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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:12 am 
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Other than donations, is there anything else that can be done to help at this point? :(

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:17 am 
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Jamey wrote:
Other than donations, is there anything else that can be done to help at this point? :(


Yes, Please. I do not know what exactly we'd lose with "degraded service" if it were to come to that but it doesn't sound good.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:44 am 
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Now that we have accurate cavcon measurements we have a proper metric with which to donate. How is this not a good thing? Sure we're at 2 right now and have been since April but now that we KNOW we're at two I guarantee it'll go back up pretty quickly. If this error hadnt been corrected we could have hit 1 and things would be much much worse. This is bitter-sweet news but at least now we know where we are.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:46 am 
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RAWA wrote:
AdamJohnso wrote:
There was "something to inquire about", from *our* perspective anyway

Let me try again, then.

Please re-read the first paragraph in Chogon's initial post again, as it explains precisely what the miscommunication was, which is:

TPTB have been answering the question with monthly donations + reserves in mind (what they had come to think CAVCON was tracking), instead of just considering monthly donations (what I actually intended CAVCON to be tracking).

And since his post explains what the miscommunication was, logically, how it happened was likely to have already been sorted out by the time he posted (especially given the understandable nature of what the miscommunication was, which he explained), so further inquiry (inquiries made after his post) would be pointless.
Quote:
I do hope there will be an inquiry...
[emphasis mine] seems to imply Chogon's explanation about the miscommunication wasn't good enough, which we take to mean that you're really looking for an inquiry as to whom this should be blamed on, since that's the main piece of information missing from his explanation.


Sorry, I was looking for that how that was being/had been determined (there are way too many scapegoats in this game already--we don't need another one ;)). I should have definitely it more clear that I wanted that rather than sounding like "I HOPE THAT FOOL IS FIRED!!!". Fortunately, your post answered that sufficiently well by including the exchange in an easy to read format that included the how as well... The cavcon definitions were missing because they were assumed to be common knowledge, which is completely understandable. By putting those two pieces together, the situation makes sense to me.

I have long been taught that "if it doesn't make sense, it's not true." I wanted to believe that the cavcon status being incorrect was a miscommunication. Lying about the status would be pretty stupid, after all. However, getting something that is as "simple" as the CAVCON wrong didn't make sense to me. If the party that was providing the CAVCON number was unfamiliar with the ratings, then it makes sense, and, as a result, it is most likely true. :)

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As for conspiracies: I would love to not expect accusations of conspiracies when these kinds of things happen, but I have roughly a decade of Uru experience starting from the first explorer flood in beta to the shutdown by Ubi to gameTap to when the MOULa login turnstile was broken and many, many others in between that clearly suggest otherwise. Our explanations, no matter how accurate, have never been sufficient to squelch the accusations. Such is life. And your request for further inquiry (after the explanation had been provided) certainly seemed to be another example of same.


I suppose I should have worded my post differently. In hindsight, "will be an inquiry" sounds somewhat rude. That is what I get for writing posts after "happy fun playtime" with Dr Busch and his happy little Physics land (side note: I hate Physics with a boiling passion). Still, "blame it on aliens" isn't something you tell to your fans considering the previously cited posts. Especially when they're the ones donating to keep the game online. While we might be directing those remarks at to someone who hasn't donated, the others who do donate are also watching ;)

PS: Just to state this explicitly, I am not upset at anyone at Cyan over this situation. The whole point of this exercise was to understand, especially after one of the GoW members posted in what appeared to be a near panic attack over the status of MOULa.

EDIT: Lots of edits for clarity.

PPS: I'm done beating this horse as well ;)

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Last edited by AdamJohnso on Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:57 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:51 am 
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Main_Avvie wrote:
Yes, Please. I do not know what exactly we'd lose with "degraded service" if it were to come to that but it doesn't sound good.


Sorry Main_Avvie, your original question kinda got lost in the mix.
In this case, degradation of service would be that we would use smaller servers to house MOULa in (they cost less than bigger ones) so you would experience more slow downs or waits while playing but theoretically if there is less donations then there are probably less people - so it might balance out. However, I seriously don't think it will come to that for a while.

As for what I was thinking of to work on in MOULa - hmmm, there is a *lot* to chose from. But mostly the fixes that have come forward from fans - there are a number of pretty easy ones that would make a lot of difference. But that would require setting up a beta server and a beta, etc. which cost money.

Hope that helps,
Chogon


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:53 am 
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Chogon wrote:
there are a number of pretty easy ones that would make a lot of difference..


Love the sound of that :). I can't wait for my fix to xSimpleImger.py and xKI.py for the 9 second stuttering lags to be pulled... I remember how frustrating those were.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:36 am 
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That is reassuring, Chogon. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:57 am 
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Columbo impression:
Oh, just one more thing.

AdamJohnso wrote:
Still, "blame it on aliens" isn't something you tell to your fans considering the previously cited posts. Especially when they're the ones donating to keep the game online. While we might be directing those remarks at to someone who hasn't donated, the others who do donate are also watching ;)

Chogon's blaming the aliens for the CAVCON _reporting_ issue (why the numbers I've been giving were wrong), not blaming anyone at all for drop in donations. So those remarks aren't directed at anyone, let alone the players (whether they've donated or not!) :)

To Zardoz's pony: and stay down, you poor thing!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:11 am 
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You're right, I didn't mean to imply Chogon was blaming aliens that we're not donating ;) Once again language is both friend and foe. 8)

I promise I'm really done this time :oops:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:26 am 
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Chogon wrote:
[As for what I was thinking of to work on in MOULa - hmmm, there is a *lot* to chose from. But mostly the fixes that have come forward from fans - there are a number of pretty easy ones that would make a lot of difference. But that would require setting up a beta server and a beta, etc. which cost money.

Hope that helps,
Chogon

Hi Chogon, I'm sure what I am going to ask depends on what you were wanting to work on and the methods you want to use. However, would it be possible for fans to host the beta server for at least time time being?

I have actually given thought to this in the past. Perhaps this would be a good area for the mostly inactive Guild of Maintainers to get involved. We know that the Writers have already established themselves as a place for developers to work and they plan to have their own official server for their stuff. The GoM, in contrast to the writers, could (working as needed with Cyan) have a beta server containing only content and bug fixes that have been reviewed and is in its final steps to making it onto MOULa. This could be matched up with content on the OpenUru repository.

Of course, the Maintainer's Guild is just one suggestion. It could instead be hosted directly on OpenUru or wherever Cyan feels is best for them. After all, the point is to get this on Cyan's servers in the end.

I know there may be problems with this idea (beyond time and money even :) ). At the very least, I would bet there are several practical and technical details to hammer out. Do you think it is in the realm of possibility?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 am 
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EccentricOne wrote:
Of course, the Maintainer's Guild is just one suggestion. It could instead be hosted directly on OpenUru or wherever Cyan feels is best for them. After all, the point is to get this on Cyan's servers in the end.

That's the right point. I've already communicated the idea, earlier today in fact. I hope we can save Cyan the time, effort and cost of needing a test shard for themselves (and stretch your donation dollars). But it doesn't have to be an OpenUru.org shard. Though we'd naturally prefer to get some reports from MOSS shards, that doesn't exclude DirtSand, but the test client build should come from the CWE-ou repo even though it will lag behind the h'uru client until we can catch up. Anyone who can, or has, set up a shard could do testing and report the results. The Guild of Maintainers is an excellent idea. We'll see how it works out. More when we have the details.

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Last edited by JWPlatt on Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 am 
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RAWA wrote:
Columbo impression:
Oh, just one more thing.


Love it! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:27 am 
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Chogon wrote:
The second phase I will be asking for volunteers from fans to host file servers to spread out the data transfer costs (more details on that later).

Thanks!
Chogon


I think you might be inundated with volunteers; remember Until Uru?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:09 am 
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Wow Chogon that sure does leave my Alien implant disguised as belly button lint in the dust


:shock:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:11 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Though we'd naturally prefer to get some reports from MOSS shards, that doesn't exclude DirtSand, but the test client build should come from the CWE-ou repo even though it will lag behind the h'uru client until we can catch up. Anyone who can, or has, set up a shard could do testing and report the results. The Guild of Maintainers is an excellent idea. We'll see how it works out. More when we have the details.

Will MOSS and DirtSand be close enough for a beta server, or would we really need to wait for the CWE server code to be released? I guess it depends on the content and what Cyan is comfortable with. Maybe Cyan would provide Plasma server binaries just for the beta server as a temporary solution. I'm not sure if that is a good idea or really necessary though.

Any of the h'uru client code that we are wanting in MOULa could be pulled into OpenUru. I'm not sure how the review process would work for doing that and for selecting the best stuff for beta. That's something that Cyan and the developers can figure out.


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