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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:55 am 
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Why does the KI not show coordinates in all ages, as description says ?!

It should be angles, distances and height

from GZ !

or

from "Maintainers Point", whereever that is.

But coordinates are shown on Aegura ('though not in all places*), the Watchers Pub and Bevin only,
neither in Relto, other Pubs, nor in other ages?!
Even in Gahreesen, the KI-dispenser age the KI displays 0 0 0 :(

Could anyone explain this, or better, bring the KI to a better, i.e. correct function according to descriptions ;)))

This is no harsh critics, this is an explorers WISH! (would be very helpful for some kind of marker games, ...

*
[img=http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6201/nokicoord1.th.jpg]
[img=http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2091/nokicoord2.th.jpg]
[/img]

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:58 am 
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Coordinates are transmitted by the Great Zero, in D'ni, so of course you can't get coordinates in every Age. It's not really a form of GPS, in that it doesn't comprise the totality of the multiverse, but only the Cavern (AFAIK).

To know whether your GPS will work, be on the lookout for a blue line rotating throughout the Cavern. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:59 am 
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I'm not sure but I assume when you do the initial marker quests they only take place in D'ni and so I assume by doing those you get the information required to have accurate reading for the coordinates and that's probably why you only have them in D'ni because you never gathered the information required in other ages. (Might be totally wrong here but that's my assumption anyway).

Edit: And yea what Lyrositor said, the other ages don't have the Great Zero to emit a signal like a satellite would for GPS on earth.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Thank You for that quick answer.

Unfortunately I just do remember a document telling, that the KI does show coordinates based to a "maintainers point" or "maintaining point", but I cannot find this doc anymore. So may be it is my error in mind.
Excuse me for bothering you, 'cause explanations are logical ( as I expected, but not wished ;) )

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Actually I remember something like that too, was that the way it worked in URU(offline)?


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 Post subject: Maintainer markers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:46 pm 
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Shorah all,

Yes, my understanding has been that the Maintainer markers we can see in several of the Ages act as the GZ coordinates for that Age, presumably so the linking books can deliver us safely to the correct location in each Age (and not into the middle of a wall or to a mile-long free-fall).

Perhaps the DRC folks had advanced KIs that could function this way in the Ages (after all, they had other exclusive functions such as stealth mode). My guess would be that Laxman and company weren't able to get this function up and running correctly for the rest of us before they ran out of funding and had to disperse.

Bummer...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:31 am 
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Reading the above post(s), I had an idea,
We currently use KI v3 (afaik and unless I am mistaken)
If (big if) someone were to develop a better KI that did one or two things the current KI doesn't
(Yes I realise that means someone clever has to do the work)
We could all then have to return to the Hood Gahreesen and re-insert our KI into the machine to upgrade it
Then we'd all be using KI v4 :D

Now, I realise this idea may never ever happen, but to me it seems to fit what you'd actually have to do
To me it seems logical and might even fit with the canon (but I'm no expert on Myst / Uru canon)

Like I said it was just an idea (yes I know, shut up and go back to sleep)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:52 am 
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but then it wouldn't be a KI anymore, as KI is as close as the keyboard can get to the d'ni numeral for 3. Dunno what you'd call it if it was upgraded, there's no similar way of writing the d'ni numeral for 4 on the keyboard that I can think of. IFI maybe? but that's not exactly right.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Not really - it would simply be KI Mk 4.

[spoiler]Remember: the KI you get from the Gahreesen dispenser can be "upgraded" twice - once in the Great Zero (so you can create/play marker games) and once in Descent (for a light that lasts a whopping 30 seconds! :/ ).[/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:32 pm 
Ainia, it's my understanding (which in these matters is infallible) that linking books link to the absolute point at which they were written, relative to the planet, such that if you linked to a brand new Age, made a mark on the ground at the link-point, linked out, and then back in again, you would arive back exactly on the mark. The books aren't dependant on anything like Maintainer marks.


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 Post subject: Maintainer markers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Shorah DLT/Kath!

Yes, I believe the books are always supposed to link us to the exact same place. However, the Ages/planets are in constant motion as they orbit within their respective solar systems and rotate through their day/night cycles, so the books would need some sort of GZ marker in order to calculate where to land us.

For instance, if the books embedded some sort of absolute X-Y-Z coordinate when they were created, this coordinate would quickly become useless as the Age/planet continued its orbit/rotation (though in reality, any X-Y-Z coordinate has to have some sort of zero point or GZ from which to measure those coordinates).

So my guess is that the linking books first detect the signal sent from the Age Maintainer marker and then make their calculations for the landing coordinates in relation to that marker. Thus, we always arrive at the exact same location when linking to an Age.

Of course, it's always possible that Age linking works in a completely different way in not needing to know an exact geophysical location. However, in the larger scheme of things, this approach bears a closer resemblance to Yeesha magic, whereas the D'ni were much more technologically oriented in the way they did things (though their technology is quite different from our own). I'm more inclined to take my stated approach to understanding D'ni linking book technology, whereas all bets are off when it comes to understanding the Yeesha/Bahro linking technology.

I don't happen to know if there are better sources for data and theory about all this (haven't researched it myself), so brighter minds than mine may already have sorted this out... :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:23 pm 
Ahem. I said 'relative to the planet'. After all, the first time you link, there is no marker. And then the Maintainers have to link too.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:02 am 
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Shorah DLT/Kath,

I guess I'm not sure I understand how you think the linking books work then. Could you explain more?

And I'm not sure I follow the statement "the first time you link in, there is no marker"--do you mean the first time the D'ni/Age writer links in?

As I recall (don't ask me where I picked this up), one of the first tasks of the first linker to a new Age was to establish a location for a linking book, which would enable visitors to link back home. After all, the D'ni didn't have any Yeesha magic in the form of our Relto books. So I'm assuming that the very first link-in location to an Age was probably somewhat random and that the first linker had to find a viable location to house the return linking book.

It would be interesting to see a real descriptive book; I'm wondering if annotations were added after the first Age visit to ensure that the link-in location would be stable and predictable...

It's certainly conceivable to me that one of the functions of this initial linking book would be to establish a stable/known location (i.e. act as a signal). Perhaps once the Maintainers finished their assessment of the Age, one of their tasks was to establish a permanent GZ marker. After all, a linking book can be damaged or moved, whereas their markers are pretty well embedded and appear quite sturdy. The spare markers we see in Gahreesen look like they have about a two-foot base, which would provide a pretty immovable GZ point.

In other words, I see the Maintainer markers as being more than a "stamp of Age approval", but also as a piece of vital technology for the longer term.

Anyway, these are simply my thoughts about how this D'ni technology might really function. I'd be interested to know more about your own thoughts...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:15 am 
Ok, it goes like this.

Kormahn is written.
Book to D'ni written.
Link to new Age.
Find a spot for your Book to D'ni.
Book to Age written.
Link to D'ni.
Place Book to Age wherever.
Put Kormahn in storage.

That is the sequence of events for establishing a two-way bridge between D'ni and a new Age. When you link to the Age (3rd step), no-one has linked there before. There is nothing holding down the location of the link-in point. Nothing, that is, except the D'ni Writing mechanics.

A Kormahn links to a certain spot probably specified by the Writer. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but that idea is the most likely. It will always link to this point in the Age, unless the relevant passage in the Kormahn is changed. Thus, there is no actual need for any sort of marker to affect the books. For an example of this, turn to the Ages written after the Fall. No Guild of Maintainers anymore. Doubtful Gehn understood Maintainer technology, being a child still at the time of the Fall.
Linking books link to the point at which they are written. What ties them to that point is what is written in the book, most likely.

Therefore, Maintainer marks or GZ's aren't necessary for Books to work.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Shorah DLT/Kath,

From your description, I am gathering that we mostly agree about D'ni linking technology with the exception of exactly how it works. It appears that I am more interested in understanding the exact mechanics, which is what my thoughts are trying to express. And I don't see anything in your response that invalidates those thoughts just yet...

You make some interesting points about how linking must have worked after the Maintainers Guild disappeared. This could all be explained by my working theory that the return linking book acts as a signal as well (and it would require no understanding of that by the later writers such as Gehn).

Which brings me to another interesting point (in favor of my own working theories :wink:). Considering our understanding of exactly how the books work, they link us to an Age that is the closest fit to that written in the book. Even though there was a school of D'ni thought that believed they had created these Ages, the basic belief which was held by them (and which we appear to ascribe to in later times as explorers), is that we are simply linking to the best fit within the Tree of Possibilities.

Given that paradigm, it seems to me that the D'ni would need some means to "lock in" a connection to that particular Age. That is, no one could be sure if there were actually multiple Ages that were close matches. So with the changing of seasons or after a natural disaster, the original target Age might no longer be the closest match. Yet the history that we do have (particularly with Atrus and his Selenitic Age), we know that once the connection with an Age is established, it seems to remain stable.

So anyhoo, I'm simply interesting in understanding exactly how that works... the mechanics, the technology involved.

My own suspicion is that the Bahro and Yeesha forms of linking work in a much more nebulous or mysterious way. These linking forms seem to be able to dictate not only a specific location but a specific point in time. That is, with Bahro and Yeesha linking technology, we can cross the boundaries of time, visiting times both in the past and in the future. (Reminds me of how Kadish's fraud of Ahnonay was attempting to emulate that ability while Yeesha has shown us in several ways that she truly is capable of doing this.)

This is an interesting discussion!! :D

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