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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:35 pm 
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I agree with you zander,however notice that MOUL was cancelled because there were not enough fans,and now there are even less,so it's no good for cyan worlds.

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Advertising it at all in the first six months would be trying to run before we've got any legs.


Doing nothing will also "kill" cyan worlds.That's the problem.I rather try to recommend it to few people,if cyan worlds can promise us that the content creation tools will be available.That way,new players will also have something to look for (I'm guessing the tools won't be available right away).

The main point is: we "must" (if we really want that,anyway) make this game worth developing for cyan worlds,so they will win their game which I'm sure they would like to work on,and we will win a better game.

I believe MOUL can be a great seller,and now that it's in our hands,we should do what we can to bring more people,and help cyan worlds start developing things to the game too.

Some years ago,it was myst and riven who made cyan worlds a big company with lot's of staff and money.They could make BIG games.Now they can't,and I would even say gametap didn't helped much,although they kept them running.So I think we need to play the role of both the developer AND the publisher,until cyan worlds will once again be a big company with lot's of staff and money,and they will make MOUL a big game,fix the low quality content and give us new high quality content.

(lately I'm making a lot of long posts.I should stop that :shock: ).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:58 pm 
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Since we're on the topic of what we "must" do... we "must" get things in place as a whole. The Guilds should be working on ways for them to be more efficient and fully-featured with no excuses. If the people currently doing the work can't do it on their own, then we need to get more people involved. I know there are a lot of people interested on making this a great game.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:07 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
The Guilds should be working on ways for them to be more efficient and fully-featured with no excuses.

If you will take some time out of your busy day and go read the Guild forums you will see they are doing just that. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:37 pm 
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From what I see everyone is doing great things and everyone means well by their interest and care about the future, and posts to that effect are to encourage and are not intended to criticize anyone. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:14 pm 
The stranger wrote:
Doing nothing will also "kill" cyan worlds.That's the problem.


I'm not so sure it will. At least, as Whilyam said, there are things we can be doing to be ready for when MORE starts, and for when they're ready to allow UCC...but what I derived from Cyan's letter and roadmap was that they've worked out a way to make a steady-state Uru feasible without leeching funds or resources from Cyan. This gives us a grace period in which to find out how we actually do at providing UCC.

Now imagine: if we start trying to pull people in as soon as the Cavern reopens, what are they going to see? If they've already seen MOUL, or if they've read these forums, they're going to see the same stuff over again, and a lot of vague promises which, knowing what happened with MOUL, they'll think they know better than to believe. Result: lots of disappointed ex-customers all telling their friends not to bother. That will hurt Cyan, because it'll impact on the reputation of anything else they do.

If we wait till we've got some good Ages under our belt before we start making announcements, then what the new arrivals will see is new stuff. And if they see new stuff, even if it's not that brilliant at first, they're more likely to believe in the possibility of more new stuff. Result: they stay around to see what's happening, maybe contribute stuff of their own, and MORE starts to expand. That will benefit Cyan and us. (Side point: there's actually a telling argument in there for not worrying about making our own Ages too brilliant. We want people to think "I could do that," not "I could never do that." If the Ages I'd downloaded from ULM had all been of "Cyan quality," I'd have been daunted.)

There are far more reasons to be cautious than there are to push too hard.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:43 pm 
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In that case,zander,cyan worlds should tell us when they hope the tools,if it's 1 year later than you are right,but it's few weeks or a month later than new players won't have to wait too much.

Except,I think that the deal is showing the game to people who didn't play ABM.If they did not play ABM,they still got a lot to see,and if they didn't playonly MOUL,they got the new MOUL content to see (however,they should be noted that although still fun, the new content is somewhat lower quality and why is that).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:48 pm 
Well, I think we need at least a year using the tools before we start showing off. I certainly don't expect my first five or six efforts to be anything that I would want new players to see. Maybe other people are more optimistic.

And Cyan will doubtless tell us when they have something to tell us. They have so far.

But when it comes to advertising, it's overwhelmingly likely that the first people who will be attracted back are the ones who played MOUL, or UU, or just ABM, and gave up. And they will be the hardest to convince that this is a living thing this time, as well as the most important. It will take a big spread of new, good, fan-created Ages already there to show them that we are not just a handful of hobbyists indulging in mutual admiration, and we'll only get that with time.

I really don't think it will do any harm to wait a bit and see how we do as Age Writers. It certainly won't harm Cyan, and it will make that all-important first impression so much more effective.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:04 pm 
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You,and other people can try to make a better age as much as you want before releasing it to the players.It's good.I've seen some fan made ages,that,although work on them was hard and they were fun,I could call "crap".They made no sense.Some of them were a bit ugly at few places.I know that the writers do their best,but still...

Though there are some writers with good ages ready.

2 thing I would like to get fixed,are:

1.the smeared textures at many places.

2.the sharp models at many places.

I truly hoped those things could be fixed...if not,we will get a lot of lower quality content,which won't do much good for the game,and will keep new players away.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:23 pm 
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I am sure everyone does his best.
I am also impressed by the great work we saw till now.
And be sure Cyan saw the quality those builders have.
I am sure Cyan knows what they are doing.
So I think using the word "crap" is not right.
Bringing up suggestions is OK, but try to keep this discussion constructive,
That said let us be patient and see what MORE brings us.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:52 pm 
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Quote:
I am sure everyone does his best.


Me too.

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I am also impressed by the great work we saw till now.


Me too,the fact that people can make ages is great.But the quality...mmm...some are less good than the others.

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I am sure Cyan knows what they are doing.


Right.

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So I think using the word "crap" is not right.


Sorry about that.

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That said let us be patient and see what MORE brings us.


Indeed.

As an example,look at du'ex age,eh'ko.It's AMAZING.It has no sharp models,and the textures fit in perfectly.It looks like an age with truly fun exploration.It's small,but I'm sure it will go larger in time.This is an age I would love to visit in MOUL.

So,maybe the higher quality modelers,like andy,du'ex,and paradox,can teach the lower quality modelers how to make high quality fan made ages,before MOUL goes up (and during MOUL).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:36 pm 
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veralun wrote:
I am sure everyone does his best.

Nah, not me. I am too lazy for proper modeling. Or maybe I just happen to like cubes. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:55 am 
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Stranger:

I see your point about "episodes" if by that you mean episodes in the sense that they were offered the last time around. I don't think the "live episode" idea that was tried in the latter part of Uru Live worked well. I think that "hardware" issues were part of that. I think that "story" issues were part of that. (In fact, I find the rather New Agey Yeesha and the Bahro business not at all to my taste. Never liked it but I tried to ignore it and focus on the parts of the experience that I enjoyed.)

Again, this is just one person's opinion but I think that the key is to have nice environments, well thought out and well integrated puzzles and a bit of a detective story or adventure. Of course, multiple stories can be happening within or across ages. Different styles of artwork will be an interesting possibility as well. One advantage of expansion packs, in the traditional sense, is that they allow for content update and story advancement without all the "live" issues. The "live" element, if by this one means "live actors playing "roles" is an intriguing idea but at the very least, there are timezone problems. That is, unless there are multiple "troupes" of online actors playing the roles in different time zones. (I would imagine that such a thing would complicate the "instancing" situation.) If, on the other hand, I have an expansion pack in the usual sense, the story can proceed according to my schedule or, in the case of co-operative activities, a schedule agreeable to a group of friends. The online part is still there. The story is still there. The public and private spaces are still there. The community is still there, and we all get the chance to experience the tale or tales. Depending on how it is handled, different groups on different servers may be able to take their "instance" of various stories in new and different directions from another group, so there may even be chances to influence stories in a manner similar to that envisioned for URU Live.

Also, it might lead to a more stable, slightly less insane development schedule, giving the developers, both Cyan and fans, time to refine and perfect their product.

In any case, I think we can all agree that all possibilities should be explored. Some developers and some players may choose one method, others another and still others a third or fourth way. As long as it makes for a pleasant, harmless diversion that we can all enjoy it's all good as far as I am concerned.

Cheers. 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:25 am 
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LL: good post.

You can call it episode or expansion pack,but baisicly it's putting the content in a certain thing/time.This is not what uru is supposed to be,I think.

So,my suggestion,instead of an expansion pack of some sort,is that cyan worlds will hire many employees,and we will make the game worth development for cyan worlds (the game bringing enough money for good content),and when cyan worlds will be big like they were in 2003,they can start telling the story in a better way,more story events so everyone will have a chance to the a CWPC (cyan worlds played character),fix the lower quality content,and give us new high quality content.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:06 am 
Yes, ideally we all want Cyan to be big and successful and make new Uru content for us as well as pursuing the new games they want to make. But it isn't going to happen soon, and it isn't going to happen until or unless (a) MORE has stayed up for a good long while in its steady-state form, (b) we've thoroughly mastered whatever tools emerge from Cyan, (c) we've got enough good Ages made, incorporated and running in MORE to be able to offer a completely new experience to old and new players alike. That's the only way Cyan will be able to derive any benefit from MORE.

What you say is perfectly true, but it isn't as simple as you're making it sound. It worries me that if all this doesn't happen instantaneously as soon as MORE opens up, you're going to get disenchanted with the whole thing. Right from the start, the cardinal virtue Cyan have shown in all their game-worlds and in all their dealings with their fans...is patience. We need to learn from that patience, and use it ourselves.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:35 am 
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Zander: I may sound like that,but I never said it would be easy.It's not.It will take time.But maybe we can try to speed up our higher quality age creation before the restoration experiment starts,so we will have a bit better start? I know it's hard,but with all the writers around,it will be great to have new ages more frequently.as I said before,maybe the top writers,with the best,high quality ages,can give lessons to the new or less quality writers,and teach them how to do the high quality things? remember that new players do not have the same thinking as ours,they want to get high quality fan made ages,they don't care about the conditions and problems.

If we will only publish and advertise the game,than new players will be disappointed from the game it self.

If we will only develop and make new content for the game,we will get the same thing as "until uru",a little dream world for our "not big enough" community,with a lot of people not knowing about the game.

So,we need to do half and half.If one is more than the other,it's no good.

You also said,before,that our first target should retired MOUL/ABM/CC players.Why? won't it be more logical to start with people who never played ANY uru? they won't be dissapointed that easily.They got a lot of fun there: minkata,teledahn,ahnonay,and more.For them,I guess,fan made ages will be a nice bonus,something to do after they finish the official content.

When I recommand MOUL to other people,I tell them what's good and fun in this game.However,I also tell them the other things: that some of cyan worlds made content will be higher quality and the other lower,and why is that.That way they will know what they are coming into.I will also give them the features of the "real" version of uru,and will tell them what cyan worlds told us: if the game will be successful,they will start the features of the "real" game,and that every one who joins help us reach that!

So,this is I what we should do: first get completely new players.When it works,and when game develops a bit,move to ABM/CC players,while keep working on the completely new players.When it works,and when game is more developed,move to MOUL retired players,while keep working on the ABM/CC players,and on the completely new players.

It won't be easy,and it will take time,but now when we got MOUL restoration experiment,it is possible.

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