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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:43 pm 
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Let's see who can write the longest essay in one post! Let's go for a two-pager, baby!


:roll: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:05 am 
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The Noble Robot wrote:
Are we having fun yet? :lol: :lol: Just like old times! :wink:


*groan*


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:24 am 
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Sophia wrote:
The Noble Robot wrote:
Are we having fun yet? :lol: :lol: Just like old times! :wink:


*groan*


Hey, don't you go complaining about the only feature in MOUL that actually worked... the complaining!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:28 am 
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Can we have a whole thread about grammar, please?

;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:17 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Can we have a whole thread about grammar, please?


Phwa?? What does grammar have to do with anything?

(And with that, we have officially lost all semblance of reality. It is just like old times... :wink:)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:06 am 
The Noble Robot wrote:
Quote:
Destructive criticism is acceptable but has no merit if there isn't at least some call (implicit or otherwise) for suggestions.


I've used this analogy before, but it is apt (in at least a rhetorical sense)... Hey, anyone have a solution for Iraq? No? Then it must be going swimmingly. How about Social Security? No, don't know how to fix that, either? Well, then your opinions clearly have no merit.


I have a first step in mind for Iraq. Whether it has merit or not I don't know. I have read about solutions for Social Security which make a lot of sense to me, but someone else might disagree. But in any case, I think your analogy is less than apt, unless you regard a computer game as equivalent to (a) a misconceived, greed-motivated, badly-planned and -executed attempt at a land grab which has cost thousands of lives and has no end in sight, or (b) the natural result of years of government run by people who choose to ignore the fundamental duties of that government. Destructive criticism of either of those things is fully justified, because they could both (the war in Iraq and the problems with Social Security) be said to spring from destructive motives themselves. Uru does not. Its flaws are exactly that, flaws, not features.

At the same time, if the criticism does not propose solutions, then no, it's not very useful. Doesn't mean the thing criticised is any good. It is better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness. And if someone wants to stick their tongue in a mousetrap, you find out why they want to do it, and either come up with an alternative way to produce the same effect, or explain why the desired effect would be a bad thing. Just saying "don't" is unlikely to be successful.

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Is there anyone here who is out to destroy Uru?? Of course not, and no one truly thinks that, either,


Really? Oh well. If you say so. (It occurs to me I should elaborate a little on that, before someone sends the men in white coats around. Of course I don't think anyone is seriously out to "destroy" Uru. I do think, though, that there have been posters on this forum who do not care about it one way or the other and who think it is fun, metaphorically speaking, to scribble obscenities all over it and try to scare people away from it. if anyone can convince me otherwise I'll be very grateful.) In the meantime, no-one's answered the question in my last...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:26 pm 
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zander_nyrond wrote:
Okay, I'm getting tired of this. Can anyone quote a post wherein any attempt whatsoever is made to stifle an alternative way of thinking? Has this in fact happened and I just missed it?


here

While it was dodged, the implication was clear. I really don't have the time to find all the instances where someone or another has told someone they're wrong and to "go play WoW".

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:18 pm 
I do not agree. I asked why he was here. I've been asking the same question for what feels like years because i want to know the answer, and I want the person him- or herself to tell me. Call it disingenuity if you like. It happens to be the truth. I keep asking, and other people chime in and say e.g. "oh, he's just called Uru [insert uncomplimentary phrase here] and said he's not going to bother with it because he cares about it and wants to improve it." I never hear an answer from the actual complainer. They don't have to answer me, true, but then I don't have to stop asking.

I see no attempt to "stifle an alternative way of thinking." I see some impatience with the repetition of pointlessly negative comments, and for that I'm willing to take the rap. I get impatient a lot. Especially with people still sounding the alarm about some mythical assault on free speech which is a complete straw man with my name on it.

Let's try this one more time. If a friend of mine is trying to run a hotel, and I post up on the web that the drains are wonky (a problem of which he is aware and which he intends to fix as soon as he has some money to pay for it), people are not going to go and stay at that hotel because I was so honest about it. Nor is my friend going to thank me when he goes out of business.

But I've already thrown in the towel. The last thing I want is for anyone to feel they can't say what they truly think. Let freedom ring, by all means, and we'll see what it brings in.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:44 pm 
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Quoting myself (oh jeeze, I can't believe I'm doing that, lol)
Quote:
This reminds me of something I meant to say in my previous post. I think we could probably add dissenting into the mix, here. People have the right to dissent without worry they are disloyal (or unpatriotic) or destructive, or disengaged from the process. Dissenting from within a community seems to take courage these days, as it, like the critiquing, attracts cries of (pick a word from above). It does serve a purpose even if only to slow the complete silencing of an alternative way of thinking.


zander_nyrond wrote:
Okay, I'm getting tired of this. Can anyone quote a post wherein any attempt whatsoever is made to stifle an alternative way of thinking? Has this in fact happened and I just missed it?


I just want to clear up one thing. Zander, you were NOT the person I had in mind when I said this. I was actually thinking about some old, old issues about myself feeling pressured to conform when I simply wasn't of a mind to. If the flow of conversation caused you to perceive my post as targeting you, I apologize for not following that flow more carefully and clarifying up front. If someone else sees this statement as targeting Zander, please remove that imagery from your mental catalogue and refrain from using it as ammunition. I am only saying this to clarify my statement, and not to begin engaging in any more "responding" types of posts. That would be rather hypocritical of me, and I do try not to be hypocritical.

My apologies for vagueness, but not for mentioning dissent.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:37 pm 
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zander_nyrond wrote:
I do not agree. I asked why he was here.

Which is a similar question asked before by other people more forcefully than you. In essence, most people are going to take that as "Why are you here?" with the implication of "Why don't you leave?" In the case I quoted, the person didn't believe MORE would succeed, which is possible, but it's in the interest of improving the game by bringing that discussion up. This discussion could open itself up to a more rational debate, but not if the first thing said is (in essence from what I read not simply of you) "It doesn't matter, we have no other choice, why are you here?"

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I get impatient a lot. Especially with people still sounding the alarm about some mythical assault on free speech which is a complete straw man with my name on it.

And making references to me or anyone else bringing up this topic won't help this. This is what I feel needs to change. I'm on your side. I'm not bringing up a "mythical assault", I'm bringing up a valid point for debate to help grow this game. Now we can either put our energies towards this argument, or we can put them towards being constructive in building the game. The answer to negativity is not more negativity.

Quote:
Let's try this one more time. If a friend of mine is trying to run a hotel, and I post up on the web that the drains are wonky (a problem of which he is aware and which he intends to fix as soon as he has some money to pay for it), people are not going to go and stay at that hotel because I was so honest about it. Nor is my friend going to thank me when he goes out of business.

Except this hotel has more potential problems than the bad drains. Additionally, the severity of the problems (or existence) is debatable. And let's add to that the fact that there may be other issues we don't notice in our rooms (bricks falling off the exterior, etc.). Now, to continue your analogy, true no one will stay because you pointed that out. However, people will also not check in and find those problems on their own only to come to you and demand to know why they weren't told about them (in case you're wondering, those people usually form the "complainers" who are angry and emotional largely on account of the surprise of finding out problem X, Y, and/or Z). See, a good chunk of Uru fans love this game despite its downsides, however they do so only because they were aware of them (which is why I'm glad to see Chogon being open about crucial things such as Cyan content and delivery because even if no one knows how the structure will work, people are now aware of that). So, no, we obviously won't gain people by simply being honest. However we may retain people by not being dishonest.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:48 pm 
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This is all well and good, but it comes down to a single point, this forum has to much red in it


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:52 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
This is all well and good, but it comes down to a single point, this forum has to much red in it

:shock:

LOL. Best post ever. :P

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:58 pm 
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:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:07 am 
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The Noble Robot wrote:
Sophia wrote:
The Noble Robot wrote:
Are we having fun yet? :lol: :lol: Just like old times! :wink:


*groan*


Hey, don't you go complaining about the only feature in MOUL that actually worked... the complaining!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: Way funny...

But it was not the only thing that worked... speculation has always been online and working... and no lag involved in it. One has to wait for something to happen or not happen to complain about it. Speculators just jump in and speculate... That is bound to draw out a complainer...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:04 am 
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this doesn't add up to

jack

squat.



I'm very sorry to be so blunt, but someone has to say it. I'm usually all for big complicated debates, but this is... This has no value. This isn't even a mental exercise. This reminds me of two English gentlemen politely slapping each other with their gloves. What is being debated here is how complainers, critics, dissenters, or general malcontent should be treated, and whether or not dissent actually does any harm. The reality is that true, hardcore trolls are very rare around here. We get some snipers, (people who lurk at the edges and take potshots whenever convenient) or the occasional grenade, (someone who blows up once in all directions) but we don't really see that many trolls; and there will never be a forum, this one or otherwise, that will be free of people who complain or disagree.

And the problem I'm having with all this is that every contrary voice, be they justified or totally in left field, is being treated like some kind of big deal. I'm not saying that every dissenting voice is mistreated, I'm saying the reactions to their words are not only blown out of proportion, but are totally unecessary to begin with. From people flat out telling them they're wrong, to people spending excessive amount of time and energy and space on the forum trying to explain something to someone who doesn't want to hear it...every word is a waste of keystrokes.

A debate is one thing, and discussions are another... but unless you're talking about the meaning of life or the end of the world, you have to ask yourself: is all that energy spent on one thing really even worth it? What is the end value of this? In three months, this thread is going to be buried, and half of what everybody said is going to fall right out of our heads. Our ten paragraph, quote-splicing, ten-pound arguments (including this one) are going to be reduced to a vague memory, only to be remembered by someone in a year when another similar discussion comes up, and then it all gets recycled again.

Want to know the easy way to deal with people who when they complain about Uru? Let me just cut past everything else and answer that. Here it is: say what you have to say, and move on.

I'm guilty of being sucked into arguments with people who are unhappy about something here. The important thing that I realized was that, for whatever reason they are complaining, however much damage (real or imagined) I may think it is causing, however wrong they may be, I learned that when someone is complaining constantly, they are not going to change their mind until something changes. And me sitting there trying to get them to see that is not going to work. They either get what they want, or they will become disatisfied to the point where they either change their mindset or leave.

Whilyam, I understand why it irks you when people say things like "why are you here?" But the problem is, when anybody complain about something, they inevitably open themselves to that question. It's only a fair thing to ask. It's not an insult, it's not a slap, it is a simple question. If you don't like it, what keeps you here? And if the answer is that they like Uru and they want to see it change and be successful, then joy for them. Whatever it is they don't like isn't likely to change, so if you like it here, then I guess they're willing to put up with it. And if not, then they will leave. It is that simple.

Complaining gets way more attention than it deserves on this forum. We spend far too much time phsycoanalyzing each other around here. Let's just learn to care a little less. And if that's not realistic for some people, then I would say at least realize that not everyone cares about whatever you're complaining about as much as you do.

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