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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:56 pm 
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Eleri wrote:
People have gotten lazy. They expect chat logs for everything, instead of real storytelling, real reporting. Raw chat logs are a cop-out.


I'm concerned about your pejoritive use of the word "lazy". What gives? I respond better to explanations for a view I don't agree with someone doesn't call me lazy!. It's also counter productive for the success of Uru. Isn't it better to understand the mindset of the opposing view and respect it?

I play a game for what I experience. That's the goal of the developers, in my opinion - to make an experience that is personally good for all players. Communicating something via a journal is fine - things can happen in the past of the player, if it's part of the game story. But - the story has to be accessible to everyone, else, in my opinion, it's a game where a lucky few get to experience the good stuff, and most of us didn't. As for chat logs, and other imperfect ways of communicating what happened - what a wonderfully adaptive thing done by the player community.

On RAWA saying that the goal was to have videos that could be played by players who weren't there - that's good. If you really want live events, that's a way to get people to experience them, still second hand though. My question - if the recorded videos weren't doable, why did Cyan continue to have live events? I'm serious. If you had a small number of development resources, wouldn't it have been better to do story via the ages? Ah well - we can't get into the heads of former developers of Uru, can we?
.
The only way I think that your view would work, perhaps, is if there was so much going on, with regards to a live experience and story perspective - that you always got some of the "good stuff", whenever you logged on. Perhaps that concept was part of the game design - we would always personally experience something new, when we logged on. How Cyan thought they could do that, given the realities of a dispersed player community - I don't know.

I realize this is old news for some - our eternal debate about live events. But - what can you do? When Uru comes back, we will have something new to talk about.

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Last edited by mszv on Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:35 pm 
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mszv wrote:
Eleri wrote:
People have gotten lazy. They expect chat logs for everything, instead of real storytelling, real reporting. Raw chat logs are a cop-out.

I'm concerned about your pejoritive use of the word "lazy". What gives? I respond better to explanations for a view I don't agree with someone doesn't call me lazy!. It's also counter productive for the success of Uru. Isn't it better to understand the mindset of the opposing view and respect it?

Nice. :wink:

Are you taken this disparaging, derogatory, or belittling comment to the Austin GDC convention too?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:50 pm 
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Well, you know, it was probably just an unfortunate choice of words. I know I struggle,sometimes, with understanding views about Uru that are different from my own.

I think it helps to know where people are coming from - how they plan to play Uru. I posted a thread on that. I was thinking about this. I think how often you play affects what you want out of Uru, and how you want Uru to be structured. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:18 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
There is a difference between the game being like real life and the story progressing like real life. Besides if you want to be picky the above examples can all be solved by the /me command

Well, if we're being picky, I would say that there's a difference between story content and accessability and story progression. I don't care as much about the structure of the story as I do about its presentation. I have made this argument before, I know, but Rand and folks have always emphasized that the story is the heart of Uru. By adopting the format of presentation they did, they kept many players from one of the core parts of the game. This is unfortunate.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:42 am 
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WOW! Sounds to me like Edited chat logs would be "MORE" Real than actually being there?
With all the burps and complaints about why everyone can't get to the event because of Lagg.
It would appear to me chat logs alone could make this whole thing work properly!
No need for events or actors or crashing trying to get into a full age. It would save lots of time, money, and frustration to just post a clean canon shiny chat log as if it happened and be done with it?
Better yet, has anyone thought of just writing a MORE book? Then everyone could participate. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:22 am 
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D'Neile wrote:
Better yet, has anyone thought of just writing a MORE book? Then everyone could participate. :D

Brillant... :wink: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:19 pm 
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semplerfi wrote:
D'Neile wrote:
Better yet, has anyone thought of just writing a MORE book? Then everyone could participate. :D

Brillant... :wink: :lol:


Yay, A Boook....to link to MORE! :D

erm.....if such a book existed in MORE and you used it to link to MORE, wouldn't that create some kind of paradox? :shock:

Like disappearing....what's the term....in a puff of Logic 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:14 pm 
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Oh good. I was starting to worry that I'd gotten too soft and uncranky recently, no one was snarling at me or arguing with me. The universe has to maintain it's balance somehow!

Lazy was a harsh word. I was thinking harshly. Unmotivated? Disinterested? Over the course of MOUL, I saw times when people specifically eschewed (there's a word for yah!) being an active participant in the cavern, because 'there'll be a chat log'. I saw people not wanting to discuss events in cavern; when someone would ask "What happened?", the response would be "Go look at the chat log.". When reading about events in the cavern, rather than someone stretching their creative writing wings and making a journalistic report, or a first hand "You Are There at the battle of Cate and Sydney" narrative, chat logs got posted, complete with all the timestamps, emotes, out of order questions and conversation. And that was the standard people came to expect.

Chat logs, themselves, are worth having around as the reference material. They should be available for reading through. I maintain they shouldn't be the primary way of sharing events.

And yeah, ideally, every person who comes to cavern should have a way to experience every event. Darn hard to do that, and have a dynamic, changing world, though. There's only so much you can do with pre-canned NPCs before that sense of Uru happening in real time goes right out the window.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:25 pm 
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Eleri wrote:
Oh good. I was starting to worry that I'd gotten too soft and uncranky recently, no one was snarling at me or arguing with me.


No worries, this forum is not the place for that. All nice ppl here! :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:27 pm 
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Agreed - one can make an strong case that chat logs should not be the only way to share information on live events. But - the next part - your preferred playing style, and how everyone should follow it - that's the issue! Talking about live events in the cavern, after the fact - that is a particular playing style. People may not choose that playing style, even if you want them to. It's not bad or wrong or lazy, or uninvolved or uniformed or uninterested - it's just not your preferred playing style. Since we are so small (also Cyan doesn't want it) we don't have separate role playing servers. As far as I can tell - most players don't do strict roleplay. It's not their preferred playing style, nor does it appear to be a preferred playing style for most players in MMOs. A roleplayer might have to search around, while playing Uru, to find like minded players to ask about what happened, and to discuss the story.

On chat logs - they are very textual, hard to read, and they don't make use of what I like in a game - a multimedia experience. But, they are closer to being "there" than either "world of mouth", or a nicely written up article. It's like turning on the recorder, but only for text. If what you want is a video of the event, you might settle for a chat log. If people want to read a chat log, it's neither good nor bad, it's what people want to read.

We are such a small community. Because of that, I think that sometimes we fall into the trap of thinking that everyone should think about the game only one way and play it only one way. I know I do! You don't find this in the bigger games. I play Guild Wars. I'm interested in the story, but I don't expect everyone who plays Guild Wars (a huge number of people) to be interested in discussing the story. I suspect that even in Lord of the Rings Online not everyone cares about the world history and the story - and LOTRO is the most lore filled, story driven game it's possible to be!

And still we all soldier on.

--------------------------------------------

Hey - just thought of something. What would be great would be to have a way, in game, for like minded players to come together for their preferred playing style. This has been talked about before. It works out good for neighborhoods, but not so good for the city. We've talked about it before, but never came up with any good ideas. I think that would work out really swell, but I don't have a clue as to how to do it! Any ideas, anyone?

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Last edited by mszv on Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Eleri wrote:
When reading about events in the cavern, rather than someone stretching their creative writing wings and making a journalistic report, or a first hand "You Are There at the battle of Cate and Sydney" narrative

As a role model for us, how about sharing some links to your "creative writings", "journalistic reports" and "first hand narratives" on MO:UL events. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:13 pm 
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semplerfi wrote:
Eleri wrote:
When reading about events in the cavern, rather than someone stretching their creative writing wings and making a journalistic report, or a first hand "You Are There at the battle of Cate and Sydney" narrative

As a role model for us, how about sharing some links to your "creative writings", "journalistic reports" and "first hand narratives" on MO:UL events. :wink:


I wrote a few, let me see if I can dig those back up. If I can't find them, I'll improvise!

Give me a bit though, today is busybusy *does her best bumblebee impression*

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:51 pm 
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Cool, Thanks 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Thinking about mszv's thoughts on preferred play style. The cavern community spirit is a sort of game style that most of us gets drawn into. Look at St. Patrick's day parade. But once we get the userbase to really expand the gameplay-style-hoods may see a brighter future. That is the trick, don't you think. More people.
Anyway. URU with its Myst tradition invites you as you are. And relaxes the role-play. In LOTRO there is no surface world with day jobs. But in Uru-live there is. We are, in the game, a species of earth people that has let the D'ni city in to our lives, or to take over our lives. So strict role play in uru is as easy as pretending not to sit in front of the computer. And that happens to me all the time. Alone in some age and with people exploring or having fun.
Then there is a storyline. I missed the debated "episodes", nothing strange for me, they were just past events. And sometimes I get corrected on the what's what and who's who when I'm talking to somebody. That way gradually learning about Bahros, war, DRC etc. That others have lived or heard about.
So listening to you I realize that If events had occured while I was an explorer then Yes! It would have bugged me not to be able to "go and have a look". Story elements could be periodic. Once that story is over, the age is changed back (or whatever). But to have story elements appear as a one time visit by acted player characters does require something like a log. Thinking about it, Yes. A chat log can be like our way of interacting with the game. We can demand of our imagination that a chat log is a part of gameplay. An official DRC recording of a special event ? (when appropriate)

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 Post subject: Wutts in yer Wallet
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:49 am 
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I agree allot with the playing styles aspects. Not everyone plays the same, or for the same reasons. I know from experience it's been, get it as you can pretty much.

#1. try to catch the event as it happens.
"Hurry! Yeesha has been seen in K'eever. Everyone who's anybody is there!"....(looks at ticket, You are # 368 in the linking order)

#2. Read chat logs long after much crashing trying to get to the event.
Yeesha:Said
Marie: Said
Wutt Evah: (Deleted for asking Yeesha stupid question, "Wutts in yer Wallet?")
Zandi:said "Good one Wutt" :-P

#3. Ask someone who was at the event what happened.
"Who are you and why are you talking to me? There is a chat log on UO forum. Good Luck, and NO I'm not voting Republican!"

Sometimes IC can be very OOC.

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