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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:42 am 
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Obduction Backer

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Anubislg wrote:
In any event, moving along on different matters,
the ICRS will be getting most of it's major upgrades this upcoming next week!

Thank you SO much everyone for the feedback, it's much welcomed! :)


Not to offend, but simply dismissing the issue as you appear to have done so there is rather unwise.

An issue such as this arose on CC (Cyan Chat) a few years back. A Chat Bot was posting logs of the chat publicly which caused some outrage (with various results).

There will be those who do not agree with this, respecting their opinions on this is going to be a must in order to keep things smooth.

Perhaps having the relay announce that the chat is being broadcast (and provide a link to the site) every 10 minutes or something could help. Not sure if ignoring is mutual if it is then it gives people the option to block the relay.

Another issue that will arise is the fact that the rely is in effect taking up a spot in the public place to be afk and broadcast. When things get busy I don't think this is going to fly (Kadish Gallery exploit aside).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:57 am 
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Location: Black Rock City!
Unless Cyan directly has something to say, this project will be going ahead.

Public instances are considered public for a reason. As private messages and private area's are considered private for a similar reason. I would assume that anyone going into a public instance would agree that they may be listened upon if they are shouting out loud. This goes without saying, am I wrong? There for, it also goes without saying that public instances are free to all to listen to, and free for all to see. Within the real world, we cannot alway see everyone whom is around us. It is for this reason that we commonly lower our voices, or go to an area farther from the general populace. The ICRS is not a "All hearing ear." For it also has a limited range, and cannot hear every location within the cavern. Also...when we wish to speak privately with one another, do we not whisper? This same function of whispering is also with URU, which might I add the ICRS of course cannot pickup.

There's an old saying...if you don't have anything nice to say, then perhaps you shouldn't say it at all. Is it fear that someone will catch you being not-entirely to nice towards them? Would it be that this system would force you to think twice about publicly denouncing someone, out of fear that they would hear you speaking behind their back? In short...would this system cause you to be more humanitarian?

We live in an interconnected world full of electrons that zip past us at blazing speeds, connecting everyone and everything. We are at a new era what communication reigns king, and where the old days of living in the dark, being stifled to not speak, are long over. We are all connected, and forever in the future will be even more so.

Do the relayers also not take up a spot in order to relay things going on as well? They do this for the betterment of cavern communication, as this system is so designed to do as well. Now, if it were only for my private use, then I could defiantly see a great problem there. But since this system is readily used for all, I believe a great majority of people would like to log onto a website than deal with the enormous amount of lag and confusion that ensues when a new episode is released. With a click of the button, they could follow they're favorite DRC member around the cavern.

This is my stance on the ICRS, and I shall stick with it.

Thank you,
Anubis LG


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:04 am 
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Location: British Columbia, Canada
I believe you may be interested in reading http://www.gametap.com/home/myst/content_codeofconduct.html

Particularly note 1.e:
Quote:
You may not modify any part of the Game. You may not attempt to interfere with, hack into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the clients and servers running the Game, nor may you use any game hacking, altering, or cheating software tools. You may not use any automated scripting or “macroing” tools or software without Licensors’ prior consent.


I think that the situation as a whole could be considered a "macroing" tool.

Also note that you may not post
Quote:
Any content or use that interferes with another user’s use and enjoyment of the Game, or any other individual’s user and enjoyment of the Game
or
Quote:
Any content or use that tries to gain unauthorized access to the Game, including without limitation profiles, blogs, chat rooms, communities, account information, bulletins, or other aspects of the Game or solicits passwords or personal identifying information for commercial or unlawful purposes from other users;


Also, since GD has authorized the use of the hood Bahro stone sharing bug; everyone should be able to get into the public city regardless of the population limit.

I for one, certainly feel that this takes some of my privacy away; and it definitely makes me less likely to visit public instances.

EDIT : I'm not saying that this is definitely in violation of the ToS, I'm just saying that I consider it to be violating at least some of the clauses. I agree that Cyan should have the final word.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:06 am 
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Location: Neveriven's bevin and "Neveriven" in Second Life.
Myst Online - Uru Live is a subscription only online game. Even if some of the game areas are classed as "public" they are still contained within the game. I pay my subscription to play the game in the knowledge that what I do , say, or type stays within the game.
I do not wish nor have I given my permission to have any of my ingame activites posted on a public website for all and sundry to see.
While I appreciate that a lot of hard work has gone into this "relay" project, I must respectfully ask, through this forum, that the website in question be taken down (removed) forthwith for the reasons I have stated above.
Thankyou.

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Last edited by Dichromus on Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:08 am 
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No modifications were made to the program.
No macro's were made.
No unauthorized access to the game has been made.

Shall I perhaps post a continues chat log here on the forums for all to see?
What would be the difference of me posting chat logs here on the forums, as opposed to the system I have set up?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:09 am 
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This topic is mute.

Admins, please close the topic, my temper is all ready very flared.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:12 am 
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Anubislg wrote:
What would be the difference of me posting chat logs here on the forums, as opposed to the system I have set up?


Very simple: chatlogs are expected to be filtered to only contain relevant messages, i.e. messages in the interest of the greater public rather than the individuals who happened to be around at the time. This is an implicit agreement, and thus far, most if not all chatlogs posted from MO:UL have stuck to it.

For what it's worth, I didn't mean to derail this thread. I remain convinced, however, that this issue needs to be sorted out first before you resume the relay. Pretending it's not a problem it isn't going to help anyone.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:26 am 
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Quote:
Licensors reserve the right, but have no obligation, to monitor communications and any disputes between you and other members, to remove or edit any material that in its sole opinion violates, or is alleged to violate, any applicable law or either the letter or spirit of the Code, or to terminate community privileges in appropriate circumstances. Notwithstanding this right of the Licensors, YOU REMAIN SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT OF THE MATERIALS YOU TRANSMIT IN THE PUBLIC AREAS OF THE GAME AND IN YOUR PRIVATE MESSAGES TO OTHER INDIVIDUALS ON THE GAME.


There for, it could be said that it is your sole responsibility for all chat dialog you post. And you are doing so willingly under this clause, and at your own risk.

Quote:
You understand and accept that it is possible that other registered members or users (including unauthorized users, or “hackers”) may post or transmit offensive or obscene materials on the Game and that you may be involuntarily exposed to such offensive and obscene materials. It may also be possible for others to obtain personal information about you due to your use of the Game, and that the recipient may use such information to harass or injure you. Licensors do not approve of such unauthorized uses but by using the Game you acknowledge and agree that Licensors are not responsible for the use of any personal information that you disclose on the Game. Please carefully select the type of information that you post or display on the Game


In conjunction with the above clause, this also says that the Licensors are not responsible for anything you say and disclose within the game.

Quote:
Any content that infringes upon or violates any third party’s rights, including but not limited to, intellectual property rights, rights of privacy, including unauthorized disclosure of a person’s name, e-mail address, physical address or phone number, and/or rights of publicity;


This clause does not apply to the ICRS, due to the nature in which the content is obtained (legally and willfully.) If the ICRS were to obtain the data in a forced manor, then it (the ICRS) would be bound to this clause. But due to the fact that it obtains all data from willing persons (from above clauses), it is within legal standing rights.

Source- http://www.gametap.com/home/myst/conten ... nduct.html

The defense rests your honor.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:18 pm 
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Shorah, Anubislg:

As Songe mentioned, I had written a tool (with Herohtar's help) that streams images of your MO:UL screen to a web site, like a web cam. I contacted Cyan's legal team to get permission to use and distribute the tool, and they replied, giving me the text for a legal disclaimer to post at the bottom of the page. I recommend you do the same for your tool; their email address is legal AT cyan.com.

Regarding privacy: when using the CavernCam, I tell everyone in the vicinity that I have it on when I first enter the area. If anyone objects, I'll turn it off. Users of your tool should probably follow the same guidelines.

Good luck!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:48 pm 
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Berry Interesting,

This kinda Sounds Like TeamSpeak Gone Wild on Video, :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:02 pm 
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We had this discussing about 2 months ago when I introduced my idea and proof of concept for a chat relay. I implemented a set of filter rules and formatters that removed chat from non important people (DRC). I also implemented some commands to opt in for relaying.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:55 pm 
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I'm following this thread with interest as much as I like the tool (well done for writing it) I can see problems with it for the reasons mentioned above - privacy concerns and the possibility that Cyan does not agree with the use of this tool.

Why would Cyan not like the use of the tool you ask? Well I could imagine some people saying - hey, I don't need a subscription now as I can follow what's happening in the public areas without logging on. Yes, I know that one can read the posted chat logs for the major events (i.e. episodes) but with your tool, public chat between episodes or events can be accessed without the need ever to log onto MOUL. Remember Cyan (and Gametap) would like us all to log on (frequently) between episodes and not just during an episode.

Perhaps a compromise (with Cyan's permission of course) is that you could code your tool so that it filters and only displays the IC Relay messages during episodes. As those messages can be found in the chat logs anyway, that would address the privacy issue and negate people thinking of giving up their subscription (if that was the case). It would also be a very useful tool for people who couldn't log on during an episode because of technical difficulties.

Just a thought. Shorah!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:47 pm 
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The ICRS has no further public comments.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:11 pm 
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Well if the program is taking the chat logs and just posting them, its not breaking any TOS. The program sounds interesting enough.

Anubislg - please email me or [email protected]

Thanks

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