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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:10 pm 
What I meant to say (sorry I didn't make it clear) was that, however we advertise, the first people who will hear about it are most likely to be people who've already encountered an incarnation of Uru. We don't have any control over that end of things, and we can't afford to discount that strong possibility. So, right from the moment we start advertising, we have to have a product that is new and different enough to convince those people, because the last thing we need, when we're yelling "Come and see MORE, it's going to be great!" is a bunch of other people yelling "Don't listen to them, I've seen it and it's the same old stuff!"

I think we're going to have to stay small for the time being, while we're developing our Ages. I don't know if there's any point in trying to create Ages for MORE before MORE exists--it seems to me the software is going to be very different, and Uru:CC Ages will not be portable into MORE. I may be wrong about that...

But one thing I know is that if we jump the gun, if we push MORE at people before there's anything there that wasn't in MOUL, and put off our customer base before we start, then MORE will never be anything bigger than a little UU-style community.

Personally, I can live with that if that's all there is--but I'd like to think that this could be our chance to show the world that Uru can succeed.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:37 pm 
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dtierce wrote:
FreeLanZer wrote:
Do you think that Cyan Worlds will be making official content for MORE like they did in MOUL?
And do you think they will mark the fan-made ages with a recognizable stamp like the DRC stamp?
:)
Oh and I've been away quite a while (much school work and now a holiday job) and I would just like to ask if there is a way to already begin creating ages or if we have to wait a bit?

Cyan will not be making any new content for a while. MO:RE will be opening with minimal support and no intention of profit. Hence the low proposed subscription fee of $25 for 6 months.

Although Cyan did not support fan created works in the past, their announcement of the intent to release their "plugins" will allow the Guild of Writers (GoW) to perfect the shareware software tools they have now. Those tools have already been used to create more than a dozen ages which are playable with Uru:CC or Uru:ABM+PoTS. The Uru Library Manager (ULM) was developed as a convenient way to download these creations and install extra books in your Relto bookshelves.

Links for downloading ULM and the various shareware tools can be found in the GoW Wiki pages. Those pages also contain tutorials and examples for creating your own ages.

David Tierce


Ok, I'm a little late on the scene... but... "shareware" :shock: .

PyPRP is GPL, not sure about the other tools.

I dunno, maybe shareware is a broad term but I think people usually mean the "shareware license" when they say shareware.

I shouldn't care but shareware makes it sound like we're selling another version on the side and packing it full of viruses. :P

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:24 pm 
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zander_nyrond: I now understand what you meant,and I agree with you.

However,the fact still remains: it will be easier to get completely new players,than the retired players.But first,as you said,we will have to give good impression on the retired players.

So,maybe we should wait for 2 or 3 fan made ages to be available,and than start advertising MOUL to other people who do not know any game,and note the new features as well,so if the retired MOUL players will read those new features,they will say "hey,it's a different game.maybe it is worth checking in,maybe it's not that good idea to say to others it's rubbish".So,you get new players,and maybe even some retired MOUL/CC/ABM players.Though I still think the order of new players to ABM/CC retireds to MOUL retireds should still go on.

However,another big problem is this: how much time will it take to make a new,high quality age? high quality means no sharpy models,not a lot of smeared textures- and non on big things like ground,water (i've seen no fan age,except maybe eh'ko,which had the water looks like cyan worlds')- and no bugs,or at least not a lot.I don't know if it's possible,but maybe until MOUL restoration experiment goes up,the GOW can train them selfs how to make those "high quality" ages (discription above) in like,2-3 weeks? as I said before,maybe with the help of the most skilled writers,such as andy and du'ex? it will be really hard work,and I'm really not sure if possible,but I think that in some way it must be that way.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:02 pm 
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Lontahv wrote:
Ok, I'm a little late on the scene... but... "shareware" :shock: .
PyPRP is GPL, not sure about the other tools.
I dunno, maybe shareware is a broad term but I think people usually mean the "shareware license" when they say shareware.
I shouldn't care but shareware makes it sound like we're selling another version on the side and packing it full of viruses. :P

Ok. I must have used the wrong term. I only meant that the tools commonly used by the GoW are free to use. They don't cost anything. Is "freeware" a more suitable term??

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:11 pm 
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Yes, "freeware" is more natural. The tools we have now can also be called "open-source".

(When Cyan releases 3DSMax plugins, they will likely be freeware but *not* open-source.)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:16 am 
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belford wrote:
When Cyan releases 3DSMax plugins, they will likely be freeware but *not* open-source.


They'll have to be open-source to re-engineer them to work with Blender or any other 3D modelling app. I don't suppose there's many of us can shell out $3,500 for 3DS Max just to use the plug-ins.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:15 pm 
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I don't expect the 3DS source code to be "re-engineered" to work with Blender. That doesn't make sense. What will happen is that people will look at it, learn what's going on, and then apply their new knowledge to improving the existing Blender tools (which are open-source).

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:20 pm 
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Although Cyan, who use 3DS Max for making the ages, didn't have to worry about design quality, as it was done by a team, I'm sure the same thing can still be acheieved in time in Blender. I have 3DSMax 9 and it's... complicated, to say the least. Blender ismuch more user-friendly so even though it has a simpler (yet still difficult) interface (which im still grasping), this leads me also to believe that with modification to the existing PyPRP we could achieve Cyan standard quality - take a look at D'eux's ages if you want to see an example of that. ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:24 pm 
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I agree that using a team approach the community can certainly reach high levels of quality and be able to add wonderful new assets to the game. It is exciting to contemplate and already many are working hard improving or gaining the needed skill sets. Very exciting times. Anyone and everyone can help.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:01 pm 
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Inferiority Complex wrote:
belford wrote:
When Cyan releases 3DSMax plugins, they will likely be freeware but *not* open-source.
They'll have to be open-source to re-engineer them to work with Blender or any other 3D modelling app. I don't suppose there's many of us can shell out $3,500 for 3DS Max just to use the plug-ins.
Though I don't have a list of names, I recall several people posting here saying that they do own copies of 3DSMax. I know a few more who are in fact considering purchasing Max when the plug-in is released. I own an old copy of Max 4 (4.5), but never upgraded to the many new versions because of cost. And as Mystdee has suggested, the free Gmax version of 3DStudio may be suitable for agebuilding purposes. I have downloaded it but not vetted it yet, and we have no idea whether the plug-in would work with it, or could be made to do so - but if so, that would sure overcome a lot of hurdles for agebuilders right there.

TomahnaGuy wrote:
...Cyan, who use 3DS Max for making the ages, didn't have to worry about design quality, as it was done by a team
...TG, I'm not sure I understand this at all - you can't possibly mean this the way it sounds - would you clarify your intent please?

TomahnaGuy wrote:
I have 3DSMax 9 and it's... complicated, to say the least. Blender ismuch more user-friendly so even though it has a simpler (yet still difficult) interface (which im still grasping)
Others have posted here that they find the exact opposit to be true, that they find Blender's GUI to be highly counterintuitive and Max's to be comparatively comprehensible. But I'm sure it's a matter of taste....

TomahnaGuy wrote:
...this leads me also to believe that with modification to the existing PyPRP we could achieve Cyan standard quality - take a look at D'eux's ages if you want to see an example of that.
D'eux's ages were modelled and at least partly textured in LightWave, then exported using a free tool he was thrilled to locate (see last two posts on this page to confirm). I'm not saying that this proves that such results are impossible in Blender, nor that D'eux didn't utilize Blender to bring his work into URU: he obviously had to do so, since those are the only tools available at the time. Just pointing out that many of us are more familiar with certain toolsets, that learning and becoming fluent in multiple complex GUIs simultaneously is really tough for many of us, therefore having the conversion tools to go from various softwares' output formats (or a common output format such as .obj or Collada) to .prp (or to Max and then .prp) would be a huge advantage.

I know Cyan's employee-time is tight these days, nevertheless I can dream: that when the plug-in is released, Cyan can offer some documentation with it, and/or some bits of regularly-scheduled online time with employees most familiar with the plug-in and its use: online seminars, a section of these forums, and so on!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:24 am 
That would be nice. 3Ds Max is completely beyond my range, so if I want to work in Vue I'll probably end up having to make my own plugin, whatever that involves... *has vivid prophetic dream of head going splodey*


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:17 pm 
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Emor D'ni Lap wrote:
TomahnaGuy wrote:
...Cyan, who use 3DS Max for making the ages, didn't have to worry about design quality, as it was done by a team
...TG, I'm not sure I understand this at all - you can't possibly mean this the way it sounds - would you clarify your intent please?


I meant because they were a team, they could all share the worry of design quality. As we make ages on our own, we do have to worry about design quality in our ages... unless it's a team build.

Emor D'ni Lap wrote:
TomahnaGuy wrote:
I have 3DSMax 9 and it's... complicated, to say the least. Blender ismuch more user-friendly so even though it has a simpler (yet still difficult) interface (which im still grasping)
Others have posted here that they find the exact opposit to be true, that they find Blender's GUI to be highly counterintuitive and Max's to be comparatively comprehensible. But I'm sure it's a matter of taste....


Indeed, I just find Blender easier to understand - probably because I have a manual and Jennifer's classroom significantly helps! ;)

Emor D'ni Lap wrote:
TomahnaGuy wrote:
...this leads me also to believe that with modification to the existing PyPRP we could achieve Cyan standard quality - take a look at D'eux's ages if you want to see an example of that.
D'eux's ages were modelled and at least partly textured in LightWave, then exported using a free tool he was thrilled to locate (see last two posts on this page to confirm). I'm not saying that this proves that such results are impossible in Blender, nor that D'eux didn't utilize Blender to bring his work into URU: he obviously had to do so, since those are the only tools available at the time. Just pointing out that many of us are more familiar with certain toolsets, that learning and becoming fluent in multiple complex GUIs simultaneously is really tough for many of us, therefore having the conversion tools to go from various softwares' output formats (or a common output format such as .obj or Collada) to .prp (or to Max and then .prp) would be a huge advantage.


Perhaps so. Yes, lightwave is something that isn't available to everyone but I still think that using his method we could also achieve a similar standard of quality. I'm not saying we should learn to use multiple software formats and GUI forms but just what you are saying - that we should try and utlise the plugin to allow us to change our .obj's and .prp's easily.

TG

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:36 am 
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I use Lightwave too. It's a great 3d app and my personally planned pipeline will include Lightwave and 3ds Max and Photoshop CS3.

It is worth noting that the current version of Lightwave can export models complete with UV-mapped textures, to a form readable by Blender or 3ds max without any third-party plugins.

So I'll be doing some of my work in LW and enhancing/completing it in 3ds max. This seems ideal as I will have the best plugins (Cyan's own IDE) combined with software comparable to Cyan's.

I'll be doing mostly personal ages at first, but may contribute to group projects sometimes too.

I'll try to match or at least approach Cyan quality but I know that won't be easy to do and will take a huge amount of work!

I am not as talented an artist as they are :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:40 am 
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They were planning to give us the plugin source, so we have that to look forward to. And the Blender plugin is nicely screaming along apparently. I wonder if the Cyan plugin can fully import made ages, and acurately export. That's a feature I'd be interested in... a little of this, a little of that... well, once I can actually BUILD in them that is.

Cyan's plugins and tools will likely be very much like any company's internal tools. Command line driven at one part, and a little cryptic at others. Exporter options won't have specific labels, only ones you'd need to know what they do to know what they do. And it won't be user friendly. Basically, designed by programmers in the team to work without need for a pretty interface, and then sliced and hacked up as they go to add features and updates with no worry about the interface aside from making it usable (easy is for those who haven't used it before, no time when you're on a horridly tight schedule)


Just a hunch. It won't matter a whole lot in the end, I doubt we'll be getting full documentation, so we'll have to have a period of learning just how to make the things work in the modelled ages for export (even the PyPRP experts will, as I'll be surprised if the designs between a reverse engineered plugin and official one are very much the same)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:32 am 
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Gondar wrote:
They were planning to give us the plugin source, so we have that to look forward to. And the Blender plugin is nicely screaming along apparently. I wonder if the Cyan plugin can fully import made ages, and acurately export. That's a feature I'd be interested in... a little of this, a little of that... well, once I can actually BUILD in them that is.

Cyan's plugins and tools will likely be very much like any company's internal tools. Command line driven at one part, and a little cryptic at others. Exporter options won't have specific labels, only ones you'd need to know what they do to know what they do. And it won't be user friendly. Basically, designed by programmers in the team to work without need for a pretty interface, and then sliced and hacked up as they go to add features and updates with no worry about the interface aside from making it usable (easy is for those who haven't used it before, no time when you're on a horridly tight schedule)


Just a hunch. It won't matter a whole lot in the end, I doubt we'll be getting full documentation, so we'll have to have a period of learning just how to make the things work in the modelled ages for export (even the PyPRP experts will, as I'll be surprised if the designs between a reverse engineered plugin and official one are very much the same)


Cyan plugin has no import support. All of the data is stored in the 3DS Max file, if something needs changing, they re-export the file.

Cyan plugins are built directly into 3DS Max, the entire build process in through 3DS Max. Rather than using scripting for wavesets and clickable, they have visual panels with buttons to set each parameter of every object.

A chatlog with Brice Tebbs from CyanChat details the tools and how 3DS Max is used as the entire build process... http://guildofwriters.com/Brice2.html


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