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 Post subject: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:13 am 
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I've been working on a page where I attempt to explain D'ni numbers and math.

Thing is, I'm the first to admit that math isn't even close to my best subject. If there is anyone here who is a math teacher or at least very knowledgeable about the subject, I'd appreciate if you could read it over and correct my terminology.

Another point is that I would like to know if there was ever any mention of how one turns the numbers 15 to 24 into adjectives. The only examples I have to work with are the names of the D'ni weekdays, which are called "first day", "second day", "third day", and so on. Using those, I was able to extrapolate the adjectives for 11 to 14, and for 25. I also was able to guess that the adjectives for 15 to 19 might use "ho" as the prefix, using the way "ee" was converted to "o" in the weekday names. However, that's purely a guess, with no evidence to back it up except for the way "ee" was treated in those names.

And then I got to 20 through 24, and my train of speculation got derailed because there is no example in the weekday names for how the letter "i" should be treated. I can't even make a guess about that, and I have never seen a D'ni word for "twentieth", "twenty-first", and so on.

So... Any guesses or (preferably) references?

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Last edited by larryf58 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:29 am 
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Quote:
I'm conducting an experiment in the next table. To keep the word sizes down, I'm using standard English pronunciation symbols for long and short vowel sounds. Macrons are used for long vowel sounds (such as ū for the long-u sound in tube), and breve symbols for short vowel sounds (such as ă for the short-a sound in cat). No symbol will be used for alternate vowel sounds, such as the sound of a in "father". Using this system, "vat" is pronounced "vaht", and sounds like the a in barn, not the ă in cat.

Probably because I’m not english-native, I find this a bit confusing; e.g. the ā in nāvū is not a long vowel, it’s an ay, and using ō suggests that the OTS spelling would be toor, which is not.
I think it’s an interesting idea (which I’d invite you to further discuss on the Linguists’ forum :wink: ), however the attested word for first is fahehts, which would suggest <number>+ehts.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:29 am 
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Being a linguistically-inclined English native, your system is also a bit confusing. I would strongly recommend using either OTS, or RTS (a description of which can be found on the GoL website, a link to which is in my sig), as these are relatively transparent to anglophones.

And I'd be happy to discuss this topic with you over on our forums.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:59 am 
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The macron and breve symbols are used in elementary school English lessons, or they used to be back in my day. So I'm curious as to why they'd be confusing to native English speakers. Did teachers stop using them at some point? Also, I rather like using them because it avoids throwing extra letters into the words that can cause confusion about how they are pronounced. Still, it's an experiment I only use on that one page of the site.

As an example of what I mean, fahehts can be read as fa-hehts instead of fah-ehts. If you read the section where I explain the symbols, by spelling it faĕts, it's easier to figure out how it's pronounced. That may just be for me, though. But it is closer to how the word is spelled in D'ni.

Yes, I understand that -ehts does make an adjective out of any given word. It's quite true that fahehts means first, and that any given number can be treated that way. I'll add that to the table. (Edit: and I have. The calendar system is now explained as a possible variation.)

That leaves the fact that the other system also exists, in which adjectives seem to be formed from numbers by a variant vowel sound. So far, I've only seen it used for calendar days, but there must be rules for the system.

Oh... I'm a little reluctant to join yet another forum, at least for now.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:42 pm 
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Here’s a comparison between transliterations: in NTS fahets becomes faec.
In the D’ni Notes I’ve used this example to illustrate the number structure, perhaps you could adapt it:
Code:
              né-ga-sen blo    hí-ga-fa mel        -         vat ra     né-ga-fa sí      tor
133,206,529 =   13 x 25^5   +   16 x 25^4    +  0 x 25^3 +  5 x 25^2  +   11 x 25      +  4

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:30 pm 
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Can't say that NTS makes any real sense to me. Why "c" would be used to represent "ts" for an Anglophone reader is a mystery I can't quite wrap my head around. I did consider using other diacritical marks, since many of them can be typed out pretty easily in HTML, and the macron and breve symbols have to be written in numeric codes. Thing is, just using them and using a straight transliteration of the consonant sounds seems to make for the easiest read. As said before, I use a version of OTS everywhere else on the site.

I think I see what you're doing in the example. You're separating out each element of the number into places with the factors below and the D'ni name of the product above, and the number after the caret is the place. Hmm. I'm not sure where on the page there might be a need to use something quite that elaborate. Did you have an idea of where you'd put it?

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:32 pm 
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Looks good overall, though I'm not sure we need yet another transliteration system. The idea that the special numeral forms in the names of months (not weekdays!) are adjectival is an interesting one.

It's possible that rigahtorrah should be rigahtorah on the analogy of mot-tee producing motee, since we don't see doubled consonants anywhere else in D'ni.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:40 pm 
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I've speculated that the forms we see in the month names are ordinals harking back to an ancient layer of D'ni vocab (possibly Ronay?), from a time when D'ni was fusional, instead of agglutinative as it is today.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:03 pm 
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Talashar wrote:
Looks good overall, though I'm not sure we need yet another transliteration system. The idea that the special numeral forms in the names of months (not weekdays!) are adjectival is an interesting one.


And I'm not proposing it as one. As I keep saying, I only use it to any great extent on that page, and then just for that one table. I mostly use OTS everywhere else. It's too cumbersome to create the vowel characters.

Quote:
It's possible that rigahtorrah should be rigahtorah on the analogy of mot-tee producing motee, since we don't see doubled consonants anywhere else in D'ni.


Ah! Shows what I get for not double-checking what "vailee" meant in the D'ni-English dictionary. I'll correct that when I get home. I spent days hunting for calendar related words, and must have fried my brain in the process. Heaven knows that's easy enough to do when trolling through the internet searching for references.

If there's a consensus on the double consonant, I'd appreciate knowing so I can correct the spelling on my page.

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b'tagamem mot seKem ril ge'Dan Kenen reKElen faex b'sEnem ge'Dan -- lårE leDA
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Last edited by larryf58 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:15 pm 
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And with my flub regarding vailee admitted... Has anyone ever seen or heard of names for the 29 yahrtee / days?

If they follow the same pattern as the months, then I'd expect them to be name something like yahfo, yahbro, yahsahn, yahtahr, and so on.

I realize that Cyan just wrote dates in the "month, number" format such as "Leebro 12", but one would think that they had spoken names for the days too.

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b'tagamem mot seKem ril ge'Dan Kenen reKElen faex b'sEnem ge'Dan -- lårE leDA
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Last edited by larryf58 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:19 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
Can't say that NTS makes any real sense to me. Why "c" would be used to represent "ts" for an Anglophone reader is a mystery I can't quite wrap my head around.
To an Anglophone I don’t know, but it’s likely borrowed from romanized slavic languages, as in “Kusturica”. Since the basis of NTS is a 1-to-1 correspondence between letters, I guess it was the first candidate. Other choices (like ç for “ch”) were probably dictated by the Windows-1252 encoding.

larryf58 wrote:
I think I see what you're doing in the example. You're separating out each element of the number into places with the factors below and the D'ni name of the product above, and the number after the caret is the place.
Yep, I’ve used 25^3 instead of 15,625 to make more clear where those numbers came from ;)
You could maybe put it at the end, after the see rah lahn mehl blo list, to show how the various parts are used to spell a number (I’ve used a big number to show all the known digits, but a smaller one would be just as good).

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:56 pm 
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Also, perhaps you could break up the parts even more, like this:
Quote:
As an example, 26 is fah-see fah (1x25 + 1). 628 is fah-rah sehn (1x625 + 3). 31,258 is bree-lahn vah-gah-sen (2x15,625 + 5+3). The highest value that can be expressed in any place is 24, so 624 is ri-gah-tor-see ri-gah-tor (24x25 + 20+4). Note that I've separated the parts, but numbers should actually written like this: rigahtorsee rigahtor

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:04 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Note that I've separated the parts, but numbers should actually written like this: rigahtorsee rigahtor[/b]


Separating rigahtorseerigahtor into two words seems to go against the known examples, in which the additional number after the place name is directly appended (such as fahseefah). Do you have a reason why it should be broken up that way?

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:16 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
If there's a consensus on the double consonant, I'd appreciate knowing so I can correct the spelling on my page.

I agree with Talashar, the geminate consonant should be shortened.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:20 pm 
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The correction of a typographical error, the removal of the extra 'r' in rigahtorah, and the addition of a new table inspired by Korov'ev's math example later... I went and took a look at my page dealing with D'ni timekeeping and saw that I got vailee right in that article. I did say month there. So I changed the reference to it on the math page from days to months and should be good to go.

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