it be to have all that in place... I can say too about the Musicians that in addition to the Choir, there's a Musicology Bevin that sil_oh_wet's involved with, a D'ni Musicology Society, and I think a Guild of Musicians was set up too...

_________________
Image
An open community of scholars, explorers, and enthusiasts of the languages of the D'ni and their many Ages


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: thanks...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:49 pm
Posts: 328
Location: Wyoming
domahreh wrote:

earthwiz: one thing you might consider adding to the list of AoG services is organizational support outside of mediation. New explorer groups who haven't done community organizing before are going to need guidance to help them define themselves, and so having some resources available (guides on how to compose a mission statement, how to energize members, how to hold and publicize events) could be very valuable.


Definitely. Thanks again, domahreh.

One of the main points to consider is that the AoG is a service oriented organization will depend on the Guilds themselves to help in the formulation of many of the feature sets and services that will be provided to the community. The AoG will depend on voluntary members from each of the Guilds to facilitate and maintain these services, much like the Guild of Greeters does in providing services in house to the community. We envision the AoG as more of a loose-knit association of volunteers who will work closely with each guild and the DRC to provide services as the need arises.

Since the AoG is not a group it has no members beyond the actual guild membership itself, so many of the services will need to be maintained by the guilds themselves (on a volutary basis: and we see this as possibly part of the apprenticeship programs, much in the way of community service programs in many cities across the planet).

Also we assmume that there will need to be smaller temporary committees formed for specific projects that will draw on the talent pool of both guild and independent explorers for the specifc purpose of a particular service that is required for a particular aspect of the Restoration.

This is where I see the fine line of allowing both guild and independent explorer the ability to volunteer services. This also goes for the AoG itself, it behooves us to recruit people from outside of guilds who still want to serve in some form or fashion and allow them to participate as a voluteer for specific services as well.

I envision the AoG as more of a clearinhouse or marketplace for services, a group of loose-knit associations of voluteers who come together as needed to perform specific tasks as part of the ongoing task of Restoration under the guidance of the DRC. We will also provide both community and guild based services as stated previously. This is the point of a non-group who will be more of a channel both of communication and a conduit for the specific services that the Restoration requires.

If we keep the vision of a Service Oriented structure in mind then the whole pattern of partnership and trust that a loose-knit alliance of both explorers and guilds can indeed work for all. No one person, or group, will ever be in control of the guilds or explorers in this sense. Seeing it as a loose-knit federation of disparate groups and individuals likens it more to an informal equalitarian society of members helping members model that has already for so long been the mode of MOUL community.

These are just a few thougths.... many of the explorers and guilds wil debate these issues in the coming weeks and months. The Town Hall will only set a particular stage for this process. But the ongoing process of community building is what MOUL is about, and how we do it is truly up to all those individuals who believe as I do in a participatory community. It is up to each and every explorer to decide for his/her self how this will proceed.

AoG is only one part of this multi-faceted jewel in community building. We only hope to share in our ability to provide services that are useful to the community as a whole, and to the Restoration in particular.

your buddy in the zone, earthwiz

_________________
Earthwizard - KI # 01555592 - The Ageless Explorer's Hood
D'ni Digest | AoG | Guild of Cartographers


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 3:35 am
Posts: 164
Create and organize a guild, society, gaggle, or whathaveyou but keep this in mind:

Competition is not a bad thing. Embrace it! And should a 'rival' group appear to be stepping on your toes/turf, open up a dialog w/them in good faith. Perhaps the two can merge or come to a compromise.
Everyone wants to be reasonable, you just have to give 'em a reason.


Hey, while I'm here, how about a nice set of fixed rules for 'Guild' formation:

1. There are no rules.
2. See rule number one.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: