It is currently Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:16 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 38
Location: uk
Hi all,

I am getting the impression from recent posts relating to skydiving particularly that the practise is frowned upon by the those who may consider themselves to be or represent the future of the game? Is this a point of view that others share?

There have been endless discussions about what the game was originally intended to be, which is fine and fare. But i feel that this is a virtual home from home though perhaps not quite like Second Life. In our actual world many adventurous types will climb on places and have fun on them though they often run foul of the police etc. A feel that this is what skydiving is and though difficult to design for by programmers such glitches will be found by nosey and inquisitive or just bored types etc.

THere are very many side issues to this but my point relates to how programmers pour over the minutiae of code and the efficency of routines etc and i do not believe those are necessarily the only kinds of people to place the future of the game with. Any design team as a range of skills from team leader sound / video aqcuisition, design concept, artwork etc. It seems to me that a lot of arguments over the past year have been between convergent thinking Type A personalities (in this case programmers) who are so affronted by those who underate their contributions to code routines that that they wage wars on those who they feel affronted by taking the games' future with them?

To recap...is the game for programmers or for players?

Yours very respectfully to everyone especially the programmers. Peace and love guys.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:18 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:14 pm
Posts: 808
schmood wrote:
I am getting the impression from recent posts relating to skydiving particularly that the practise is frowned upon by the those who may consider themselves to be or represent the future of the game?

Throughout all of the discussions, it has always been taken into account that skydiving represents an integral part of Uru for many. Never has it been frowned upon as such.

schmood wrote:
It seems to me that a lot of arguments over the past year have been between convergent thinking Type A personalities (in this case programmers) who are so affronted by those who underate their contributions to code routines that that they wage wars on those who they feel affronted by taking the games' future with them?

Again, reading those discussions, I have never felt that any "war" was being waged by the programmers; indeed, the tone of conversation has mostly been quite civil and respectful. Each side merely advocates a different point of view.

schmood wrote:
To recap...is the game for programmers or for players?

The game is for all to enjoy, albeit in different manners. One must consider, however, that bug-fixing, as a general rule, pleases the majority of players of a game, no matter what the game is. I don't know of anyone so far who hasn't been appreciative of the physics changes being tested on Minkata when it comes to solving the puzzles of the Age (for example, in the Eders or in Teledahn's slave cave). This makes the core gameplay more enjoyable, with the side-effect of reducing other glitches tied to these physics problems.

The power of open-source is that it can please everyone; if you are not satisfied with the changes being applied, you can get a modified client with all the new features, except those that affect the physics (because skydiving relies on a static version of Uru, it can be at odds with a dynamic, evolving version of the client; this is why a static client is more adapted to the practice).

_________________
Lyrositor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:33 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Beaverton, OR
I was reading this thread and realized I had heard the term "skydiving" previously but I don't know what it refers to as far as the game is concerned. Maybe I've been doing it and didn't know it! LOL! Can someone please enlighten me?

Thanks
Cal


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:53 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:14 pm
Posts: 808
@calroger: Skydiving refers to the practice of using glitches to derive enjoyment from Uru, by jumping to inaccessible areas, walking on collision walls, etc.. It is commonly practised by a number of players, often with the prefix "Skydiver " or "[email protected] " in their name, but anyone who enjoys glitching could be called a skydiver. ;)

@schmood: Also, I doubt any of the programmers who participated in the discussions can be described as possessing Type A personality, e.g. individuals who are "ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status conscious, can be sensitive, care for other people, are truthful, impatient, always try to help others, take on more than they can handle, want other people to get to the point, proactive, and obsessed with time management" (source: Wikipedia). Being a programmer myself advocating the value of these physics changes, I must strenuously disagree with you on this point. :(

_________________
Lyrositor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:38 pm
Posts: 1673
Quote:
To recap...is the game for programmers or for players?


The thing to keep in mind is: "The Programmers are Players too." This game holds an appeal to "both" sides, without players, the Programmers have no-one to show their efforts to, without programmers, the Players have no-one to fix the glitches that cause major problems!

I'm no programmer, and probably never will be, so I'm firmly in the Player "Category," but I am a historian of sorts. If you look at the game's IC-history, you'll see that the same sort of conflicts arose between the DRC and Explorers as they do between the "Programmers and Players." We're all in the same river, same boat even, but some of us just want to go in another direction than others.

Skydiving was never really frowned upon ever in URU's history. In fact, the name, I believe, emerged directly from some players who dressed up with "Parachute Backpacks" and jumped off of the poles in the Kadish Vault. Even as the tricks and trades evolved to the point that players could climb through the world-scape on invisible stairs, Cyan allowed it, and left a majority of the more popular skydiving glitches intact unless they had a story element that those glitches exposed. (The prime example being the City Tent Climb, which had to be patched at one point in MOUL's past due to a story event occurring on that rooftop, and Cyan didn't want anyone getting too close to see what was going on.)

So while Cyan never directly approved of the glitches during the Game Tap era (What respectable game creators would, really?), they allowed the ones that weren't game breaking to remain, with the IC comments of "It's your own fault if you forget your Relto book" or "What you do is your own business, not ours," as the story had evolved from a point that the DRC (And Cyan themselves, perhaps) realized that the Explorers couldn't be stopped from being their namesake.

The thing with skydiving currently is that the skydiving glitches are there due to a flawed implementation of the physics engine; and with people trying to fix those flaws, the glitches go away. But even so, that's where Open Source comes in! The Skydiver group has a specially made client that has the "Skydiving Physics" that really allows them to keep doing the things they've been doing and love to do. If people want to skydive, they're perfectly capable of asking a Skydiver, and learning the tricks of the trade. :)

I have no idea what a "Type A" personality is, but I don't see different personality types here in URU, be it on the forums, or in the game- Not really anyways. To me: it's all one group of people who are equally attracted to the same place. We all want this place to evolve and grow in the way that we all think is best, even if we have conflicting ideas as to what that best way is.

That's my 2 cents, whether or not they're worth anything to anyone is up to the person reading! :)

_________________
A-Xros Time and Space Stories | Entering Skyrim


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:36 am
Posts: 1303
Location: Back to the surface!
Lyrositor wrote:
@calroger: Skydiving refers to the practice of using glitches to derive enjoyment from Uru, by jumping to inaccessible areas, walking on collision walls, etc.. It is commonly practised by a number of players, often with the prefix "Skydiver " or "[email protected] " in their name, but anyone who enjoys glitching could be called a skydiver. ;)


@calroger: you are a skydiver :D There's no fixed or elite group in Skydiving. Some join the skydivers' neighborhoods to do skydiving, some join us just because they like hanging out with us, some just do skydiving without joining us.


Lyrositor wrote:
@schmood: Also, I doubt any of the programmers who participated in the discussions can be described as possessing Type A personality, e.g. individuals who are "ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status conscious, can be sensitive, care for other people, are truthful, impatient, always try to help others, take on more than they can handle, want other people to get to the point, proactive, and obsessed with time management" (source: Wikipedia). Being a programmer myself advocating the value of these physics changes, I must strenuously disagree with you on this point. :(


@schmood: The programmers work with the community and for the community because they are part of it. The programmers work with the skydivers and we do it too. There are even skydivers that are programmers. Almost all bots online are from skydivers. Mostly what we call "programmers" are the guys who work in the background that we hardly see. There's a strong persistant & wrong perception that these guys work alone in their ivory tower. I went toward them, I worked with them, the skydiving client, the marker editor client, and a lot of other things proceed from me or other skydivers going to knock on their doors asking for help.

There's a thing Lyrositor said

Lyrositor wrote:
The power of open-source is that it can please everyone; if you are not satisfied with the changes being applied, you can get a modified client with all the new features, except those that affect the physics (because skydiving relies on a static version of Uru, it can be at odds with a dynamic, evolving version of the client; this is why a static client is more adapted to the practice).


We will have the advantages of the update and future updates too except the programmers will freeze for skydivers what we need the most: a broken physics engine.

P.S.: an interesting note: The skydiving client BTW is already much more advanced than the normal client (build 1.912) because Lyrositor input some changes in late July in it that weren't ported on the normal client on the last update back in June.

_________________
Annabelle 47907 - New avatar


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:10 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 4250
Location: Digging around in the dusty archives, uncovering Uru history.
Lyrositor wrote:
@schmood: Also, I doubt any of the programmers who participated in the discussions can be described as possessing Type A personality, e.g. individuals who are "ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status conscious, can be sensitive, care for other people, are truthful, impatient, always try to help others, take on more than they can handle, want other people to get to the point, proactive, and obsessed with time management" (source: Wikipedia). Being a programmer myself advocating the value of these physics changes, I must strenuously disagree with you on this point. :(

Why? There's nothing wrong with having a Type A personality. They're the ones that get things done and I think many of our community programmers possess a lot of these traits, including yourself (ambitious, care for other people, are truthful, always try to help others, proactive). So, rather than deny it, defend it.

_________________
Explorers Memorial * In Memoriam


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:35 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:14 pm
Posts: 808
I don't consider myself a Type A personality. While I agree I have certain characteristics, I am not status conscious, for one thing, and I'm not really ambitious.

But I wasn't actually objecting to being classified as a type A (some of those properties are qualities after all for me), I was objecting to the generalization behind it.

_________________
Lyrositor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:28 pm 
Offline
Former MystOnline Moderator

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:05 pm
Posts: 4208
Location: 56°2'26", -3°20'28"
Calumon wrote:
So while Cyan never directly approved of the glitches during the Game Tap era (What respectable game creators would, really?), they allowed the ones that weren't game breaking to remain, with the IC comments of "It's your own fault if you forget your Relto book" or "What you do is your own business, not ours," as the story had evolved from a point that the DRC (And Cyan themselves, perhaps) realized that the Explorers couldn't be stopped from being their namesake.
Actually, during GameTap the use of "exploits" (like the so-called superjump) to get into places that were not officially accessible was expressly forbidden and could lead to termination of your account. The concern then was, I believe, a worry that accessing areas that were not yet open could result in data being written to the vault that might subsequently prove to be invalid and creating problems that would force a "vault wipe". The consequences of paying players losing their in-game history were considered too big to tolerate.

In MOULa it's different - there are no WIP areas in the game, so no risk of unexpected vault data.

_________________
Image Mac - MOULagain KI#00004826 00004289
In the interests of the environment, this post has been constructed entirely from recycled electrons.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:38 pm
Posts: 1673
Mac_Fife wrote:
Actually, during GameTap the use of "exploits" (like the so-called superjump) to get into places that were not officially accessible was expressly forbidden and could lead to termination of your account. The concern then was, I believe, a worry that accessing areas that were not yet open could result in data being written to the vault that might subsequently prove to be invalid and creating problems that would force a "vault wipe". The consequences of paying players losing their in-game history were considered too big to tolerate.

In MOULa it's different - there are no WIP areas in the game, so no risk of unexpected vault data.


That's why I said "Anything that wasn't game breaking," like some of the hood climb-able spots. ^_^; But then again, I was a kid then, my memory of the politics isn't that good, I guess... *shrug*

_________________
A-Xros Time and Space Stories | Entering Skyrim


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:36 am
Posts: 1303
Location: Back to the surface!
Mac_Fife wrote:
Calumon wrote:
So while Cyan never directly approved of the glitches during the Game Tap era (What respectable game creators would, really?), they allowed the ones that weren't game breaking to remain, with the IC comments of "It's your own fault if you forget your Relto book" or "What you do is your own business, not ours," as the story had evolved from a point that the DRC (And Cyan themselves, perhaps) realized that the Explorers couldn't be stopped from being their namesake.
Actually, during GameTap the use of "exploits" (like the so-called superjump) to get into places that were not officially accessible was expressly forbidden and could lead to termination of your account. The concern then was, I believe, a worry that accessing areas that were not yet open could result in data being written to the vault that might subsequently prove to be invalid and creating problems that would force a "vault wipe". The consequences of paying players losing their in-game history were considered too big to tolerate.

In MOULa it's different - there are no WIP areas in the game, so no risk of unexpected vault data.


I heard stories of nasty Res-Engs with long sharp teeth running after some poor defenseless skydivers and hunting them down. Henry used to told me that just before I quitted the game to go to bed. I feared the "Res-Engs" for a while until I saw Res-Eng Dogherra in the city. At first, I was on my guards, I told everyone: "Would he bit me?" with the mistake... Then I realized the reality had changed and M. Dogherra was a good guy afterall.

So children... don't ask Henry to tell you "Good Night Stories" before leaving to the Age of Dreams... :lol:

At least now I know what was going on in the days before my inception :)

(All of what I told is true with fairy (...feary I dunno :wink: ) dust spreaded all over to make it more enjoyable to read :lol: )

_________________
Annabelle 47907 - New avatar


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:38 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Tigard, OR
JWPlatt famously introduced the phrase "No manufactured divisions" under other circumstances, and yet it applies so well here.

The situation is far too complicated to categorize it as "programmers vs. players." And as Calumon aptly put it, "Programmers are players too."

Since the discussion really seems to be more about "programmers vs. skydivers", let's look for a moment at what is common to both groups, rather than what makes them different.

* Both programmers and skydivers are groups within the player base. Neither speak for all players.
* Both programmers and skydivers sometimes find ways to do things in the game that were not intended by the game's creators.
* Both programmers and skydivers are trying to find a way to entertain themselves in a game that hasn't changed in four years.
* Both programmers and skydivers can entertain others with the interesting things they've discovered.
* Both programmers and skydivers have caused others to worry that their actions could crash the game or corrupt the database.
* Both programmers and skydivers can disrupt the "IC" experience when performing in public, which matters to another group of players (that also does not speak for everyone).

When you look at it this way - it seems to me that there is quite a bit the two groups share. :)

It really boils down to good sportsmanship when we're all playing in the same sandbox, each with our own ways of playing. And because some of the things the programmers do have the ability to change how we all interact with the sandbox, they bear a heavy burden in trying to please everyone. I'm grateful to folks like Lyrositor for trying to keep everyone happy.

_________________
MOULa KI: 26838 | Prologue Videos | Visit rel.to to explore Myst, Uru, and D'ni communities!
Click here for social/game profiles


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:35 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:14 pm
Posts: 808
Marten wrote:
I'm grateful to folks like Lyrositor for trying to keep everyone happy.

And I'm grateful to folks like you for being understanding and appreciative. :)

_________________
Lyrositor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Sandbox
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:11 pm
Posts: 358
Location: Florida USA
Hmmm . . . Marten, I though the sand box analogy was pretty good, except for . . .

I think programmers tend to have more toys when they come to sand box to play. 8)
And I'm just really glad that programmers like Lyrositor, knows how to share! :D

Thanx for all the level headed and great help stuff you do man.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:33 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Beaverton, OR
After reading all of this, I guess I am a skydiver. However, I don't do it maliciously. I do it to see what's there. In most cases, I crash to Relto with no gain, no pain.

Here's another scenario to consider. What if the game environment gives one advanced capabilities with the KI. I am referring to commands like "anim ladderup" "float" "nofloat"."getyeeshapages" "getjourneys", etc. These are cheats and allow you to "go where no man has gone before!". I've been spending a lot of time on The Open Cave lately and the offline verstion freely gives these privileges as long as you are logged into your computer as administrator. In other words, these are administrator commands. I know I have run into these privileges somewhere else (maybe Gehn?).

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that in MOULa everything is mostly "by-the-book". All the puzzles have to be solved. All the Relto pages, Sparklies, Journeys must be collected in the conventional manner. After doing that a few times, your goals in the game change. The Cleft, Teledahn, Gahreesen, Ercana become rote exercises to quickly reach a goal. I can complete the Cleft with no cheats in ten minutes. I have seen reports that some people can do it much faster.

If I am seeking after something I've read about in one of the forums, I try to take quickest route to my goal. If this involves some shortcuts, I don't see a problem with that. I have never done anything malicious and never will. I have ridden the Zandoni machine in the dessert outside the fence but I have also crashed to Relto by going out to far!

What I am trying to say is that as long as it is done in the name of fun and adventure, skydiving is OK .

Cal


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: