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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:22 pm 
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My vote = Option 3: create a usergroup. ...or are we not collecting votes here?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:05 am 
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My, my, I don't even remember the last time I visited the venerable forums.. But by my most scientific calculations that was exactly "a while ago". :shock:
I'll pitch in for Z's option #3 too. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:37 pm 
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Just in case my position wasn't clear in my previous posts, here's my formal vote for creating a User Group on the DRC site and keeping it open for our IC use.

And, NO, I wasn't "blaming" the new explorers for this. Just trying to make the point that if Cyan and the moderators had stuck to the rule of keeping this forum strictly OOC, then there would have been plenty of good IC material to keep the DRC site active and this wouldn't be an issue now. (And, then we would be thanking the new explorers for keeping it alive.)

If the DRC site re-opens for posting, I hope that many of the IC posters here will seriously consider posting there. IMO, those kinds of posts just feel more real on the DRC site and therefore the information in them seems to carry more weight - at least to me. Plus, they wouldn't fall off the page and get lost as fast there. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:41 pm 
I vote for the usergroup, and would certainly divert IC posting there.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:31 pm 
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AdamJohnso wrote:
Sadly, the DRC forum hasn't really been relevant since the first Uru Live... You know, back when there was a real story.


Just thought I'd provide an opposing perspective here--not to the first part, but the second part of the comment.

It is, IMHO, unfair and inaccurate to say there has been no real story since Prologue. Gametap MO:UL did, in fact, have a deeply engaging and enthralling story. The return to D'ni, the mysteries surrounding the Pod Ages (as they were originally known) and the predator there, the disappearance and death of Wheely Engberg, the revelation of the Bahro Civil War, the new involvement of the Bahro with explorers, and the arrival of Yeesha on the scene to heroically lead away the evil Bahro were all very significant parts of the continuing Myst storyline, and for many explorers they were the MOST significant part. When giving Wheely a tour of the Pods, or helping to search when she vanished, or discussing Sharper's planned expedition and desire to kill a Bahro, or even just listening to Phil Henderson's crazy semi-prophetic ramblings, I never felt that MO:UL had no story anymore. Quite the opposite, in fact--I felt I was intimately involved in a very intense unfolding saga that felt more real than any other game I had ever played.

We didn't participate so much on the DRC forums back then because we were so heavily involved in the IC aspects of the game itself that we just didn't feel the need. Even when there were no major events going on and we were creating our own little parts of the story, we were deeply immersed in the story of the cavern. One of my favorite memories of Gametap MO:UL, for example, was sitting in Negilahn with Gondar, Gadren, Serephina and DocOlanA and trying to piece together the mystery of Wheely's death less than an hour after it happened. Meanwhile, all over the cavern, chaos had erupted as explorers engaged in heated debate over whether she'd been killed by the Bahro and whether the Bahro could be trusted. Others were so emotionally involved in Wheely's storyline that they were crying when she died. Some even thought that a real person had died and quit the game out of anger when they discovered this was not the case--a sad misunderstanding, true, but still evidence of how real the story felt.

So, you can't tell me that there has been no story since the first Uru Live. To say that is to ignore the importance of the Second Great Uru, and the involvement and contributions of explorers like Vid, Thend, Gondar, Gadren, J.C. Barnes, Echo McKenzie, GreyWolf, Tweek, and myself.

The above is, of course, just my opinion, but as an explorer who participated very heavily in the Gametap iteration of Uru Live, I like to hope it has a little weight.

Shorah for now!

/me goes back into hibernation...

(EDIT: My apologies for going off on this tangent when people are trying to bring the discussion back to the original topic of the DRC forums. Please don't let me derail the conversation--read my thoughts if you're interested, have your opinion of them, and then move on to the topic at hand)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
And, NO, I wasn't "blaming" the new explorers for this. Just trying to make the point that if Cyan and the moderators had stuck to the rule of keeping this forum strictly OOC, then there would have been plenty of good IC material to keep the DRC site active and this wouldn't be an issue now. (And, then we would be thanking the new explorers for keeping it alive.)

My bad :oops: I took your quote and changed the context to address a slightly different issue, and that possibly led to misrepresentation. I apologise for that.

On the point you were making, Tai'lahr, I think it's nearly impossible to maintain a strictly OOC forum (or strictly IC, in the case of the DRC site), although OOC is probably easier than IC: In the IC case you need to be able to explain what's going on for anyone new to the site and the only way you can really do that is in an OOC manner. Here, where things were intended to be OOC you don't have the same problem but people will inevitably drop in IC references and posts/threads can easily become mixed IC/OOC with some legitimacy. So, while I'd agree that a stricter attitude on IC posting here might have helped keep the DRC forum active, the problem becomes one of where you draw the line. I don't know what originally spawned the creation of the Creativity section but that probably has blurred the line further :? . I also wonder if at least some people, if told that a thread wasn't suitable for these forums, would just decide not to post at all?

Personally, I'd like to see the DRC site forums in active use (i.e. Zardoz' #3), but the point Tai'lahr was raising on the OOC nature for MOUL forums would need to be cleared up, and I feel we'd need to see some initial (and continued) activity there, else it'll quickly return to being a place no-one wants to post because no-one ever goes there - a return to the circular argument of disuse.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:18 pm 
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To poke my head in... Carl raises a good point (Hi Carl! I was tempted to suggest voting the Carl Palmner option but I didn't). The forums never got much use during that point. In fact... they never got a lot of use otherwise too, did they? When people went to do IC stuff.. they just did IC stuff. They didn't post about it, unless they were posting something you couldn't directly do in-game, like say talking about how they made their own little living place here, or explored an age there, or what. The forums were more for the DRC and ResEngs to be part of any of these little things, which never really happened..

However, the concept is still there. A good question then is why would we have the forums. 99% of the people probably never realized they existed, they came after they were used, or never came across them, or what. Even during D'mala they weren't too commonly used. They're for in-character posts (well, and as a quiet forum for out of character ones, like pellet-point charts). If we put up an in-character section here, would it get used? Any more than the creativity section does for that sort of thing? And moreso, would it have anything over the existing Uru play, to have people use it? Beyond some sort of meeting board about in-character events in cavern that is.

Personally, I think not really. Notice in Carl's post how the memories he mentions are all in-cavern things. Events that happened. When he says how he remembers how we all went to his negilahn to talk, we came up with the two groups theory for bahro and their possible civil war then, hashing ideas out in the pod. Later I put some bits on the forums, but it was all come up with real-time, us talking back and forth. We didn't discuss anything on the forums ahead of time, he sent me an invite, and then it went from there. The best stuff did come up from the in-cavern spontaneous things like that.

Thus, the problem is that not even some IC forum would fix things. It was abandoned then, if we put it here it'd be relatively abandoned now. The main problem is we lack a story in the game to make those things happen. Cyan can't do it, they tried, twice (three times if you count D'mala's lead-up, but I consider it part of MOUL).. and they were all but killed by it. The explorers can't do it, we're disorganized, and as I've said if you give two explorers a piece of rope they'll try to take it in three different directions at once. We can organize, but we'd immediately form groups differing in belief and it'd just be the same thing in larger feuding groups. Besides, explorers lack the tools and permission for that sort of thing. Custom ages are an idea, but they only go so far, they're passive story the same way as Yeesha's journeys are, and they won't help solve the problem any more since it's not active engaging.

So back on to topic, I can't see any reason to bring the IC forums here. It would gain nothing. On the other hand, if we ever did somehow get the permission AND ability to create larger scale stories, possibly things somewhat pre-vetted by Cyan ahead of time but very possibly not (since that'd slow it to a crawl, just as much as custom age permissions if not more).. and could organize some sort of single group to do it like a Guild of Storytellers who are authorized to continue the Cyan plot (and thus have the rights to use DRC and Bahro and all).. maybe tied in to custom ages added.. then I can see the IC forums being used heavily.
But Cyan either hasn't thought much about this (doubtful), has decided not to let explorers touch ANYTHING of their story ever (very possible, it's their work after all), or has not made a decision so far and is foot-dragging a bit while they decide (very possible, it's a big topic, and letting go of something they spent decades upon, not just the engine but the mythos too is never an easy choice).. and the result is the slow death we've seen.


Sorry to get a bit off-topic and make such a long post. To sum up for those who hate reading my posts (also understandable!) I believe Uru needs an active story, even if it's periodic like the MOUL one was, and it needs to have an anchor into the mythos of some level, to continue stuff. And we'd need the permission and ability to do that. Unless Cyan can step up and start doing story again (which I don't know, I don't want to see them collapse for good)... well, Uru will die a slow quiet death and be forgotten.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:55 pm 
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Mac_Fife wrote:
I think it's nearly impossible to maintain a strictly OOC forum (or strictly IC, in the case of the DRC site), although OOC is probably easier than IC
They did try on the DRC site but it didn't work out. This is why the OOC forum was added later.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:30 pm 
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@Mac, okay, maybe I should have said "primarily" instead of "strictly," but I do think they should be separate as much as possible. There will always be exceptions. If you'll read farther down the link I provided, you'll see a post by ireenquench clarifying In-Cavern, Role-Play and Out-of-Character and when the lines are blurred. As she notes, "It’s all about perspective."

The issue is muddied further when people use the term "In-Character" as being interchangeable with "In-Cavern." IMO, it's not the same. In-Character is Roleplaying and Uru wasn't designed for that (although it's true that there have been a few community members who have done it quite well). Gondar mentioned the pellet graphs as being "out of character" - well, no, they're actually IC - "In-Cavern." JWPlatt is posting as himself, not a character, but as if reporting real and true information gleaned from an activity in the cavern. He's not discussing open source or coding there; he's reporting information from the cavern. That's IC. That's immersion.

I believe it's a very small percentage of explorers that want to roleplay as characters, but I think the majority of us do enjoy immersion. To be able to play and post as ourselves, but as if we were actually in the cavern is one of the reasons why the DRC forums are so important to many of us. Another reason is that as long as they’re there, the story continues officially - even if there aren’t any DRC posts and it’s just us making it. And, of course, there’s always the hope that the DRC will return and give us more story. Basically, in a nutshell, to lose the DRC forums is to lose hope for the future of Uru.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:42 pm 
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Before Gondar argues the point - because he likes to do that ( :P ) - Tai'lahr is absolutely correct. There is no rule that says one must use a pseudonym in the Cavern. I prefer to be myself. I am actually in the Cavern receiving these reports from Dr. Watson. It's all real. This began, as I wrote in my November 5, 2007 post, after I met with "Mr. Laxman who kindly invited me to the DRC Council hood for a one-on-one meeting" after a great deal of work in the Cavern to get the DRC's attention. That is exactly why I report the findings on that particular forum. The commute is fiery abyss between the Cavern and my day job, but it's a labor of love and The Descent is always exciting.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:22 am 
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Sorry, the point about pellet points was because I mis-remembered them as being posted in the out-of-character section on the DRC forums, NOT the in-character one. Hence I said that. I checked after you said.. yeah, I was wrong and I apologize. Though to be fair, the result of the pellet points in-depth is OOC, notably that it's all fed into a simulation which then may use threshold results for light levels. IC, pellets feed the algae somehow (somehow indeed.. it's all madness to try to decide how because instancing exists and then fiery abyss breaks loose), and make them glow.

Also, I don't know about an artificial in-character in-cavern distinction. I think of it very much the same.. in-character is simply to treat it as real. The cavern is a real place you visit, the bahro are actual other sapient creatures that exist, amazingly, we travel with books.. which we really don't know how to reproduce because the D'ni died out. Myst was real at some level, all of the series.. and while we have some way in theory to get there and back, or not (there is internet in the cavern after all according to what we were told) we can't just sit at a computer and play a game that simulates it.
It's a character, nonetheless.. even if it's not *you*-you, it's still a character with a slightly different worldview, one in which the game is real.

And that's how I treat every time I say it. Immersion indeed, I flip back and forth depending on the scenario. If we're discussing something about game mechanics or what, I'm quite fine to do that. But if we're talking about say motivations for things, I'm fine to be IC because you have to treat them as such unless you're ok with the answer always being "because the plot/writers said so".

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:42 pm 
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The old DRC Site and the forums during that time may be the most fun I ever had during the Uru story. Everyone working together and getting involved in the Preafter story was incredible... but going back a bit further, I remember when the site first opened and people were looking over the site and trying to understand what was going on, and the all important question: Is D'ni real?

Good times. It's a shame to lock the forums down, it's a pretty major part of our history... but very few explorers know they exist now, and even fewer post there. I'd like to suggest going with Option 3, but it seems like quite a bit of hassle for something that has sadly fallen into disuse.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:40 am 
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Well, this thread is letting people know about the DRC forums now and I believe many of them would like to begin posting there - especially after they've had their IC threads here interrupted by OOCness a few times.

A Perfect Example

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:04 am 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
Well, this thread is letting people know about the DRC forums now and I believe many of them would like to begin posting there - especially after they've had their IC threads here interrupted by OOCness a few times.

A Perfect Example

Again, sorry to be blunt, am I supposed to be shamed into embarrassment?
Edit : I forgot, I am not allowed to have an opinion on this forum ... my bad ... won't happen again.
Edit 2 : I'll just leave this here

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:30 am 
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Alien, of course you're allowed to post your opinion on these forums and it was quite understandable that you thought tommyap and DLordofTime were having an unreasonably serious argument over nothing more than a game because you have a reasonable expectation that everything posted on these forums is OOC because this is not the most appropriate place for IC discussions - that's what the DRC forums are for and that was my point. :)

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