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 Post subject: Re: Age 37
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:09 am 
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lonelyto25 wrote:
We find out in Uru that alternate universes aren't as far apart as we think. So someone's journal says something about someone else finding the Myst book. That's funny, I thought I found the Myst book. Didn't you, too? Well we can't all have found it, can we? Well, sure! Why not?.


Remember... when we made Myst, there were never any plans for anything like Uru. In fact, that idea didn't come along until after I left Cyan. Myst was always intended to be a solitary journey... your journey. Riven would be the final chapter of that journey... that was always our design. There would be no sequels. So there never was that logic problem.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:19 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Age 37
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:33 am 
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robynmiller wrote:
Myst was always intended to be a solitary journey... your journey. Riven would be the final chapter of that journey... that was always our design. There would be no sequels.

I've always loved how the ending of Riven ties in with the beginning of Myst so perfectly. I finally understood what Atrus' speech was about! And, better yet, that you'd already come up with all that when you made Myst was just completely amazing.

And now I can't help asking you another question... What did you think of the Rime Age that was added in RealMyst? Personally I really liked it, even though it felt a bit tacked on (which it was ;)). One of the few problems I had with Myst was that there was no real reward for completing it, and Rime fixed that. I also thought it was really clever how they later revisited the concept in Myst IV.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:33 am 
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What I see here, is a funny situation. Robyn is more of a "keep it simple" guy, he likes his stories more like fairy tales- simple world. On his mind, the stories told in BoA, Myst, Riven and the others are timeless, they have no connection to our world, our reality. "Somewhere in a far away land". And not a lot of details. If I dare guessing, I suppose Robyn would never reveal too us as much D'ni history as Rand did. Robyn was out of the loop for quite some time, and we can all see he is surprised about how much the world of the D'ni and Myst grew. Behind his original intant. I don't see this growing as retcons- at least not most of them. Maybe Robyn never wanted D'ni to have any connection to Earth- but nobody ever said it didn't, in any game or book. He left Cyan, and Myst was left in the hands of his brother- who is quite different from Robyn.

Rand is a lot more open. He (and the other members of Cyan) revealed tons of information about the D'ni for us, mainly through Uru. Now we know the complete list of kings in D'ni, and their stories. We know about a lot of the history, what happened many years before the fall. D'ni had connection to our world, among other things. But as the world started to grow, it was no longer a fairy tale, it became huge. Sort of like Tolkien's middle earth. The world still had lots of mysteries, but not enough.

I tend to like Rand's style a bit more. Still, I feel Robyn's touch is missing. From BoD, as well as Uru. Even though I like the huge expansions Rand brought to the world, I think the more simple, myterious "fairy tale" style that Robyn added is not really there. And it's needed.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:03 am 
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No, Miranda... seems to me like this is more the sort of elf Robyn had in mind...

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Robyn is a gnome on Google+

does that make Chogon a hobbit?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:04 am 
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Quoting robynmiller
Quote:
Hi! I want to say again that it's great hearing from everyone! Before I answer any more questions, I should say this... the correct concept and philosophy of Myst (or Riven, or Uru) is probably whatever concept allows you to have the most fun playing it. Myst is yours... the fans. And the most I can do is tell you what we, the designers, originally intended for the Myst experience.

That said, regarding Myst island and additional hidden areas, like bedrooms... if you want to imagine those areas are there, it's fine. We never designed or intended anything like that. We wanted to give you freedom to explore everything on Myst island.


This has been one of the nicest threads to read in this forum for a long time. I recognize a number of opinions on canon and such, but I have also learned new things, which makes me happy.

Hi Robyn, nice to finally "meet" you.

I love the environment in the Myst-to-Uru games because there is history and mystery and hauntingly soothing music. It is relaxing to sit there while working on a difficult, tedious project. I came to the games during my dissertation research, and was never able to spend time studying the artifacts or language. I have time now, and although maybe some say it (should be) too late, the fact that I am able to be there for a different purpose this time makes it almost new again. Part of the reason to work on restoring the Guild of Healers is because there is so little known, and yet so much is right there in the environment -- if we but look... again. I still listen to the Myst-to-Uru music more than anything else when I really need to focus and work -- and relax doing it.

I also like the fact that some things, like linking, reflect the quantum nature of Age Writing and the generation of the gateway image (the picture). The way linking actually works might well be different for each writer, just as the arrival of each first visitor makes the image (and age) settle into what it is (even if only to that individual). Our handwriting reflects our personality, and itself may well affect how the words, phrases, and sentences interact with the materials. I don't need it to work for me the same way it works for others. The important thing for me is that when I touch the image of the book, I link to the age. The important thing is that it works. I experience the particular experience that is the one for me. I just want to be there and have that experience. How can I possibly explain what is there to anyone else's satisfaction? They really have to go there themselves, and be there too.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:32 am 
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robynmiller wrote:
So all in all I'm talking about the general direction of the Myst canon. And of course none of this is some great political issue, no one is loosing a job or going to war over this, so there's really no reason for any of us to be very upset or anything. But I always thought of Myst and Riven as art, not product. It's okay to going back and change the formula for Pepsi or Cascade detergent, but even the creators don't really have the right to change and redefine an original work. At least I don't think they do. Because it's already entered the public's consciousness.

So that's what it's really about... changing the original work into something it was never meant to be. And will it be changed even more? Even an elf can see that we don't want any more changes to that work. :-)


I remember discussions about this, in the beta, other places. Once you release a work, a piece of visual art, a painting, a video game, the work stands on its own. You don't get to take it back. You don't get to say "I didn't really mean that". Just because there were inconsistencies, in let's say, Star Trek, you don't get to rewrite an episode. You can ignore certain inconsistencies if you choose, but you don't get to say "I didn't mean that'. And if you try to do that, people get really mad -- examples abound in TV shows where people try to explain something that they want to change by saying "it was all a dream", and that's not well received.

So, let's look at Myst. Just because it played as first person, it could have been someone else, not you. Let's see, . where you ever referred to by name or gender? Did you see your reflection in a mirror? Was there even one reference that referred to someone else? No, not one bit. So, it's you, the player, that's who is involved in the story. Notice what I did here. I did not reference someone's notes, a whiteboard, a document, what someone said on a website. Yes that can provide some context, but when you want to do canon, context, you look at the work, the creation, the piece.

So, the canon is what's in all the games, and (I suppose) the books, the published works. I don't think any of the video games outrank the others. What a terrible interpretation to say that Myst is a "game", but Uru is real. You can do that, but it doesn't seem borne out by looking at the the object, the work, the creation. Is there something about Myst that makes you think it's a game, as opposed to Uru?

Personally, I feel a lot better about the whole thing, knowing that at least one of the creators of the works valued them as works, as creations, put out there, released to the public. And when that happens, you can never go back.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:08 pm 
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mszv,

I understand your point. I do. I don't agree with it entirely, but I understand it. :)

Here's my biggest problem, using Myst as an example.

By the logic of only what happens in Myst (the original CD-ROM game) is "canon":

1) The sun really never moved in any of the Ages, because it doesn't move in the original Myst. You can sit there on Myst Island and stare at the sun all day and all night (our time) for weeks on end and it will never budge an inch.
2) The clouds really never moved in any of the Ages, because they don't move in Myst.
3) There are only two butterflies on Myst Island and they keep precisely following the exact same few paths every time you see them. (Brand new retcon: Atrus spent all those years with nothing better to do than training his two pet butterflies (Moritmer and Willow) to follow those precise paths. (Relax... I'm kidding) :)
4) The waves in the ocean defy all physics and just remain absolutely motionless, despite the fact that I can hear the waves lapping on the shore.
5) Atrus and Catherine must have never eaten (except maybe the occasional bit of moldy cheese when they visit Sirrus in Channelwood) or sleep, or go to the bathroom, etc., because we don't see any food, beds, or bathrooms on Myst Island.
6)You can hear wind just about everywhere, but the trees stay perfectly still, even the nice, light, deciduous leaves in Selenitic don't move _at all_ in the breeze.

and on and on and on and on...

So, one has to either be content with a world that is completely inconsistent with itself (we're not just talking "a bit of retcon here and there" inconsistent, we're talking "fundamental inconsistencies between your own senses" inconsistent: I hear wind, but I see that the trees and clouds don't move. I hear water lapping, but I see that the water doesn't move, etc.); or you have to draw a line somewhere and say, "Hey, there are budgetary, time, technological, etc. limitations that limit what could be accomplished in creating Myst" (and would be just as true if it were made today, see: Uru.) You draw that line, even if it's only subconsciously, and (hopefully) suspend your disbelief: the Myst we (Cyan) are capable of representing on the screen will always be less complete than the Myst in your imagination.

But once you've drawn that line, you have to realize that the person next to you has drawn that line in a different place to satisfy their own personal "suspension of disbelief". They're bothered by certain things that you aren't bothered by, and you're bothered by things that they aren't bothered by.

One person is satisfied by filling in all those blanks on their own, with their own imagination. Someone else fills in those blanks while they're playing, but then is curious how we (the authors) would fill in those blanks, so they ask us.

Why? Because Myst isn't "just" a game to them. It certainly isn't "just" a game to me. That "ideal" Myst is a place I would love to visit. I want to know all about it. I'm not alone in that.

I will continue to maintain that there isn't a single "right" perspective that has to work for everyone. Each person is free to enjoy their Myst experience however they want.

If you want to fill in all of those blanks yourself, and you don't care how anyone else would fill them in - more power to you. You have my blessing. Go forth into the world and be happy. Please. Really!

And the person who writes to us and asks how we would have filled them in (well, if they wrote to me, they got an answer of how Rand would have filled them in, with my belated apologies to Robyn) is equally within their rights to do so, because that's what made _them_ happy in their Myst experience.

What has raised the hair on the back of my neck every time you've stated this position over the years, is that doesn't seem to even acknowledge that anyone else is allowed to ask us those questions. You're telling us what we (generically as authors) have the right to do and don't have the right to do. Quote: "You don't get to say 'I didn't mean that.'"

RAWA to fan: "Sorry, but since the sun doesn't move in the game, it really didn't move. My hands are completely tied, because we shipped the CD-ROM that way." That's just plain silly. :)

And so, whether I have your permission or not, I'm still going to say that the sun really did move on Myst Island if someone asks me, even though we couldn't render real-time shadows at the time. There really was wind, even though we couldn't animate all the trees and the water. And so on. :)

And once you've opened that door, then linking questions are also fair game, because that bothers some people just as much as something you've filled in with your imagination to suspend disbelief. And guess what? Rand and I spent months talking about this very thing before Myst was released, precisely because it bothered _me_ enough to ask Rand about it while we were working on it.

[Here's where I admit that you can't go by me, because I'm the guy who always listens to all the actors/director's commentaries on a DVD and watches all the deleted scenes, alternate endings, etc. when available, because I want to know all the stories about what didn't make it into the movie as much as what did and how and why.]

So when people write in and ask those same questions, I give them the answer Rand gave me when I asked. Is it in the game? No. Do those people care about the answer, even though it wasn't in the game? Well, it would seem that they cared enough about it to take the time to write to us and ask us.

The reason that we had an FAQ, as the name implies, is that there were questions that we were asked frequently. There were plenty of people out there that wanted to know what was on the white board, so to speak, even if it wasn't in the game.

There are millions of people who played, each with their own point of view, and they all get enjoyment from different facets of their Myst experience. It's a shame to limit anyone's enjoyment by telling them that there's only one view that's acceptable, and it isn't theirs, which is what you're doing by saying that only what's shown in Myst itself "counts".

I've never told you (generic "you", now) that you are required to accept any of my answers in order to play Myst. There is nothing in Uru's EULA that states that you have to agree with "RAWA's take on Linking Theory" in order to play. In fact, I've said the opposite many, many times over the years - "do what makes _you_ the happiest". And I've meant that sincerely every time I've said it. "If you don't want to drop the pellets, don't drop the pellets." "If you don't care about linking theory, you might want to move on to the next email" "If quantum mechanics makes your head hurt... join the club!", "If you don't like the withered carrot we have now, come back when we have fresh carrots!", "If you don't enjoy [insert topic here], then find something else you do enjoy. Please.",etc.

Really, I'm a "live and let live" kind of guy. Whatever floats your boat. Share and enjoy. Live long and prosper. But I extend that courtesy to those who don't hold your perspective, too.

I guess I don't understand why others can't be allowed to ask those questions, and why we shouldn't be allowed to answer them. And as long as my answers to those questions haven't changed over time (and they haven't, other than I may add a disclaimer for Robyn now), I don't have a problem with telling them how we (Rand and I) would have filled them in.

:)

RAWA

with love to Zardoz's pony.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:20 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:34 pm 
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RAWA, you make an excellent point, but Robyn also said that anyone is free to enjoy Myst believing whatever they want to believe, so the two of you may agree more than what you seemed to be thinking when you wrote that post.

Like I said, I don't mind every single retcon just because, but there are some that I really do mind, and the biggest one is "Myst is just a game, but Uru is real". That one almost hurt me emotionally. And the way the events of End of Ages were worked into MO:UL is another example. And there's another thing, which isn't really a retcon, but still (spoilers for End of Ages):
[spoiler]It really, REALLY saddened me to see the depiction of Myst island in Myst V. It just felt completely wrong in every possible way. It was as if Cyan was doing Pyst. I mean, I liked Pyst, but that was because I knew it was a parody, not the real thing... I tried to console myself by saying that, since you don't get to visit Myst if you complete the game, you never actually go there, so "rainy Myst" never happened. Myst may still look beautiful today.[/spoiler]


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:14 pm 
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[spoiler]Free Bird, I think the depiction of Myst in Myst V was meant to make you sad. That's the whole point. It's been, like, 200 years since we last saw it. The changes are beyond reasonable.[/spoiler]

As for "Myst is just a game and Uru is real": I accept it, because as I see it Myst is not JUST a game. It's a game that is based on something which really happened. When you know that (most players do only after they dig deeper into Uru), for me, the thing becomes even more immersive. The world of D'ni lives. This game wasn't invented by Cyan- it is a bunch of things which happened years ago, and now we can experience them- through games, and books (and hopefully movies? :P ). Seriously, a game is just another way to tell a story. Some people find that less immersive, some people find it more, but it's not a crime. And even if Robyn never wanted it to be this way- Rand did, and Robyn left Cyan.

It's not like the original product has been changed beyond recognition- it is just told in a different way. You are not even supposed to *know* it when you first play the games.

I think what Cyan tried to do in realMyst, was making a game which is less of game. Like telling us "what you played back in 1994 was an adaption of the events, but play realMyst and experience the REAL events". They never did that, and even if they would I won't accept it, because realMyst still felt like a game. BUT it was a try to make Myst more real. They didn't add bathrooms or a kitchen, that's true, but the sun moved, and so did the waves, among other things. It was more real. Now what I REALLY wanna see, is the real realMyst, so we can say that playing that is not an adaption, but "the real" experience. Something so awesome that will blow our minds. I guess I have to keep waiting. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:37 pm 
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What is it with my pony?

My personal view of art that depicts a world is that the artist has the privilege and responsibility of bringing that world to life in the viewer's/reader's eyes, but that there will always be elements of the world that remain behind or even that the artist got wrong. Thus, when one compares Tolkien's depictions of Middle Earth to Peter Jackson's, one is really comparing two views of the underlying reality that is/was Middle Earth, not Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien's work.

And so it is with Myst, with one exception. Myst and every other non-MOUL "game" are depictions of a reality brought to life by Cyan, and so "canon" lies in that reality, not in the games' depictions of that (those) world(s). The exception is the MMOG "game" Uru, because that is the world depicted in those Cyan games. Thus, Dr. Watson can be the one who freed the Bahro in the real world, yet we play ourselves in the game that is Myst 5. No retcon needed.

Or at least, that's what my pony told me. She hoof-paints, you know ...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:52 pm 
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[spoiler]
Quote:
It really, REALLY saddened me to see the depiction of Myst island in Myst V. It just felt completely wrong in every possible way. It was as if Cyan was doing Pyst. I mean, I liked Pyst, but that was because I knew it was a parody, not the real thing... I tried to console myself by saying that, since you don't get to visit Myst if you complete the game, you never actually go there, so "rainy Myst" never happened. Myst may still look beautiful today.

I thought of Pyst immediately as well ... but I approved. I wonder if the reference was intentional on Cyan's part.
[/spoiler]


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:42 pm 
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W-wow. Hello Robyn! First off, a big thank you for everything you've given to Myst and its Ages. And for coming here to chat! I'm psyched to know that you're working on a film right now! Definitely looking forward to that - or anything else you'll end up doing in the future. Riven's OST is still my to-go playlist for calming down, reflecting and creating. :)

robynmiller wrote:
So Rich... I just think all of this is a bummer and that's what I'm saying. Because with this change of "the stranger", Myst becomes a more passive experience. Myst becomes a historic recreation rather than live events that are happening to you, right now.


Others have already answered better than I ever could, but for some people, myself included, widening the perspective does not diminish the incredible narrative impact of the first two games. At all! I agree with Marten's stance of having the cake and eating it too. Especially if one gets into the series in the right order and without being spoiled.
Coming from an amateurish interest in gaming narrative, I see how Myst and Riven are amazing in their immersion and storytelling. As you said, they were tailored for that and it shows. It works, oh how it works, it's brilliant. I think that they are still one step (or three) above anyone else who's ever tried to write a silent and/or customizable protagonist in a videogame. Everyone can link to Myst and be themselves, the game 100% accommodates for whomever you are. Does Mass Effect, with all its fancy technology, accomplish that? Don't think so.
In the end though, when the game is over, we go back to our present and acknowledge that it's a videogame - not only that, but a videogame with a background much larger than the story we totally experienced in first person. I know that the first questions that popped into my mind as I finished the first game were "Ok, so why is everyone speaking English? Catherine, that's a human name. Where do these people come from?" I wanted answers to those questions and I still want to know a truckload of what I consider basic information (such as how Catherine's journals ended up in possession of the DRC and if that somehow factors in with her shady, shady death). On the other hand, I'm perfectly happy with many little mysteries remaining mysteries for imagination's sake. In thinking these and other nerdy thoughts, I'm already reasoning outside my intended pov as the games' protagonist. This doesn't detract from the immersion I feel when I'm actually playing the games. To me, they're like two different levels. And the same applies when a newer game comes and tells me that it, the new kid, is 'really really happening' and that the others were videogames in its wider mythology I just wish it would be crystal clear about it right off the bat, I spent half my first Journey too busy figuring it out to fully enjoy the experience, because I already knew that they were videogames and I can sort of experience the "wheeee I'm really there" all over again. Multiple layers. According to how my brain works, the latter does not erase the former. Aaaaand these last two sentences were really what I came here to say, sorry for the tl;dr. :roll:

PS I'm new and I have no idea where the actual term 'stranger' came from (waaay before being spoofed in Yeesha's Myst 5 diaries), but even nameless not-even-characters need a descriptor for people to talk about them... "Myst's main character, I mean me, also you, also possibly a nondescript person in 1806" is a bit awkward and everyone's a stranger to Myst Island, so I guess that early players came up with a reasonable fanon name?
(this isn't the time and place for singing an ode to Myst V and its choice of main character, I guess... that'll be another post for another thread and day. Whatevs, I loved it)

RAWA wrote:
3) There are only two butterflies on Myst Island and they keep precisely following the exact same few paths every time you see them. (Brand new retcon: Atrus spent all those years with nothing better to do than training his two pet butterflies (Moritmer and Willow) to follow those precise paths. (Relax... I'm kidding) :)


[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

...what do you mean "I'm kidding", I'd already planned a 30something-chapter fanfiction depicting their privileged perspective on the events which befell Myst Island. Bummer. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:13 pm 
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So I thought of something to ask Robyn about. What was the reasoning behind changing the linking sound in Riven? Was it to add to the darker atmosphere? Was it because you didn't like it? I have wondered this for a long time, since it's the same in all of the other Cyan made games, and figured you are the only person who can answer the question.

RAWA wrote:
mszv,There are only two butterflies on Myst Island and they keep precisely following the exact same few paths every time you see them. (Brand new retcon: Atrus spent all those years with nothing better to do than training his two pet butterflies (Moritmer and Willow) to follow those precise paths. (Relax... I'm kidding) :)


You just ruined someone's childhood RAWA. And I was just about to go create their mystlore articles too! :D

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