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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:31 pm 
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There is no effective way to have a live event happen that EVERYONE can experience. You have to leave people who come on after the event, and leave out people who are doing other stuff during it. Why? Well, what's the alternative?

Ok, think about it. We'll just have playback, right? Some sort of recording.

That's nice, but it's not the same. You're watching the event, and you can already get chatlogs and pictures which cover that, and you're not getting the lag that you get with a big event in cavern.
Ok, so we'll repeat it, right?


Heh. Wait, so now suddenly we instanced not just ages, but events? Congratulations, MORE is a MMO! Complete with that feeling that you don';t make a difference, because it'll all happen again with another group of people! And to do that with Cyan's staff, forget that whole silly thing with live actors. Pre-record chat, and have a script play it out. Remove the interaction, have them like Yeesha wandering about and giving a speech before going poof. That'll get it to everyone!


:roll:

It's impossible with Uru's core online design to get the story to everyone. All you can do are stopgaps like episodes, which remove some of the problems. And now Cyan has even less staff to do it, so expect no real earth-shattering events like the bahro war, and don't expect them to be there consistently. There's no way for them to do it.


The only way to ensure everyone gets story, is to accept that you can't get the story to everyone, but you can get a story. So that means.. multiple things going on at once. And not just Cyan. They don't have resources. That means, yes, it's up to us this time to have things going on and running. And I'm sure people have ideas. We need them when MORE comes. User made ages AND events. It's the only way we could manage after all.


And that, yes, means we HAVE to be allowed to make the story big and happen. Sure we have RAWA's guidelines, but we have to work within them and around them as we can. We need also to have guidelines on the DRC for touchable etc. As I said, Cyan can't do the stories and can't check everything, the only way to have interesting things happen spread out (and remember Cyan likely can't even manage D'mala-like that well right now) is for us to be able to do them.

And remember as well.. we get to make ages. Now WE can tie story to ages like Cyan did.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:05 pm 
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The stranger wrote:
Myst have always been about living actors (please don't start with "uru is not myst :roll: " ) and even though some more NPCs would be nice,I would like to see more live events as well.

But what you call "living actors" in the other MYST games are just what the NPCs in ABM are. Cyan wanted live actors in Uru so that they could respond like a proper human being (also, I suspect, because they didn't have much knowledge about AI), but that reason was shot down in practice, because what we ended up with was scripted events (plus the game not being able to handle the number of players it had to for it to work.

sarabonny wrote:
I think episodes were a mistake. I have to make a stand here: to those who wanted episodes so that they "wouldn't miss anything"

1. In this life, and it should be no different in a D'niverse, you will miss 99.9% (approx :P ) of all events, and most of those you don't, you get in the news (Oo, Oo, perhaps we need a Uru Times or Bahro Trumpeter newspaper... :shock: )

This argument needs to be shot down and buried once and for all. Really. Any game designer who sacrifices game play or content in favor of pretentiousness should be slapped.

In my own personal view, I think that Uru would essentially need to be rebooted/retooled if another commercial attempt should be made with it. The story has experienced too many rough rides and has to me lost the charm and mystery. The original journey was fine, in its own quirky way. I kinda liked it. As for The Path of the Shell, I don't really know. However, after EoA and MOUL, the story became clunky, unfocused.

The controls are only acceptable because we had to live with them. Also, jumping puzzles, "kicking" puzzles *shudder* I often feel that the game has a far too confused and pretentious design.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Carrot,I mean that in any myst game,there was this different thing.In the others,except myst v,were real actors.In here,we can't have real actors so acted storyline characters will do (and it's really good).

I don't like the reboot thing.Starting all over again will 1) make us more cunfused, 2) we will probably end up in the same point.You don't need whole reboot to make a game better.All you need is to go on with it,but doing things differently (better marketing,better content,better storyline).It will take time,but it's better than a reboot,in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:29 pm 
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As for kicking puzzles. Are there any kicking puzzles that are not essetially multiplayer puzzles with a solo player add on?

(Yes, this is a question)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:53 pm 
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The stranger wrote:
Carrot,I mean that in any myst game,there was this different thing.In the others,except myst v,were real actors.In here,we can't have real actors so acted storyline characters will do (and it's really good).


Quote:
I don't like the reboot thing.Starting all over again will 1) make us more cunfused

Well, I'm talking about an ideal situation here where Cyan would be able to overhaul most of the game. Controls, GUI, story, everything. It's not realistic, but I believe it would have to be done if this game were to go commercial again. Or start over completely, but that's not even a remotely sane proposition, even if Cyan had bags full of gold and diamonds.

How the original story of Uru has been told through the years is a big bad mess. It has been told in ABM, then bits and pieces through a desperate measure in PotS, then some of it in a MYST game, then in a second try in MOUL. It's a disjointed piece of story. It confuses me which parts of it that was planned from the start and which parts that were changed for other formats and/or MOUL.

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2) we will probably end up in the same point.You don't need whole reboot to make a game better.All you need is to go on with it,but doing things differently (better marketing,better content,better storyline).It will take time,but it's better than a reboot,in my opinion.

In short, I think the story has been dragged on for too long. Much of what made it interesting to me in the first place (mystery!) is gone. Also, I don't like the EPIC style the bahro war has taken, complete with all bahro superpowers, but that's just me :P

edit:
Rudolfson wrote:
As for kicking puzzles. Are there any kicking puzzles that are not essetially multiplayer puzzles with a solo player add on?

(Yes, this is a question)

Gira. Oh Lord, Gira D:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:11 pm 
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In short, I think the story has been dragged on for too long. Much of what made it interesting to me in the first place (mystery!) is gone. Also, I don't like the EPIC style the bahro war has taken, complete with all bahro superpowers, but that's just me


I still don't think we need a reboot.Just getting the "mystery" once again.May be hard,but it can work.

I don't like the epic bahro war too,I think that there should be war,just not in the way it was told :wink: .

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:30 pm 
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Carrot wrote:
The stranger wrote:
Carrot,I mean that in any myst game,there was this different thing.In the others,except myst v,were real actors.In here,we can't have real actors so acted storyline characters will do (and it's really good).


Quote:
I don't like the reboot thing.Starting all over again will 1) make us more cunfused

Well, I'm talking about an ideal situation here where Cyan would be able to overhaul most of the game. Controls, GUI, story, everything. It's not realistic, but I believe it would have to be done if this game were to go commercial again. Or start over completely, but that's not even a remotely sane proposition, even if Cyan had bags full of gold and diamonds.

How the original story of Uru has been told through the years is a big bad mess. It has been told in ABM, then bits and pieces through a desperate measure in PotS, then some of it in a MYST game, then in a second try in MOUL. It's a disjointed piece of story. It confuses me which parts of it that was planned from the start and which parts that were changed for other formats and/or MOUL.

Quote:
2) we will probably end up in the same point.You don't need whole reboot to make a game better.All you need is to go on with it,but doing things differently (better marketing,better content,better storyline).It will take time,but it's better than a reboot,in my opinion.

In short, I think the story has been dragged on for too long. Much of what made it interesting to me in the first place (mystery!) is gone. Also, I don't like the EPIC style the bahro war has taken, complete with all bahro superpowers, but that's just me :P

edit:
Rudolfson wrote:
As for kicking puzzles. Are there any kicking puzzles that are not essetially multiplayer puzzles with a solo player add on?

(Yes, this is a question)

Gira. Oh Lord, Gira D:


Actually I think the 'things' in Gira were meant to be passed to another player over the 'thing' originally instead of using the 'things'. (Still no spoiler tags and I can't exactly move it. ;))

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:00 pm 
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Carrot wrote:

sarabonny wrote:
I think episodes were a mistake. I have to make a stand here: to those who wanted episodes so that they "wouldn't miss anything"

1. In this life, and it should be no different in a D'niverse, you will miss 99.9% (approx :P ) of all events, and most of those you don't, you get in the news (Oo, Oo, perhaps we need a Uru Times or Bahro Trumpeter newspaper... :shock: )


This argument needs to be shot down and buried once and for all. Really. Any game designer who sacrifices game play or content in favor of pretentiousness should be slapped.


No it doesn't - its a valid argument.
Are you suggesting that if someone joins MORE in two years time (I hope its still around 8) then) then, say, the last appearance of Yeesha should stil be experiencable (not as a recording, I means as an actual event)? Or do you draw the line somewhere? If so what period would you give to the duration of the event?

Having more and more content is all well and good as long as you don't let the system get bogged down in 'bloatent' (sorry, by that I mean like 'bloatware' it's 'bloat-content' or 'bloatent' :wink: )

Remember how Windws became really bloated and hobbled (and some people may say it still is) because of its insistence on making it backward compatible with 8086 processors? I'm willing to bet that MORE will end up in a similar state if all that is done is to pump more and more content into it and never getting rid of the 'backward-compatible' stuff like past events.

Just my humble opinion, not at all pretentious :D

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:39 am 
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sarabonny wrote:
No it doesn't - its a valid argument.

Your argument is that the game should be in a certain way only because real life is so (I haven't seen you take up any other benefit). By the same token, why haven't our avatars died of starvation yet? We have, after all, not eaten anything since arriving in Zandi's plot of land in New Mexico. Neither have we died or broken our legs after doing all those god awfully high jumps, or needed to sleep. Why is that? Because none of those features would add anything if they did that and only that.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that if someone joins MORE in two years time (I hope its still around 8) then) then, say, the last appearance of Yeesha should stil be experiencable (not as a recording, I means as an actual event)? Or do you draw the line somewhere? If so what period would you give to the duration of the event?

Well, Yeesha's appearance at the end of ABM is still there, same as always, and that event hardly fits with the current story, unless you make contrived theories about different kinds of "freedom". To answer your question, I think that story-central events that players can experience should be around a decent amount of time, possibly indefinably unless it gets too out of date or contradicts current events.

Quote:
Having more and more content is all well and good as long as you don't let the system get bogged down in 'bloatent' (sorry, by that I mean like 'bloatware' it's 'bloat-content' or 'bloatent' :wink: )

Remember how Windws became really bloated and hobbled (and some people may say it still is) because of its insistence on making it backward compatible with 8086 processors? I'm willing to bet that MORE will end up in a similar state if all that is done is to pump more and more content into it and never getting rid of the 'backward-compatible' stuff like past events.

I don't say "never remove anything ever", but you should have excellent reasons for taking content away, otherwise you shoot yourself in the foot.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:15 am 
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I think that Carrot made a really good point. It's not an explanation to say that something in the game is like "real life" and so it should stay. I think that Sarabonny has reasons why live events should stay in the game. Perhaps it has something to do with immersion - I don't know. But, saying it's like "real life" is not an answer - agree with Carrot. Uru is a game, a virtual world. The designers pick and chose what makes sense to put into the game, from a virtual world perspective. They speed up the time - what would take us months to do in "real life" - it takes a couple of hours, or even a couple of days - but that's better than a couple of months or a couple of years! I don't get sick, and I don't get hurt. I can jump high distances, something I can't do in real live. I don't have to eat or sleep. I could go on, but you get the idea. Uru is a virtual world, and the designers choose what goes in there - it's not an exact copy of the real world. If it was - we could not play it.

I dislike live events that carry story, content, and meaning. If you want to have a festival, that's fine - a number of the MMOs out there have them. I'm not happy with live events communicating story to a small number of people, and then the rest of us are supposed to be content with second hand stuff. There was so little to do in the game, as it was. Then there's the lagging, crowding, all that - so many issues we've talked about before.

So - as I've said before - that's a good thing about our new MORE. There is no more promising what you can't deliver. I know there is no new Cyan content, but it just seems so much better than before. If and when we get new Cyan content, I'm really, really hoping for new ages, story to be revealed in the ages, and no one-time plays revealing story.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:25 am 
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I dislike live events that carry story, content, and meaning. If you want to have a festival, that's fine - a number of the MMOs out there have them. I'm not happy with live events communicating story to a small number of people, and then the rest of us are supposed to be content with second hand stuff. There was so little to do in the game, as it was. Then there's the lagging, crowding, all that - so many issues we've talked about before.

So - as I've said before - that's a good thing about our new MORE. There is no more promising what you can't deliver. I know there is no new Cyan content, but it just seems so much better than before. If and when we get new Cyan content, I'm really, really hoping for new ages, story to be revealed in the ages, and no one-time plays revealing story.


mszv has got it right. One-time events should not move the plot in any way unless there's a recording or something similar that players can freely access. This not only benefits players who have missed out but also new players, because it's a pretty big turn-off to start playing a game in the middle of the story. That's like starting a book at the half-way point.

Unless they have recordings or online chatlogs, thent I don't believe MORE should have live events that influence the story (festivals and the like are OK). It should be told through more accessible methods like journals, but should still move the plot forward regularly.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:58 am 
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One-time events should not move the plot in any way unless there's a recording or something similar that players can freely access.
That was the plan. There was a discussion, incuding RAWA, about this on the DRC website.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:09 pm 
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There is a difference between the game being like real life and the story progressing like real life. Besides if you want to be picky the above examples can all be solved by the /me command

/me takes water bottle out of his bag and takes a sip
/me lies down and takes a nap
/me roasts bahro over open fire and chows down
/me jumps off of cliff and breaks legs only to have them instantly repaired by Yeesha magic >.>

Whilst some for events having a long lasting record (hologram for instances) would be handy, I don't expect it to always be the case, some things are going to be there and gone. Rand always said that they wanted the game to change over time you'd log in and things would be different, that would include things vanishing.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:19 pm 
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I think the recordings are a good compromise. I'm actually one of those people who dislikes everything scheduled and neatly packaged. It takes some of the realism and spontinaeity out of it if you always know exactly when and where things are going to happen.

I'd much rather things happen randomly, so that the telling and experience of it can spread naturally, through word of mouth and personal sharing.



WARNING: Unpopular Personal Opinion Follows




Chat logs suck. Especially raw, unedited, post-em-as-you-got-em chat logs. Where's the you-are-you in that? Where's the creativity, the attempt to report as if you were actually *there*, instead of sitting on a computer? At least make an effort to take the timestamps out, and organize the conversation! Even better, make it read like a conversation, not a transcript!

People have gotten lazy. They expect chat logs for everything, instead of real storytelling, real reporting. Raw chat logs are a cop-out.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:55 pm 
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The story emerges as we progress. Sometimes we are there, and part of it directly. sometimes we read about it in books in the game, in the Hall of Kings, on tables, in our own journey thru the ages..sometimes it is something that happens to other people and we hear about it later. And as for retooling the entire story or game as some suggest, i suggest you go find another game. We, many if not most of us like this one to stick around for years and to support it wholeheartedly.

The dialog continues, and the days pass and as the Cavern returns, I am sure that Cyan will give plenty of directoin and support to the story contiuing, and we will all have chances to be part of it. Patience will carry us thru. Save energy for the fun to come makes sense to me.

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