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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:32 pm 
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TCB The Scar

There have been many such suggestions. I still think the Idea of a one time pay of $10.00 for your avatar is a good idea, if they are kicked they would have to pay $10.00 again to get back in if they try another name. If they do this everyday it will cost them $300.00 a month. I don’t think many if any will pay this amount and the griefer will be gone. Plus the money will help the game stay online and I don’t think there are to many people who don't pay $10.00 to play a game these days.

But there are as I said before many may ideas that have potential and maybe a combination of those ideas would be the answer. I don't think the answer to the griefers is the problem, the attitude of “there is nothing we can do” is the problem. And I think the attitude is going to be the harder of the two to overcome.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:15 pm 
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Hi Karkadann !

Always good to hear from you.

There are many many things that could be tried some may work some may not, maybe a combination of more then one will do the job. Maybe nothing will work though I doubt that. Money is always a deterrent and there are fines that can be posted against players as well, that would require a account in order to play the game.

TCB The Scar has posted a suggestion that she thinks would work.

But if you look at past posts you will find many ideas and at least one petition that was started in the past with ideas of how to fix the game.

You are correct, without players there is no reason to go on creating more games that no one will play.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:38 pm 
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I'll just make a couple of comments:

Annabelle is right about getting chatlogs. That and KI numbers, then send it all to Cyan. They will deal with griefers if they're given the evidence. Without it they can do nothing (or very little).

Res Eng cover doesn't guarantee freedom from griefing. In fact the only case of griefing that I've ever witnessed happened during the Gametap period when there was 24/7 Res Eng/Customer Support cover.

If there was and easy low cost option that would have a real effect then Cyan would have done it by now. All the suggestions (that I can recall) require effort (= cost) by someone even just for a trial, and think too many people greatly underestimate the scale of that effort. Assuming that the effort was even available. I'm not advocating "do nothing", just that what is done needs to be effective for it's cost.

The idea of charging for access and fines is seen to be a self-financing policy, but it isn't. Someone needs to manage the fee collection, activate/deactivate accounts, there needs to be a disputes procedure etc. I could go on and on. Before you know it there's management team of ten people to deal with issues created by one or two.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:44 pm 
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Creative Kingdoms

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Rocketdog,

(There have been a couple of posts while writing this).

I was hoping you would enumerate all the suggestions in your post. That would help more than reading about why you are disappointed. And the next time the issue comes up, we could quote your compilation to get people quickly up to speed. Can you enumerate the suggestions which you believe have merit? Personally, I believe the GameMaster - Cyan - would be necessary in any solution that works, but maybe you have some things in mind since you say this is not about Cyan.

The only thing in my view that would work is a nominal one-time fee that at least covers the transaction fees and administration overhead. $2.50? It would weed out the opportunists. But that involves Cyan's time and effort.

Another idea is to have the game remain free for private areas so that anyone can still play free, but charge as above to be able to enter public ages.

In MagiQuest Online (MQO), the game that Cyan developed and supported for us at Creative Kingdoms, we had an area that was free to play. There was new server and client development to support free trials and paid accounts and it worked well. That code exists, but not in the MOULa server or client, though it's possible they already had the hooks because of Uru Live or GameTap. I'm pretty sure the GameTap code was at least modified. Maybe it could be ported and the protocols implemented between the game and Cyan's website like we did for MQO and CK's website. Chogon could speak to that, but it's a long shot only because of how involved Cyan would need to be; they probably have no time for such a solution.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:31 pm 
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Nothing done, nothing gained.
Something lost? :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:23 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Another idea is to have the game remain free for private areas so that anyone can still play free, but charge as above to be able to enter public ages.
/thumbsup


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:31 pm 
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The best suggestion, to me, is what Annabelle suggested.
Make a habit to turn that chat log on and start recording.
If nothing is recorded that needs attention, delete it and
start again. Great idea.
Paying for the game to play is unfair to a lot of people because,
what would you charge? Who makes that decision?
Giving out fines for people who don't do exactly as others want them
to do or say is a little extreme. What will the fines be? Curse a little,
a little fine. Major cursing....large fines. Who will be the bookkeeper?
Well, to me, run a chat log and send it to Cyan.
I am not in the city that much, but I am planning on spending more
time, so I can see first hand who and what is going on.
The game has changed a lot over the years, and there will be problems.
Donate to Cyan. Put one of your avatars in the city and run that chat log.
Keep notes.
I truly believe that Cyan cares what happens in the city, but they can't be
there every minute of the day.
If these problems keep going on, Cyan could look over it or just push the "button"
and we would not have our beloved city.

-Nicoleleigh-

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:00 am 
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Mac_Fife

There is already a process for deactivating an account, at present that is a process that Cyan is paying for and shouldn't be. I sent in a ticket on Saturdays griefer and I hope that Cyan will take care of it.

I am very surprised by your statement that you have only run into one griefer. I must assume you have never spent much time in game. In the last 4-1/2 years of live I have had contact with dozens. And I stay out of the public areas as much as possible.

One of the things Cyan has set in stone is free access, I think this was and is a mistake, what good does it do to have free access if no one wants to come into the game or is pushed out by griefers.

I am not an accountant but Cyan already collects money used to run the servers. A second account that is administrative is not a hard thing to set up. If the startup money was put into one account and the server money in the other whenever cyan needs to remove a griefer the money that is in the starup account could be used to pay their employee who is now doing it on Cyans dime. The more times a person is kicked the more his money goes into the account and pays Cyans employee.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:06 am 
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@ rocketdog: No one that knows what is going on with Cyan and MOULa asks ‘WHY nothing has been done” because we know what’s being done and what Cyan has said they will and won’t do.

There are actually some things that get fixed. But, it is a matter of when Cyan has time, money, and someone available that can make the fixes. Uru is not a priority.

@ Karkadann: We know that the MOUL was never very secure. The database was hacked a number of times. Cyan finally came to terms with the problem people. Apparently there is a nuclear option. If there is hacking that causes Cyan to have to spend time repairing and strengthening the system then they’ll just shut it down.

They allow us to use it as is. As it is now there are a number of us that simply won’t go in cavern because there are no controls and only limited enforcement. The worst Cyan can do is wipe a user account and try to ban an IP address or MAC. All things that are not that painful.

Anything else requires time and effort on Cyan’s part. They are busy working on a paying project.
/Kark

Will new content bring it back to life? New content always brought players back… for a day or two. Once the new puzzles were solved and ages visited few hung around. The work/cost required to retain players is out of proportion to the benefit. It is the basic reason Uru was not a financial success. So, we have a great game that is too expensive to maintain.

What will happen to Uru? It will probably hobble along as it does now for some time. New players will see a fun game and play with it until they get harassed out of the game. Griefers are a toxic element that drives off the players that would eventually help form community.

Even Second Life that is earning several million per month has a problem with griefers and player harassment. The engineers often lament the time they waste having to armor the servers and program blocks for exploits. Security work is a top priority that delays improvements to their system. So, cyan on a shoestring budget has no chance.

Fan shards will likely follow the Until Uru path and siphon players off the Cyan system. Will that siphon away funds? May be. I can’t see Cyan ever putting a lot of money into Uru. Fans, in general, don’t and I doubt they ever will. Even when Uru was on GT we didn’t generate enough income to support its development. I haven’t seen anything change.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:16 am 
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Nalates, that ignores a lot of common sense about how fan content and its numbers works differently than a paid staff in a commercial effort.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:56 am 
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JWPlatt

Are you asking me for a list of the problems as I see them or a list of the different ideas that people have come up with in the past to resolve or try to resolve the problems with griefers? If you are talking about the latter I would need to do some research because I don't recall all of them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:58 am 
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I'm more of a solutions than problems kind of guy. I'm more interested in hearing the latter. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:57 am 
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Nalates

Do you really think I don't know URU live is not a Cyan priority? Do you know that Cyan does do some things related to the URU community even though it is not a priority?

There are things that could be done that would not take up any more of Cyan's time then they already put into the game and could pay for the work that they are now doing for free.

Your post is exactly what I was talking about when I started this post. That is not to say that you are wrong there is a good chance that Cyan will not help no mater what we come up with. The question is have we tried to put together a system that will work with as little time and effort required from Cyan as possible?

I don't want to go into specifics here that is not the intention of this post, it's about attitude. But I will give an example, I'm not saying this is the answer I'm saying this is an example or could be part of the answer, What if the cost of joining the game per avatar covered fully Cyan's cost of being kicked from the game for instance. You know Cyan already kicks people from the game so there is no increase in workload for Cyan. But there is a financial drain on the griefer. And as we all know money talks. Any money that remains can be added to the cost of the server. I know Cyan didn't want people to pay anything to play the game so it would be available to all. But the way it is it is not available to all, can we get Cyan to understand that, that is part of the question.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:27 am 
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rocketdog wrote:
I don't want to go into specifics here that is not the intention of this post, it's about attitude. But I will give an example, I'm not saying this is the answer I'm saying this is an example or could be part of the answer, What if the cost of joining the game per avatar covered fully Cyan's cost of being kicked from the game for instance. You know Cyan already kicks people from the game so there is no increase in workload for Cyan. But there is a financial drain on the griefer. And as we all know money talks. Any money that remains can be added to the cost of the server. I know Cyan didn't want people to pay anything to play the game so it would be available to all. But the way it is it is not available to all, can we get Cyan to understand that, that is part of the question.


rocketdog, a fundamental flaw with your plan of forcing griefers to pay if they engage in bad behavior, is that there is no guarantee Cyan can even implement a system like this, legally. We have no idea what kind of deal went down that allowed Cyan to retain the rights to Uru Live from GT. Its entirelly possible that the plan allowed Cyan to continue funding Uru and distribute it to us, on a donation based system only. And that any revenue that comes in from something other than a donation, IE, actual fees, requires Turner to also reap the benefits of that system. If thats the case, then even if Cyan were to charge a fee to griefers who abuse the system, they may have to send part of that fee to Turner as part of their deal because now they are actually charging people for use of the game. Even if its only a small portion of people.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:03 pm 
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ChloeRhodes

This is not my plan, I was afraid it would be taken wrong when I wrote it, here is what I said “I'm not saying this is the answer I'm saying this is an example or could be part of the answer.”

You yourself said “Its entirely possible that the plan allowed Cyan to continue funding Uru and distribute it to us, on a donation based system only.” But neither you or I know that to be the case, or do you? I in turn can say to you, it could be that cyan can charge anything they want. Besides that, I would have no problem with paying any royalty percentage that was do to Turner. You have done exactly what I am trying to get through to the community, you have debunked an idea without knowing the answer. Status quo. If I do nothing else here with this post I would hope that I can get other people and you to understand you will never get anywhere with that attitude. I would like to know how that attitude become such an ingrained part of URU live.

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