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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 12:53 am 
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Sorry for the ambiguous title, but I honestly don't remember the title or content of what I'm looking for. Here's what I remember:

Back during the Gametap days, Cyan released a couple short documents via the KI to some explorers. The documents were canon, and were supposed to be translations of ancient D'ni writings. I think Thend was the explorer who was originally given the KI documents to distribute, and I remember that they were studied by a group called the Students of D'ni Knowledge, headed by an explorer named DocOlanA.

Unfortunately, neither Thend nor DocOlanA is still active in the community, and I can't find the documents posted on the interwebs anywhere--partially because I don't even know what keywords to search. I remember that at least one of the documents had religious significance for the D'ni, and that's about all i can remember.

I'm trying to get my hands on these things. Does anyone either know where to find the text or remember more about the text so I can more efficiently look for it?

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:47 am 
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This would be what you are looking for - http://dniexplorer.com/archive/index.ph ... ation_Myth

I'm not aware of a second document though, I recall the Creation Myth was released in segments.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 12:36 pm 
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Yeah, great Tweek, I also just found it ... :P

I gave 'Uru DocOlanA D'ni religion 2007' to Google and got this interesting MOUL forums thread with all the chatlogs (on that one page, though the fifth part is missing, but now you fortunately have the whole text) of the Sodk meetings from back in the days ... Maybe you'd like to reminisce a bit in the discussions, and to remember how all of this came about etc., Carl ... :)

There's a DRC forums thread with the distribution of the 'Creation Myth part I' with some background discussion ... Then I gave 'DRC, creation myth' to Google and finally saw Erik's site with the entirety of the provided text passages ... So, now you have it all and double lol, enjoy ... :D

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:58 pm 
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Excellent! Yes, that's definitely it. I think it was indeed one document released in several segments. Thanks, Tweek! You rock, as usual.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:33 am 
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Well... any reference to the creation myth is gonna pull ME out of the woodwork to share my own suppositions about it.

The 'Great Tree', of course, could be seen as a metaphor for MWI theory and the overlapping multiple possibilities of Age instances... multiple similar Ages, like forking offshoots of the same branch... the idea that Yahvo 'created' all the multiple Ages in existence, a myth based on fact.. albeit a misunderstanding of that fact. Did "Yahvo" create ALL the Ages---- or did he write a number of Ages, and believe (like Gehn) that he had created them?

__________________________________________

MY theory hinges on something that hasn't been confirmed nor denied in Myst canon (I'd love to hear from RAWA on the subject, tho.... ):IS it possible to create a linking book for an Age that has never been 'described'--- an Age which has never been 'linked INTO', from outside?

We know four canonical facts, from Atrus' direct experiences with Gehn:

1. Linking books do not have to be NEARLY as detailed as descriptive books, and are much simpler to write. Gehn believed they 'contained the essence' of the description.

2. Linking books can only be written within the Age they link to.

3. When a descriptive book is burned, ALL the existing linking books for that Age will stop working.

4. When an Age is changed too much.... the 'original' Age is lost, as the descriptive book suddenly links to a similar-but-different "new" Age (For example, Gehn changed his Age 37 so much the original Age was lost, replaced by Age "37B"). WHEN THAT HAPPENS.. the linking books all follow the descriptive book, and will henceforth link to the new Age, too-- NOT the original Age. Not a speck of ink is changed in the linking book-- but it follows the descriptive book; changes with it.

These 4 facts tell me one thing: Linking books simply do not function on their own. They 'piggy back' on the existing descriptive book for the Age. What that tells ME, is that a linking book simply will not work, if you if you were to write one for an Age that has no existing descriptive book.. you can write any number of books to link OUT of that Age, sure, but if so.... you can never link back in. Because there's no way to write a description for that specific Age: best you can do is write a similar Age, which is NOT the same one.


The REASON this is important... is that any Age that takes part in the Art (D'ni, Devokan, Garternay) HAS to have a descriptive book in existence, somewhere... otherwise you can never link INTO that Age. By logic, that descriptive book could ONLY be written outside the Age: For example.. the D'ni book was written outside of D'ni, in Garternay.

But who wrote the Garternay book? It stands to reason -- under my theory-- that there'd have to be one... and it could NOT have been written by the Ronay.

The answer to this is simple for me. The Garternay Age is NOT where the Art originated. Some 'stranger' invented the Art, wrote a descriptive book for Garternay and linked there.... and once there, taught the Art to the Ronay people. That stranger's name? Yahvo.


Yahvo-- inventor of the Art, wrote the Garternay Age, and settled there. I previously mentioned, a 'myth, based on a misunderstanding of a fact': Yahvo wrote many Ages and was mistakenly credited with creating them-- generations later, Yahvo is now credited with creating ALL the Ages.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:42 pm 
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HarveyMidnight wrote:
That stranger's name?


Albert Einstein?

According to past lore Linking Books need to be Written in the place they Link to and they contain fragments of the Descriptive Book.

It is unknown as to whether Garternay had a book or not (unlikely as it seems the Art originated on the Age) but the Art as we know it and the Art of Garternay would have been very different. Whilst basic principles would have been the same, rules and what not have been developed over 10,000 years of history. It is possible that the Art the Ronay used was looser, perhaps less safe but who knows.

I've been toying with the idea that the Art came from the Bahro and that is the reason they were enslaved in the first place. But the timeframe is hard to nail down as we don't know how long the Ronay had the Art before Garternay became hostile.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:45 pm 
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In response to Harvey Midnight's post... I guess that's the atheistic view, which I actually LOVE as a hidden backstory to the D'ni's religion, but this is fantasy and like in most fantasy gods and goddesses are *real*, thus Myst is no different. It would be cool to see various D'ni and DRC interpretations of D'ni's beliefs, like Harvey's theory on Yahvo. Would make for some great philosophical debates.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 6:31 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
According to past lore Linking Books need to be Written in the place they Link to and they contain fragments of the Descriptive Book.


The earlier statement that linking books "piggyback" on the descriptive book is correct. Linking books just describe the area around the link-in point, which is why you can have linking books for many places in the same Age. The Museum pod Age, for example had twenty-five. They have to be written in the place they are linking to in order to establish the proper connection to the descriptive book, but after they have, they can be moved anywhere.

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It is unknown as to whether Garternay had a book or not (unlikely as it seems the Art originated on the Age) but the Art as we know it and the Art of Garternay would have been very different. Whilst basic principles would have been the same, rules and what not have been developed over 10,000 years of history. It is possible that the Art the Ronay used was looser, perhaps less safe but who knows.


There is no source that says the Art was different in the Garternay guild of writers. In fact, it took many centuries before the D'ni even attempted to innovate at all. They had a set of strict rules of writing handed down from Garternay, and they taught their writers to adhere to them exactly. That was why Yeesha and Calam got into a fight with another D'ni master -- they were innovating far past what the D'ni rules allowed. The only reason why D'ni had any innovation at all was the invention of deretheni, the lightweight, strong stone used to make maintainer armor. Maintainer heavy environment armor was tough enough to stand up to several minutes of even extremely harsh climates, giving the occupant time enough to link out if it was potentially lethal. That allowed the writers to be just a little more creative. Still, they were always very cautious about writing.

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I've been toying with the idea that the Art came from the Bahro and that is the reason they were enslaved in the first place. But the timeframe is hard to nail down as we don't know how long the Ronay had the Art before Garternay became hostile.


The Bahro didn't invent Ronay linking. There is no evidence that the Ronay ever met the Bahro. One, they were not present on Terahnee, and if they had been known of, there's no way the slave-taking culture of Terahnee would have left them alone. Two, it was D'ni that had the tablet that bound the Bahro, and Ri'neref had split with the Ronay because he opposed enslaving ahrotahntee peoples. From those two facts, it's pretty obvious that the Bahro were discovered long after D'ni was founded.

The reason that the Bahro were bound was actually pretty simple. Some D'ni whose scruples didn't quite match up to the ideals of his neighbors discovered that the Bahro version of the Art was up to moving things between Ages much more efficiently than the D'ni could manage, and when he/they found out how to bind them, it was too great a temptation. The Bahro were bound mainly as an advanced transportation system. That they even existed at all appears to have been a very closely guarded secret; the average D'ni citizen didn't know they existed, and there is no record of them in any document translated by the DRC. Given the D'ni attitude toward slavery, if that secret had broken, the people keeping it would have faced life in a prison Age at best.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 7:21 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
Tweek wrote:
It is unknown as to whether Garternay had a book or not (unlikely as it seems the Art originated on the Age) but the Art as we know it and the Art of Garternay would have been very different. Whilst basic principles would have been the same, rules and what not have been developed over 10,000 years of history. It is possible that the Art the Ronay used was looser, perhaps less safe but who knows.


There is no source that says the Art was different in the Garternay guild of writers. In fact, it took many centuries before the D'ni even attempted to innovate at all. They had a set of strict rules of writing handed down from Garternay, and they taught their writers to adhere to them exactly. That was why Yeesha and Calam got into a fight with another D'ni master -- they were innovating far past what the D'ni rules allowed. The only reason why D'ni had any innovation at all was the invention of deretheni, the lightweight, strong stone used to make maintainer armor. Maintainer heavy environment armor was tough enough to stand up to several minutes of even extremely harsh climates, giving the occupant time enough to link out if it was potentially lethal. That allowed the writers to be just a little more creative. Still, they were always very cautious about writing.


Yes that part of the post was speculation, floating ideas and theories..hence the use of terms like "possibly" and "who knows".

No there certainly is no source that says the Art was different on Garternay (and I wasn't referring to the Ronay Guild of Writers but the Art in general on that Age) and this is where your approach to D'ni lore and mine seem to be different. I don't just look at the facts as we have them in the games and books, I also look at what kind of culture the Ronay/D'ni were and draw ideas and conclusions from their entire culture. Sometimes I get things wrong, more often I get them right.

For example, the Book of D'ni speaks of 4 alcoves in the Temple of the Great King, and in the far (I believe) alcove is the Book to Terahnee. Now one could theorize from the other 3 alcoves that they contain Linking Books to other splinter Ages of the Ronay (we know there were other Ages from Uru). One could draw the conclusion that 4 Ages plus the D'ni book equals 5 Ages total, one could also draw the idea that this is why the number 5 is so regarded in D'ni history.

Is that the case? I don't know, Rawa was strangely quiet when I asked him about it (along with my Bahro theories). But the correlation between D'ni Letters and Numbers (confirmed by Rawa) was not found in any source, it was found through theory and speculation.

Now, with that said the D'ni changed the way the Art was dealt with as soon as they came to D'ni as a by product from Ri'neref being kicked out of the Ronay Guild of Writers due to be asked to Write a slave Age. Also, the old Books (including the Terahnee Book) in the Temple of the Great King were Written in an older form of Garohevtee (which took Atrus' group some time to translate), another example of changes to the Art.

The strict rules handed down to D'ni from Garternay isn't right, as mentioned Ronay were fine with slave Ages (Terahnee being the evolution of this idea) Ri'neref made huge overhauls to the Guilds for D'ni to be closer with Yahvo and his wishes.

As for Yeesha and Calam, Yeesha and Calam argued, quite heatedly about the Art. Yeesha didn't care for the D'ni rules and flaunted them. Calam being a Writer and of D'ni stuck to the rules and didn't like Yeesha's approach. The other figure that appears in the Bahroglyphs that Yeesha and Calam had a run in with (resulting in Calam's death) we don't know who he is or why they had a confrontation. It could be another D'ni, it could be the original Deceiver (Kadish was not originally the Deceiver but was retconned into being the Deceiver for TPots) heck Yeesha may have decided to call in on Grandpa Gehn for giggles and he wasn't happy with another D'ni being there.

In regards to your comment about Derenthi, I wasn't saying the D'ni weren't cautious, I was saying they were and that perhaps they were less cautious back on Ronay. Mind you the D'ni weren't above experimenting some rather outlandish ideas when it comes to the Art, some of what they got up to was cool, crazy, but cool.

Quote:
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I've been toying with the idea that the Art came from the Bahro and that is the reason they were enslaved in the first place. But the timeframe is hard to nail down as we don't know how long the Ronay had the Art before Garternay became hostile.


The Bahro didn't invent Ronay linking. There is no evidence that the Ronay ever met the Bahro. One, they were not present on Terahnee, and if they had been known of, there's no way the slave-taking culture of Terahnee would have left them alone. Two, it was D'ni that had the tablet that bound the Bahro, and Ri'neref had split with the Ronay because he opposed enslaving ahrotahntee peoples. From those two facts, it's pretty obvious that the Bahro were discovered long after D'ni was founded.

The reason that the Bahro were bound was actually pretty simple. Some D'ni whose scruples didn't quite match up to the ideals of his neighbors discovered that the Bahro version of the Art was up to moving things between Ages much more efficiently than the D'ni could manage, and when he/they found out how to bind them, it was too great a temptation. The Bahro were bound mainly as an advanced transportation system. That they even existed at all appears to have been a very closely guarded secret; the average D'ni citizen didn't know they existed, and there is no record of them in any document translated by the DRC. Given the D'ni attitude toward slavery, if that secret had broken, the people keeping it would have faced life in a prison Age at best.


There is no evidence that the Ronay met the Bahro true, but take into account that the Bahro have been enslaved for 10,000 years. D'ni has been in D'ni for 10,000 years. So this puts the enslavement of the Bahro either just before Ronay was abandoned or after the Exodus and not a long time after D'ni was founded. If the Bahro were enslaved prior to the Exodus then their involvement given their abilities is an interesting one.

True the Bahro and their abilities made them helpful as a work force, but I'm not sure it was that simple given their culture and history. But again, without more info on the Bahro we can't be sure.

Also the DRC do document them in the Class Structure notebook if only in passing (references to The Least). But outside of that DRC documentation on their existence and interaction with the D'ni culture is scarce to non existent currently.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:11 pm 
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Given the Millers’ faith, I’d doubt that Yahvo was conceived as anything less than an analog of the christian Göd.

Taken to it extremes, the Great Tree of Possibilities concept could suggest that somewhere in the multiverse there is at least one Descriptive Book for every Age, every variation of an Age and every negation of an Age (that sounded suspiciously like Borges). But just like the Schrödinger’s cat, only one DB can be observed at a time. So it could be that destroying one disables all the Linking Books related to that particular DB, but in the meantime another one comes into existence. In that case, writing a LB would be always possible.

I was under the impression that there are two kind of LB, one Written from inside an Age with no knowledge of the DB, the other from outside, referencing the DB.

10,000 years seems somewhat of a long time to keep a secret; I wouldn’t be surprised if the bahro slavery was an unspoken common knowledge.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:15 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
For example, the Book of D'ni speaks of 4 alcoves in the Temple of the Great King, and in the far (I believe) alcove is the Book to Terahnee. Now one could theorize from the other 3 alcoves that they contain Linking Books to other splinter Ages of the Ronay (we know there were other Ages from Uru). One could draw the conclusion that 4 Ages plus the D'ni book equals 5 Ages total, one could also draw the idea that this is why the number 5 is so regarded in D'ni history.


IIRC, there's no references to the number five actually being significant to the D'ni. It was Gehn who saw it appear many times in many places, and he assumed that it was significant. It's entirely possible that it was just the product of being a bit too hopped up from smoking frogs.

Quote:
Is that the case? I don't know, Rawa was strangely quiet when I asked him about it (along with my Bahro theories). But the correlation between D'ni Letters and Numbers (confirmed by Rawa) was not found in any source, it was found through theory and speculation.


RAWA later did say that the correlation was deliberate, and he sat for years wondering if anyone would notice. The man's sadistic like that.

Quote:
Now, with that said the D'ni changed the way the Art was dealt with as soon as they came to D'ni as a by product from Ri'neref being kicked out of the Ronay Guild of Writers due to be asked to Write a slave Age. Also, the old Books (including the Terahnee Book) in the Temple of the Great King were Written in an older form of Garohevtee (which took Atrus' group some time to translate), another example of changes to the Art.

The strict rules handed down to D'ni from Garternay isn't right, as mentioned Ronay were fine with slave Ages (Terahnee being the evolution of this idea) Ri'neref made huge overhauls to the Guilds for D'ni to be closer with Yahvo and his wishes.


Language shifts are to be expected over the course of 9,000+ years.

There's a very big difference between how an Age was written as opposed to why it was written. Ri'neref didn't like the moral path the rest of the Ronay were on, and refused to write Ages for the purposes the government demanded. He never had a beef with the rules that those Ages were created by, and kept them when the D'ni guild of writers was founded.

Quote:
As for Yeesha and Calam, Yeesha and Calam argued, quite heatedly about the Art. Yeesha didn't care for the D'ni rules and flaunted them. Calam being a Writer and of D'ni stuck to the rules and didn't like Yeesha's approach. The other figure that appears in the Bahroglyphs that Yeesha and Calam had a run in with (resulting in Calam's death) we don't know who he is or why they had a confrontation. It could be another D'ni, it could be the original Deceiver (Kadish was not originally the Deceiver but was retconned into being the Deceiver for TPots) heck Yeesha may have decided to call in on Grandpa Gehn for giggles and he wasn't happy with another D'ni being there.


Yeesha's notes about the time make it clear that she and Calam fought like devils at first for just the reasons you mentioned. However, they eventually began to see value in each other's ideas, and began to learn from each other. It resulted in a synthesis of ideas that was greater than the sum of its parts. It was then that the other master found them and became infuriated.

Quote:
There is no evidence that the Ronay met the Bahro true, but take into account that the Bahro have been enslaved for 10,000 years. D'ni has been in D'ni for 10,000 years. So this puts the enslavement of the Bahro either just before Ronay was abandoned or after the Exodus and not a long time after D'ni was founded. If the Bahro were enslaved prior to the Exodus then their involvement given their abilities is an interesting one.


Where did you get that time period from? I've never seen anything that says how long they were bound, and Yeesha never said either.

Quote:
Also the DRC do document them in the Class Structure notebook if only in passing (references to The Least). But outside of that DRC documentation on their existence and interaction with the D'ni culture is scarce to non existent currently.


And that's a mistake that a person should not make as a researcher. It's an assumption that the Bahro are the "least" mentioned in that document when there is no proof of it.

That document simply mentions the "least" as a supposed seventh, untouchable class of D'ni society. It does not tie the name to the Bahro. The least are also mentioned in Words of the Watcher, but again, he never says that the least are a non-human slave class. It was Yeesha who tied the word to the Bahro, and she had every motivation to do so as propaganda, to associate them with the passages in Words.

What that means is "we don't know". The term could be intended to represent the Bahro, but again, there's every reason to believe that it isn't. Yeesha was the only source for it, and a great deal of what she said can be proven as deliberate misrepresentations or even sometimes as outright lies.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:34 pm 
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As an aside, I’va always felt that the bahro were a needless addition to the story. But hey, they’re canon...

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:37 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
IIRC, there's no references to the number five actually being significant to the D'ni. It was Gehn who saw it appear many times in many places, and he assumed that it was significant. It's entirely possible that it was just the product of being a bit too hopped up from smoking frogs.


The D'ni based their number system, their alphabet, and their time keeping system around multiples of 5. That's hardly a coincidence that all of their basic mathematical and linguistic systems are based around 5.


Tweek wrote:
There is no evidence that the Ronay met the Bahro true, but take into account that the Bahro have been enslaved for 10,000 years. D'ni has been in D'ni for 10,000 years. So this puts the enslavement of the Bahro either just before Ronay was abandoned or after the Exodus and not a long time after D'ni was founded. If the Bahro were enslaved prior to the Exodus then their involvement given their abilities is an interesting one.

larryf58 wrote:
Where did you get that time period from? I've never seen anything that says how long they were bound, and Yeesha never said either.


"I am...set free! Their slavery of ten thousand years is over, and the burden of my family is lifted from my weary heart." - Yeesha Myst 5, spoken to Watson as he freed the Bahro.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:43 pm 
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korovev wrote:
As an aside, I’va always felt that the bahro were a needless addition to the story. But hey, they’re canon...


Me too. I'd have much preferred it if they'd been left out. To me, Myst has always been about archeology and problem solving. The Bahro story line never fit into that very well. It always seemed like Cyan were trying to force a sense of excitement over an aspect of the game that the players never had direct control over.

For example, Rebek... if we'd been given that Age with no introduction and had to find out about its history for ourselves, that would have been fabulous. The tie-in between Rebek and Teledahn was also an exciting discovery waiting to be made, if only it hadn't been spoon fed to us through a bahroglyphs and Yeesha's speeches.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:49 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
Tweek wrote:
For example, the Book of D'ni speaks of 4 alcoves in the Temple of the Great King, and in the far (I believe) alcove is the Book to Terahnee. Now one could theorize from the other 3 alcoves that they contain Linking Books to other splinter Ages of the Ronay (we know there were other Ages from Uru). One could draw the conclusion that 4 Ages plus the D'ni book equals 5 Ages total, one could also draw the idea that this is why the number 5 is so regarded in D'ni history.


IIRC, there's no references to the number five actually being significant to the D'ni. It was Gehn who saw it appear many times in many places, and he assumed that it was significant. It's entirely possible that it was just the product of being a bit too hopped up from smoking frogs.


Gehn mentions it yes, but 5 is an important number for the D'ni this has been confirmed a long time ago by Cyan (back when I joined the community some 16 - 17 years ago Rawa would frequently post to the RivenLysts about D'ni lore offering tid bits and answering questions, unfortunately over the years web sites have closed and archives of these emails have vanished). Not to mention the numerals is base 5, not to mention the references to multiples of 5 being significant (Words of the Watcher prologue for example).

Quote:
Quote:
Is that the case? I don't know, Rawa was strangely quiet when I asked him about it (along with my Bahro theories). But the correlation between D'ni Letters and Numbers (confirmed by Rawa) was not found in any source, it was found through theory and speculation.


RAWA later did say that the correlation was deliberate, and he sat for years wondering if anyone would notice. The man's sadistic like that.


Right, but my point remains it was something that was the case and was discovered by theory and speculation. Also that is not the only thing in the D'ni lore that was until not long ago unsolved.

Quote:
Quote:
Now, with that said the D'ni changed the way the Art was dealt with as soon as they came to D'ni as a by product from Ri'neref being kicked out of the Ronay Guild of Writers due to be asked to Write a slave Age. Also, the old Books (including the Terahnee Book) in the Temple of the Great King were Written in an older form of Garohevtee (which took Atrus' group some time to translate), another example of changes to the Art.

The strict rules handed down to D'ni from Garternay isn't right, as mentioned Ronay were fine with slave Ages (Terahnee being the evolution of this idea) Ri'neref made huge overhauls to the Guilds for D'ni to be closer with Yahvo and his wishes.


Language shifts are to be expected over the course of 9,000+ years.

There's a very big difference between how an Age was written as opposed to why it was written. Ri'neref didn't like the moral path the rest of the Ronay were on, and refused to write Ages for the purposes the government demanded. He never had a beef with the rules that those Ages were created by, and kept them when the D'ni guild of writers was founded.


As I mentioned Re'neref completely overhauled the Guild of Writers when he established it on D'ni this is referenced in Uru and I believe it was referenced on the old DRC site (could be mistaken on the latter will have to check my archive).

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As for Yeesha and Calam, Yeesha and Calam argued, quite heatedly about the Art. Yeesha didn't care for the D'ni rules and flaunted them. Calam being a Writer and of D'ni stuck to the rules and didn't like Yeesha's approach. The other figure that appears in the Bahroglyphs that Yeesha and Calam had a run in with (resulting in Calam's death) we don't know who he is or why they had a confrontation. It could be another D'ni, it could be the original Deceiver (Kadish was not originally the Deceiver but was retconned into being the Deceiver for TPots) heck Yeesha may have decided to call in on Grandpa Gehn for giggles and he wasn't happy with another D'ni being there.


Yeesha's notes about the time make it clear that she and Calam fought like devils at first for just the reasons you mentioned. However, they eventually began to see value in each other's ideas, and began to learn from each other. It resulted in a synthesis of ideas that was greater than the sum of its parts. It was then that the other master found them and became infuriated.


Certainly, however we don't know who the third person was or why there was a confrontation. Certainly we can surmise from the Bahroglyphs that he was D'ni.

"[...]But he was no mirage - his name was Calam. And he was a D'ni Writer of Ages.

Trust did not come easily. There was a conflict between us - between his
ancient rules of D'ni, that I did not respect, and my creativity, which he
feared. We fought and feared and battled and screamed, until exhausted, we
began to learn from each other. We learned of the power of both, just as Father
and Mother had done.

So I learned to Write with all the skills that the D'ni had known - beyond what
my parents had taught me. For their lessons were given by a flawed instructor
and by their own trial and error. I learned to Write from a Master; an
opportunity father was never given. Calam's abilities were breathtaking - he
knew all the D'ni knew, when D'ni fell.

But I taught as well as learned. There were things that the D'ni were forbidden
to Write, words they feared, concepts they shunned. Rules and boxes. I had no
cultural fear of such things, so I dug deeper, asking questions that Calam
could not answer. And together we sought answers.

That is how we learned of the Bahro and the tablet. I learned of its power. We
grew in knowledge and strength, and Calam became one of my dearest friends. I
began to think that it was he who would be the Grower.

But evil will find you, even in the depths of the earth, and Calam was
murdered."

and

"[...]I learned of the fearsome power I wield on that day - the day of Calam's death.
In a fit of rage I destroyed the murderer, and I destroyed my innocence."


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There is no evidence that the Ronay met the Bahro true, but take into account that the Bahro have been enslaved for 10,000 years. D'ni has been in D'ni for 10,000 years. So this puts the enslavement of the Bahro either just before Ronay was abandoned or after the Exodus and not a long time after D'ni was founded. If the Bahro were enslaved prior to the Exodus then their involvement given their abilities is an interesting one.


Where did you get that time period from? I've never seen anything that says how long they were bound, and Yeesha never said either.


Yeesha

"I am ... set free!

The slavery of ten thousand years is over, and the burden of my family is lifted from my weary heart. Praise the Maker! He brought you for this impossible task. You have done well, and many will rejoice. You have chosen the Least ... the Least as Greatest. You have freed us all ... yourself of pride, me of the burden, and the good Bahro of their enslavement. You are worthy of the new D'ni. "

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Also the DRC do document them in the Class Structure notebook if only in passing (references to The Least). But outside of that DRC documentation on their existence and interaction with the D'ni culture is scarce to non existent currently.


And that's a mistake that a person should not make as a researcher. It's an assumption that the Bahro are the "least" mentioned in that document when there is no proof of it.

That document simply mentions the "least" as a supposed seventh, untouchable class of D'ni society. It does not tie the name to the Bahro. The least are also mentioned in Words of the Watcher, but again, he never says that the least are a non-human slave class. It was Yeesha who tied the word to the Bahro, and she had every motivation to do so as propaganda, to associate them with the passages in Words.

What that means is "we don't know". The term could be intended to represent the Bahro, but again, there's every reason to believe that it isn't. Yeesha was the only source for it, and a great deal of what she said can be proven as deliberate misrepresentations or even sometimes as outright lies.[/quote]

It's an assumption that the Bahro are the Least which is backed up by Uru and EoA. Given how the players were going to learn more of the Bahro over several journeys back in Uru Live in 03/04 it's not a stretch for the Least and the Bahro to be one in the same. It is true Yeesha could have tied the word to the Bahro for her own reasons, personally don't believe that is the case but then each to their own.


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