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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:45 pm 
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It would be a lot easier to accept the criticism if it was sprinkled with some praise from the same critics.It's hard to believe they support Uru when they say nothing positive. I'm not asking for a matching essay or anything just a quick, "...this was done badly and needs to be fixed, but I liked this addition/change".

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:04 pm 
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Frisky Badger wrote:
It would be a lot easier to accept the criticism if it was sprinkled with some praise from the same critics.It's hard to believe they support Uru when they say nothing positive. I'm not asking for a matching essay or anything just a quick, "...this was done badly and needs to be fixed, but I liked this addition/change".

It would help, yes, but it should not be a requirement. Also, keep in mind that people may be posting in the heat of the moment and will be less concerned with how they are perceived vs. venting on this issue.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:24 pm 
Then again, we're talking about "complaints" as if they were all the same, every one as valid as the next. "Don't complain unless you have suggestions for how to fix it" is a fairly primitive way of establishing a rule of thumb to sort the valid and useful complaints from the ones that are merely capricious. No, I agree, it shouldn't have to be a hard and fast rule. I shouldn't have to pay taxes that get spent on bombs either.

It's also fairly easy to tell heat-of-the-moment venting from the deliberate spreading of alarm and despondency. Round about the sixth time it crops up you can be fairly sure.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:24 pm 
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I have to agree with almost everything Whil has said. I too have fallen into the, "kill the messenger" group once or twice. I have worked hard not to do that. This may be a good time to bring up some sticking points in our community. Here's one for starters.

What will we say to those that come here and say, "This game is stupid. Where are the guns. I need something to shoot!"?
My opinion or answer would be more along the lines, "This game may not be for you."

or are we going to say, "Well, you are more than welcome to write such an age."

I know the whole FPS is a real sticking point in our community and I like the unique parts of the Myst worlds.
What if there was a way to balance all on-line games into one?
Do you... do we want to go there? I am willing to go with the majority here. My preference to to not have a FPS environment.

You are not going to make this imaginary person happy just telling them MORE is not about violence. They are going to leave. So either we have acceptable losses and try not to anger ppl because of their personal preference or we bend our on ideas. I'm just asking, which way do you all as a community want to go on these issues? I say issues because there will be more issues that to some of us go against what we think is a core Myst virtue.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:34 pm 
I say go with acceptable losses...but then, I've long ago accepted that D'ni is a minority interest and always will be. The virtue of the MORE plan is that it can work with that.

I would be really really happy if everything I have ever loved were equally loved by everyone else in the world. It wouldn't be boring--with so many different viewpoints all coming together, how could it be? But it ain't so. Prog rock, though alive and well, is not sweeping the charts, even the album charts. Blake's Seven has its enthusiasts, and you could probably fit them all into one medium-sized theatre. Uru is not for everyone, and there is no sense in trying to pretend it is. I think there are still more potential explorers out there...but not legions.

To make an FPS area in Uru would, I think, require a radical overhaul of the game mechanics anyway, and we've already got a wish list as long as my arm for when/if Cyan gets round to that.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:12 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
Frisky Badger wrote:
It would be a lot easier to accept the criticism if it was sprinkled with some praise from the same critics.It's hard to believe they support Uru when they say nothing positive. I'm not asking for a matching essay or anything just a quick, "...this was done badly and needs to be fixed, but I liked this addition/change".

It would help, yes, but it should not be a requirement. Also, keep in mind that people may be posting in the heat of the moment and will be less concerned with how they are perceived vs. venting on this issue.


I'm not saying it should be a requirement. But if the complainers want the non-complainers to stop complaining about their complaints, it's something to keep in mind. :P

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:30 pm 
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But if the complainers want the non-complainers to stop complaining about their complaints, it's something to keep in mind.


hehehehheheheheheh wow, i just about spilled ALL of my second cup of coffee on that piece of wisdom :) thanks for a big laugh on this...........

ya it is cool to vent and make suggestions and even to discuss, bring it on, more the merrier and I will continue to happily respond in the same spirit. I feel a positive outcome is for us all to have fun, each in their own way, and and I continue to be amazed at the presumption of ppl who think they can freely and without question come to the "home" of a game created with love and great effort and throw stones when it is struggling to be reborn.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:09 pm 
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zander_nyrond wrote:
To make an FPS area in Uru would, I think, require a radical overhaul of the game mechanics anyway, and we've already got a wish list as long as my arm for when/if Cyan gets round to that.


While I agree with this statement, remember it is only one example. Plus just because it'd be hard to do does not mean it will not come up. I wouldn't want someone from an FPS community leaving here thinking we are all @holes because of an argument. There are many of his friends who might have liked our community if they had not heard the bad report about our community in general from their buddy.

I can bring something up more relevant and doable with what we have.

You link into an age and see blood on the walls with a clawed out hole. Peering to the outside thru the hole which is too small to crawl thru you see a Bahro slashing off the head of a person.

This leads to the general violence level allowed in the Myst worlds. We have accepted story of violent actions but never really wanted to see it up close and personal. How far is too far. What do you say to the player that thinks the game is too cautious, too lame. Scares already brought this one up. Many thought Scares went too far. This is an important one for the future age writers. Their worlds may have had a pretty rough past to them.

I am not posing these things so we have ready made arguments for everything that comes up. That will not be possible. I am asking these questions because they have come up in this forum before and they were met by some with anger.
These topics are not a matter of just saying, "Well you make it better." or "What would you suggest." because the suggestion may be a place we do not want to go. We will still have to answer these groups of ppl nicely but firmly. We don't need the answers to all these questions. We just the need to be polite.

I guess I just want to make sure everyone knows it's alright to say, "Yes you are right our game does not have that (insert thing). Our game is not about those things. We appreciate your comments but feel that this game is probably something you may not enjoy.

WE do NOT want to go down the path of FPS games are stupid and only idiots play them! We have alienated ppl in our own community with these kinds of comments and they no longer post in this forum. Think about how many new players have just left never saying a word from comments like these. Choose your words carefully.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:33 pm 
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Well, i do have a problem with complaints.

Criticism is good, but just saying this or that sucks never helped anything..

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Actually, some of these questions about what sort of player will we welcome here depend a lot on Cyan's vision for the game. Yes, we can tell a die-hard giblet-loving FPSer that we welcome him, and if he wants a Deathmatch Age and can't find one already made, he can make his own. But more so than the fact that the engine doesn't really support deathmatch-style play, what happens when a person makes an age (and I'm speaking more generically here, not specifically about the aforementioned deathmatch example), puts in tons of effort, submits it, and is told that, no, his vision is not welcome here, because his age includes scenes of grotesque violence / naked nymphs zipping from tree to tree / has misspelled swear words in all the journals / etc.? And moreover, who makes such a decision?

I guess what I'm getting at is a more general concept - that in order to keep yourself from making enemies, you (meaning Cyan and/or the Guilds and/or anybody else making decisions about the direction of the game) have to be up front about the direction the game will take, what sorts of UCC are acceptable, what sorts of user behavior are acceptable, and what kind of game the player should expect to see. And moreover, you have to ensure that once a person starts investing time in the game, you don't pull the rug out from under them by changing those answers in such a way that such a person's play/build style is no longer welcome when it was tacitly approved before (see Star Wars Galaxies' NGE, etc.).

The problem at this moment is twofold: these questions haven't been fully answered, because UCC was never really part of the official mix until now/soon; and most fans of MOUL already have substantial time invested in it, meaning that any answers run the risk of going against the expectations that some people have for the game. The flat-out naysayers are likely looking at this situation and seeing that their expectations will probably never be met by what's been provided so far, regardless of how those questions are answered, which leaves pure negativity as the only remaining route to have their expectations fulfilled.

The best way past that is to simply move on as quickly as possible to the point where it's clear that the roadmap is going to happen (rather, is happening), and see whether the naysayers will come along or not. If they do, that's great - and hopefully, their different mindset will result in them providing unique and interesting things to MORE. If not, they'll eventually lose interest altogether and move on to other things. But if you give people time to complain about things that ultimately aren't going to change, because you've left some perceived uncertainty that makes them think that these matters aren't settled, you'll eventually get to the same point, except with everyone a bit (or a lot) more demoralized.

(Sorry, I think I started rambling in there a bit ;) )


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:57 pm 
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I know I shouldn't get into this but I'll try to be sensitive. First, I do agree with Whilyam including the part about his participation. After watching countless good threads spiral down into endless squabbling, I believe one can spot the cause for most of these disasters. It is not disagreement. That happens all the time and most of us can handle it. It is something more insidious and damaging. It's the craving to always have the last word. Rather than hear each other out and then drop it, some/many will re-chew the issue without adding any more data or modifying their position. It's mostly to have that last word. And it goes round and round getting more heated each turn.

I think Whilyam’s long post above is one of many examples (not picking on you specifically Whilyam). Have your say, have it twice. Then if there is no change, let it go.

Peace?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:13 pm 
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Joey Zoonishii wrote:
I don't think people know what it means for a reasoned argument to "hold water" anymore. Culturally, people have degraded into this "everybody is right" stuff that makes it impossible to discuss anything. Everyone has to navigate a field of eggshells and gosh forbid if you hurt someone's feelings.

People don't seem to grasp that reasoned argument demands emotional detachment.


~Joey "Socrates" Barbinjanjou


Dear Socrates, as always, your posts give me a hearty chuckle and something to think about.:lol: Very nicely put indeed!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:01 pm 
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Frisky Badger wrote:
It would be a lot easier to accept the criticism if it was sprinkled with some praise from the same critics.It's hard to believe they support Uru when they say nothing positive. I'm not asking for a matching essay or anything just a quick, "...this was done badly and needs to be fixed, but I liked this addition/change".


Please realize that most people are here because they enjoy the game on some level. Those that are here that really don't like the game at all are just being trolls. That said, someone who posts mostly criticism doesn't necessarily hate the game. Expecting everyone to say things like "The Uru community sure is great!" or "The design of Teledahn is absolutely amazing!" before every criticism is silly, because we all pretty much agree on things like that. We've all discussed things that we love about Uru, and for the most part, we're going to stick around and those things aren't going to change as long as Uru exists in some form or another. It's awesome to still talk about what makes Uru great, but it shouldn't be a prerequisite for talking about its faults.

Another important point to realize is that the majority of the complainers don't complain because they want Uru to fail (again, if they do, they're just being trolls and deserve no respect.) People point out faults because they want Uru to become better. Yet, in any of the threads pointing out things which could be problematic in MORE, there are a lot of people shunning the poster for being negative in the wake of the grand news that Uru is returning. I've yet to read one post here (granted, I haven't read everything) that outright says "I don't think Cyan should be going forward with this; MORE is going to fail miserably." Yet several times I've seen comments along the lines of "I wish Cyan were handling this a little bit differently; I'm worried that it might go wrong" get interpreted as such.

Being optimistic is one thing, but let's take off the rose-colored glasses, or at least be kind and respectful to those who choose not to wear them. We all need to realize at this point that Uru is not perfect. Yes, we should be very appreciative of what we have. I'm thrilled that MORE is allowing it to live once again. We're all still here because we love Uru. But it's not perfect, and it's going to take a lot of work to get there.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:14 pm 
Rotahgahm, you're absolutely right and nobody is disagreeing with you on any point, least of all me as my posts have hopefully made clear. It's the ones who seem to me to be being trolls that worry me.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:19 pm 
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The only way to deal with a troll is to ignore them or let the mods handle them. Trying to get them to leave is like trying to hold back the wind. The harder you try, the harder they will blow.

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