It is currently Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:30 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 266 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:11 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 12:55 pm
Posts: 9852
Location: Luton, UK
I look forward to the next time this becomes an issue. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:29 am
Posts: 671
Thread's pretty much completely derailed now.. Is there any more to say on the original topic?

_________________
MOUL KI# 10281985
MOULa KI# 1492059

Fear is the mind-killer


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:27 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:15 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Mystesota
This has been a wonderful thread. Robyn is now working diligently on his upcoming film, the "The Immortal Agustus Gladstone" documentary. Check it out on his Tinselman site. He requested I keep track here so he can answer any questions that may come up in the future. How gracious he has been and so glad he wants to follow us.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:43 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 5:28 am
Posts: 2266
Sorry, was a bit of a thread derailer myself.

My take away is "to each their own". Even me, of the fervent anti-stranger contingent, can see that the stranger scenarios are deeply held and popular. So, to each, their own.

_________________
mszv, amarez in Uru, other online games, never use mszv anymore, would like to change it
Blog - http://www.amarez.com, Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/amareze


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:58 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Tigard, OR
This has been a fantastic discussion. Now, I'm going to toss out a few new thoughts to chew on.

What defines canon when a game has multiple endings? It's really an assumption on our part that the good ending is the right one. Any ending could have been the right ending, the real ending. Only at the release of Riven did the rescue of Atrus become canonical, because the story of Riven could not have happened unless the good ending for Myst was the right one. Similarly, only at the release of Exile did the rescue of Catherine from Riven become canonical.

Therefore, in each of these cases, those who argue that "only what was in the game defines canon" should admit that Riven retcons Myst, and Exile retcons Riven, because each defines something about the prior game that was previously undefined.

Other games do this too, and sometimes which ending is the "right" or "preferred" ending isn't as clear. Consider Blizzard's Warcraft series. In Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, there were two outcomes - either the Humans won, or the Orcs did. In Warcraft II, players learned that the Orc ending to the first game was the true ending.

Where I'm going with this... is to tell a story about "retconning" in another Blizzard game universe - that of Diablo.

At this weekend's BLIZZCON, a Blizzard participant in one of the Q&A sessions revealed that the identity of the "Dark Wanderer" - the protagonist of the original Diablo - will be further defined in Diablo III. This will be the 2nd revision to the character's identity.

In Diablo, you played one of three characters - a warrior, a rogue, or a sorcerer. No definition or backstory was given to your character... you were just a hero who journeyed deep into the labyrinth beneath the besieged town of Tristram to face off against the Lord of Terror. Blizzard created 3 distinct end scenes to Diablo, based on your choice of character.

In Diablo II, the sequel released in 2000, your antagonist is the Dark Wanderer, who is the original hero from Diablo who failed to resist the Lord of Terror's corruption. You play a new hero who follows the Wanderer. The story of Diablo II occurs in a universe where the Warrior defeated Diablo in the first game. Diablo II thereby defines which ending of Diablo was the true ending.

And now, with Diablo III, we have a situation that defines the Dark Warrior further - somewhat similar to how the protagonist of Myst and Riven has been cast into the actions of "The Stranger":
[spoiler]The Dark Wanderer will be revealed to have been one of King Leoric's sons.[/spoiler]
There's nothing in the original Diablo to indicate that the player character was this person. On the other hand, there wasn't anything to declare the character *wasn't* this person, either.

So, retcon, or not?

_________________
MOULa KI: 26838 | Prologue Videos | Visit rel.to to explore Myst, Uru, and D'ni communities!
Click here for social/game profiles


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:29 am
Posts: 671
Thats an interesting point Marten. If a retcon is written into the canon AS a retcon then is it truly retcon? The Myst universe and by extension Uru is set up in such a way that any retcon can immediately be explained. Having the previous stories set long before the events of Uru allow you to write them off as interpretations and see them any way you want or take them as absolute gospel and both still make sense within the confines of the universe. In fact, even the very rules that hold everything together are retconned in such a way that it still makes sense with the introduction of the bahro and Yeesha.. but without undermining the importance of the original rules in the first place.

_________________
MOUL KI# 10281985
MOULa KI# 1492059

Fear is the mind-killer


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:31 pm
Posts: 801
Location: Sweden
Marten
Apples and oranges!
Riven assumes a particular backstory, so does URU.
The Friend/Stranger controversy is not spelled out in the game of URU. You have to find it outside the game, and most importantly, you have to be looking for it. U can be U in URU and I can be ME in MYST* no problem :) That was the only information I wanted to convey.
The only reasonable approach is the one presented mszv. Have as much fun as possible.

*I can be ME in MYST meaning the one who reads it and not the writer. I just found it a nice and ambiguous to write so.

/cheers

_________________
--- I know what I like and I like what I know ---


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 4095
Sorry for the problem after trying to edit my previous post. This site's editor was acting up badly.
( I had to delete and relogin)

My very personnal point of view. :wink:

In Yeesha's second cleft speech:
Quote:
An ending has been written. You've done all that has been asked. You've traveled the full circle.


Well in my book if somebody tells me that I have traveled the full circle, I consider that I can be a traveler.

Note:
I tried to include a link for all Yeesha's speeches at MystLore but for unknown reason(s) this site will not accept my link.

If ever you want to read them all, Google search for "yeesha speeches". MystLore entry is at the top of first page.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:37 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 6:23 pm
Posts: 4589
Location: Dutch mountains
Yeesha's speeches at MystLore


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 4095
I will try to finish my previous post. :lol:

When we play Myst the first time, It is ok to consider ourself as a stranger but we slowly become friend with some members of Atrus family. It, then, becomes clear we are not strangers anymore. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:26 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:58 pm
Posts: 2023
Location: The Netherlands
What an interesting topic! Welcome to the forums, Robyn. It's nice to hear what your intentions for Myst and Riven were. I can imagine that it must be strange to hear about 'the Stranger' after all those years, like if the original meaning of your game was somehow altered. However, I don't think it changes the way one experiences Myst or Riven. Personally, I think it adds to the story rather than detracts from it. Allow me to elaborate on that.

Myst and Riven are such immersing games, that one cannot let it go after finishing the games. Robyn, you said that Riven was supposed to be the end of the series, and indeed the game concludes the Myst story in a very good way. But by the time one finishes Riven, one is so captivated by D'ni and the Art, that the ending of Riven doesn't satisfy ones desire for more. And so, questions about the story are being raised. RAWA has an excellent point when he says that the larger backstory was made, because people would naturally come with questions.

I discovered Myst and Riven some years ago. When I learnt that Myst and Riven were 'just' games, that didn't detract from my experience at all. On the contrary, it was an eye-opener! It was wonderful to know that Myst and Riven were just a small part of a whole universe, just the tip of an iceberg, because it meant there was so much more to it. And I could become part of that universe through Uru, together with many other players.

But, in the end, does this knowledge change the way I experience Myst or Riven? Am I conscious of the fact that I'm merely 'the Stranger' when I play the games? Of course not, because that's not how the games were designed. When I play Myst or Riven, I feel like I'm really there myself. That's just the nature of the game.

So to conclude, I think Robyn achieved what he had in mind for Myst. The larger backstory opened up many new possibility for the hungry fans, but the game experience of Myst has not been altered in my opinion.

PS: I have the Riven soundtrack with the booklet and I can confirm that there's indeed a page in D'ni that was supposedly found. The booklet treats the events of Riven as historical events. And yes, even Dr. Watson is mentioned: "In late October 2007, three pages, apparently torn out of one of Gehn's old journals, were discovered by D'ni historian Dr. Richard Watson during a routine expedition to D'ni."

_________________
URU blog | Archives of the Restoration


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:53 pm
Posts: 1451
Location: The Cleft of the Rock of Ages
veralun wrote:

Thanks for the link, Veralun!! Awesome read!

Do we know who actually wrote these masterpieces of speeches?

I must say that they are extremely well written: the poetry of the words! the double meaning of some fundamental ideas! (just to cite an example: "Return you must" = do I have to return the *Poles* or do *I* have to return myself? It all sums up the same but I find it is all so very awesome and almost impossible to translate correctly into other languages without losing any of the nuances).

And to stay on topic... I am THE Stranger... so beware of the power of YourFavoriteNumbSkull™ in re*whatever*ing the history/future/whatEver :D

_________________
Ethan the Bahro Boy - MO:ULagain KI# 4988
---Blessed are those who laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused---
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:52 pm
Posts: 179
Marten wrote:
What defines canon when a game has multiple endings?

The winning ending is the one that counts.
Marten wrote:
It's really an assumption on our part that the good ending is the right one.

Yes, but it's a reasonable one. If you don't think so, I don't see why you'd have to assume the game ends at all. Someone could've started Myst in 1993 and still be playing today. Obviously one wasn't meant to be that slow in playing the game.
Marten wrote:
Any ending could have been the right ending, the real ending.

Robyn conveniently composed two different pieces of music that can play during the credits. If you hear the Unfinale, you did something wrong. If you hear the proper Finale, you did it right. The difference between the two is impossible to miss. ;)
Marten wrote:
Only at the release of Riven did the rescue of Atrus become canonical, because the story of Riven could not have happened unless the good ending for Myst was the right one. Similarly, only at the release of Exile did the rescue of Catherine from Riven become canonical.

Therefore, in each of these cases, those who argue that "only what was in the game defines canon" should admit that Riven retcons Myst, and Exile retcons Riven, because each defines something about the prior game that was previously undefined.

The winning is in the game, and very much so - see above.
Marten wrote:
Other games do this too, and sometimes which ending is the "right" or "preferred" ending isn't as clear. Consider Blizzard's Warcraft series.

This is a textbook example of a straw man argument.
Marten wrote:
In Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, there were two outcomes - either the Humans won, or the Orcs did. In Warcraft II, players learned that the Orc ending to the first game was the true ending.

Oh, really? I had no idea, but it's been a long time... But Wikipedia says you're right, so you probably are.

I'll ignore the part about Diablo because of its irrelevance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:11 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Hanging around with mermaids. And still looking for the elusive Funky Bahro.
I have Myst V End of Ages Limited Edition which came with the PRIMA Official Game Guide.

[spoiler]Now, if you turn to page 133 - and maybe squint a bit, the lettering is light grey - it reads:

Quote:
"Atrus turned to me. His eyes shone brightly, brimming with tears, but behind them I saw a barely perceptible dullness. He looked at me and saw his anonymous friend of hundreds of years ago, the friend who had freed him from K'veer, who had assisted him in defeating Gehn and Saavedro, who had been there to rescue Yeesha from Sirrus.

"'Thank you, my old friend', he said, and I did not have the heart to correct him."
[italics mine]
[/spoiler]

In other words, there was more than one Stranger. The Stranger in Myst through Revelation is not the same person in End of Ages (now revealed to be Dr. Watson).

_________________
New to Uru? See this video.

KI numbers:
TOOO 24657
Magical Mystery TOOO 643784
Institution TOOO 816645
Karaoke TOOO 816776

~and featuring~

Murinna (the mermaid) 2484723
Mallina (the other mermaid) 3015052

Second Life: TOOO Fall


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:54 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:14 pm
Posts: 808
Is the PRIMA guide canon? I know pretty much for sure that the Riven one is (I have it somewhere, and I seem to recall it saying it was done in cooperation with Cyan), but was it the same for Myst V?

_________________
Lyrositor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 266 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: