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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 12:18 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
Actually Yeesha and Calam learned of the Bahro together


I left that out because I knew it could cause confusion. If you read it, it says "we learned of the Bahro", not "we learned from the Bahro". In the ninth journal, she says "They treated me with kindness, and I learned from them."

In other words, she and Calam found out that the Bahro existed before his death, but she wasn't taught by them until after he died.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 12:26 pm 
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Ainia wrote:
The hints she leaves behind for us in the Tolesa vault are filled with her pride and glee at having discovered how to Write a link to a parallel Tolesa where she rescues a different Kadish from death.


Wait a minute here. Didn't we agree that those notes left behind in the "alternate" vault were in Catherine's handwriting - not Yeesha's?

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 12:43 pm 
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TOOO wrote:
Wait a minute here. Didn't we agree that those notes left behind in the "alternate" vault were in Catherine's handwriting - not Yeesha's?


News to me. When and where did that conversation take place?

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 1:24 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
Tweek wrote:
Actually Yeesha and Calam learned of the Bahro together


I left that out because I knew it could cause confusion. If you read it, it says "we learned of the Bahro", not "we learned from the Bahro". In the ninth journal, she says "They treated me with kindness, and I learned from them."

In other words, she and Calam found out that the Bahro existed before his death, but she wasn't taught by them until after he died.


Ah I see what you're saying, yeah good point :)

As for the notes in the vault. They are written by Yeesha but it's Catherine's handwriting. This was to make them easier to read (people had trouble reading Yeesha's original font) if I remember correctly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:21 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
Agreed. Yeesha is a much more truthful person in EoA.

However, I've never believed that "evil book" was Kadish and probably never will.

Firstly, in her eighth journal when she talks about it the event, she did not say "I brought evil to us", she said "evil will find you". Those are not the words of one who was expecting the event or who knew the perpetrator.

Quote:
We grew in knowledge and strength, and Calam became one of my dearest friends. I began to think that it was he who would be the Grower. But evil will find you, even in the depths of the earth, and Calam was murdered.


Secondly, Yeesha explains in her ninth journal that she learned from the Bahro after Calam died. That's also when she set up the Path of the Hand. Because of that, she could not possibly have saved Kadish before Calam died.

Quote:
Power is a gift. Power is a curse. I learned of the fearsome power I wield on that day — the day of Calam's death. In a fit of rage I destroyed the murderer, and I destroyed my innocence. And again I learned that most things cannot be returned to how they were. And my power continued to grow even as I began to see that the prophecies of the Grower might speak of me. My destiny began to be fulfilled. But there was still more. The Least. Abused. Mistreated. Misunderstood. Ignored. They were mocked and scorned and their hearts still show their pain, but they continue to serve. Such power they have, and yet they serve. They treated me with kindness, and I learned from them. They respected what I was becoming. With them I learned new laws, new rules, and new powers.


That brings us to this bit of logic: In order for Kadish to be "evil book", Yeesha, in the future after she learned from the Bahro and could bend time, would have had to save Kadish and then take him back into her past so that he could murder Calam. That means that she would have known that he would, since she'd lived through the event.

Not at all logical; if you know someone is going to murder a person you hold dear, you don't go out of your way to enable him to do it.

I too believe that Yeesha was being honest and truthful in her journals, and her words in them prove, at least to me, beyond a shadow of doubt that Kadish was not the man they fought. To believe otherwise, I'd have to assume that Yeesha deliberately resurrected his murderer and then bent time to enable him to commit the crime. Yeesha wasn't entirely sane, but I truly don't think she was that crazy.

Shorah Larry,

I'm a bit confused about your points here since I did not imply that Yeesha's rescue of Kadish had anything to do with bending time. I'd tried to make it very clear that this was a very early effort on her part, certainly before she ever learned anything from the Bahro and obviously at a time when she was breaking all sorts of D'ni Writing rules without having yet experienced negative consequences for doing so. Her use of a traditional D'ni linking book makes that much pretty obvious, not to mention the continued co-existence of the two vaults.

In other words, she rescued a Kadish from an alternate universe rather than the Kadish from the D'ni timeline she grew up in (and which we also inhabit), and whose body still lies in the Tolesa vault. If Yeesha had re-written the Tolesa Descriptive Book, we would be able to access only a single version of Tolesa. Since we have access to two different Tolesa Ages, it appears Yeesha wrote a nearly identical Descriptive Book and rescued the Kadish from there. From a traditional D'ni Writing perspective, it was her only option for attempting to alter the past.

NB: An alternate universe is a necessary consequence of the D'ni form of Writing, which enables only a single entry point into a particular universe/branch of the Great Tree. Space-time manipulation is what the Bahro can do, jump about at will to any branch of the Great Tree, crossing both space and time boundaries as they please, and which Yeesha was a long way from learning at the time of Kadish's apparent rescue.

What happened after Kadish's "rescue" is pure speculation, of course, for the only clear evidence we see about subsequent events is the empty vault. No Kadish, no treasure; which implies that alternate Kadish took his possessions and went elsewhere.

For alternate Kadish to have been Evil Book, he would have had to breach the space-time barriers on his own just as the Bahro can (and just as Yeesha learned later and Esher could do through the Bahro pelt). This is a huge "if" and the primary reason I am inclined to see Kadish as Evil Book is connected to the overall story itself. EoA Yeesha is a very harsh critic of her younger self and although she speaks only in generalities, she makes it clear she had a bitter lesson of her own pride and foolishness. Our big example of this pride is in the empty vault. Granted, there could be countless other examples we know nothing about, so it might be quite a stretch to believe that there is a connection between the empty vault and EoA Yeesha's criticism of her younger self. Yet from the story perspective, these are the threads we have been given thus far. In following this thread, Yeesha's comment that "evil will find you" implies that alternate Kadish figured out how to find her in her own timeline. All of which would imply that alternate Kadish had possession of the tablet at some point (and would explain why Evil Book was so hard to defeat).

Kadish was clever, and a very talented Writer. I'm not sure why the Bahro would have treated him as a candidate for tablet ownership, but then I can't imagine why Esher would have been a candidate either. Nevertheless Esher was, Yeesha was, Watson was, and generations of D'ni were. The history of Bahro exploitation implies that the Bahro weren't necessarily seeking out benevolent personality traits in potential tablet owners, another one of the enigmatic mysteries I would love to quiz Dr. Watson and RAWA about.

I would certainly love to learn more details of the history here, such as how Yeesha defeated the adversary who attacked her, murdered Calam and nearly defeated her as well. She describes her victory as destroying her adversary, yet the bahroglyphs clearly show him imprisoned rather than killed. A part of me wonders if this is the point where Yeesha encountered the tablet; whether in defeating Evil Book, she became the next tablet owner. The bahroglyphs portraying these events imply a series of confrontations between them, with the seventh resulting in Evil Book's defeat. (Interestingly, these bahroglyphs do not portray the tablet at all; in fact, the only bahroglyph showing the tablet is in the Cleft caldera and even there, it looks to have been added in later since it is in a different color from the rest of the panel.) If so, it's no wonder that she struggled so unsuccessfully in mastering the tablet and herself since she would have become the owner when she was immature and in the throes of grief, all while recognizing herself as the Grower of prophecy.

Pure speculation of course, but an interesting possibility. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:35 pm 
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Here's RAWA's statements on the matter as found in the Watson Letters:

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In theory, it’s possible. In practice, it’s not probable.

No matter how specifically you write a Book, there are chaotic elements in the selection of the Age, and since countless Ages will match any given description, you don’t have enough control to link to a specific Age, let alone a specific time in a specific Age.


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Just wanted to clear one thing up, then I’ll let y’all get back to discussing linking theory...
There isn’t anything that says linking to the same Age at a different time is impossible in the “it cannot happen” sense of the word, but it is so extremely unlikely that it for all intents and purposes it is considered impossible in the “it does not happen” sense of the word.

It’s the same reason that it is “impossible” to write two Descriptive Books (not Linking Books) to the same Age (even ignoring whether it’s the same time or earlier time, etc.), even if you write the exact same words in both Books.

The illustration I usually use to demonstrate this is the idea of flipping a fair coin and getting heads a billion times in a row. There’s no reason that it cannot happen, but I for one will not be the one to keep flipping coins until it happens.

To add trying to link to a specific time in a specific Age into the equation makes “impossible” even more extremely unlikely.

The problem is a side effect of the Great Tree of Possibilities. No matter how detailed your description, there are innumerable Ages out there that will match it, and there is an uncontrollable, unpredictable “chaotic” element that “decides” which Age the Book will link to. They may be indistinguishable as far as we’re concerned, but they will be distinct, separate Ages.


What I'm pointing out in these two quotes is this: Yes, you're right that it's theoretically possible that Yeesha wrote a linking book to Kadish's vault just before he died and rescued him. However, by Watson's statement, it's so unlikely that the odds approach absolute zero when using D'ni methods.

First, in effect he's saying that for her to have written a new descriptive book that would link to Kadish's vault is pretty much impossible. She would have gotten a new Age that resembled Kadish's vault instead.

That leaves writing a linking book from the vault that goes back to the time he was there. Again, the variables and quirks involved mean that it would be as close to impossible for her to latch on to a specific time as it would be to write a new descriptive book to the Age, if I'm understanding the first quote correctly.

Only the Bahro have demonstrated an ability to control when they link to as precisely as where they link to. Something else I'm inclined toward is that Yeesha probably did not discover Kadish's vault until just before creating the Path of the Hand. She never mentions anything about the D'ni Ages she used in the Path in any of her journals. She does say that she went down to the Cavern and lived there alone until she met Calam, with never a hint that she left to explore book worlds.

And that's why I believe that Yeesha could not have rescued Kadish before she learned the Bahro Art. She wasn't capable of it, and she very likely hadn't found his body yet.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:19 pm 
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Well, it seems we are in violent agreement about this then. I'm still confused about your statements here since we both seem to be making the same points yet drawing wildly different conclusions.

Oh well. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:37 pm 
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Meh. Happens.

I take the statements from the Watson Letters as RAWA saying "you can't do that with the D'ni Art", and therein lies the difference. It seems to me that you're in love with the theory of Kadish being evil book, and there's nothing wrong with that. It'll just stay one of those things we'll disagree on, and life will continue. ^_^

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:30 pm 
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Ainia wrote:
Time
I am very sad that this was not explored further in cavern events; it was shaping up to be a huge part of the Bahro story and perhaps even The Stranger's story too.

EoA has some huge hints about the Bahro's ability to move outside the timeline; Minkata shows us this in a smaller way too. In Uru/MOULa, we find Watson's old journal abandoned in one of the Great Shaft Tomahns. Yet in EoA, where he "landed" shortly after talking with Yeesha in K'veer, it is a later version of the shaft. The shaft we see in MOULa/Uru is unfinished, so is apparently in an instance of time when D'ni was still a thriving city in the cavern, when the Surveyors were in the process of constructing the shaft itself, when Aitrus was a young guildsman and when Anna was still living on the desert surface with her father (or more probably, before her father and mother had emigrated to the New World, thus before Anna was even born).


Tread with caution here, Myst 5 is a game, it's represented as a game. Whilst the events "actually took place" the differences in how the Great Shaft is in Uru and it is in EoA is simply artistic licensing, nothing to do with time travel.

Quote:
And yet Watson somehow finds himself in K'veer, where the main room contains the keep and is without a Nexus pedestal installed. Yet the damage to K'veer has been done already by Atrus and his hand-held rock cutter, though the door has not yet been removed from the archway in Atrus's old desk area. Over the course of time, we see a number of different versions of K'veer. In Myst, The Stranger meets Atrus there briefly; later in Riven, The Stranger meets him there again. In the Path of the Shell, we see two different versions of K'veer, courtesy of Yeesha. And we see differing versions in EoA and MOULa. There are important differences between each of these K'veers, some more obvious than others.


Again most of this falls under artistic licensing.

larryf58 wrote:
First, in effect he's saying that for her to have written a new descriptive book that would link to Kadish's vault is pretty much impossible. She would have gotten a new Age that resembled Kadish's vault instead.


Right, which is exactly what happened. She went to an alternate Kadish and rescued him, this is evident by the subtle changes to the Vault (different door for example). I don't think it backfired in any sort of way, again I am in agreement that Kadish (or alternate Kadish) isn't the big bad that killed Calam.

It does get muddy with the concept that whilst she created a Link to an alternate Kadish Tolesa, she also arrived at a point early enough to save his life before he expired from either the plague or hunger.

Creating a Link to an alternate Kadish Tolesa is easily within the confines of D'ni (and human) Writing. All it takes is copying the Kormahn into a new Kortee'nea. Linking to an alternate Kadish Tolesa and arriving in time to save Kadish...that's another story.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:20 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
It does get muddy with the concept that whilst she created a Link to an alternate Kadish Tolesa, she also arrived at a point early enough to save his life before he expired from either the plague or hunger.

Creating a Link to an alternate Kadish Tolesa is easily within the confines of D'ni (and human) Writing. All it takes is copying the Kormahn into a new Kortee'nea. Linking to an alternate Kadish Tolesa and arriving in time to save Kadish...that's another story.


And therein lies my point. It's not that she couldn't have written a book that got her to an alternate dimension version of Kadish's vault. That would have been relatively easy. It's that it was impossible to do so and travel back in time to just before his death. That's what I am getting out of what RAWA said the letters.

As far as I know, the only way she could have done it would be using the Bahro Art, which she learned after Calam died. When Yeesha created the Paths and quests, I believe that she was using a synthesis of her parents', D'ni, and Bahro techniques to write the books. She learned to meld her parents teachings with the D'ni alongside Calam, and added the Bahro stuff afterward when they started teaching her.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:31 am 
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Tweek wrote:
Ainia wrote:
Time
I am very sad that this was not explored further in cavern events; it was shaping up to be a huge part of the Bahro story and perhaps even The Stranger's story too.

EoA has some huge hints about the Bahro's ability to move outside the timeline; Minkata shows us this in a smaller way too. In Uru/MOULa, we find Watson's old journal abandoned in one of the Great Shaft Tomahns. Yet in EoA, where he "landed" shortly after talking with Yeesha in K'veer, it is a later version of the shaft. The shaft we see in MOULa/Uru is unfinished, so is apparently in an instance of time when D'ni was still a thriving city in the cavern, when the Surveyors were in the process of constructing the shaft itself, when Aitrus was a young guildsman and when Anna was still living on the desert surface with her father (or more probably, before her father and mother had emigrated to the New World, thus before Anna was even born).


Tread with caution here, Myst 5 is a game, it's represented as a game. Whilst the events "actually took place" the differences in how the Great Shaft is in Uru and it is in EoA is simply artistic licensing, nothing to do with time travel.

Tweek, I'm not trying to imply that every little difference between the various K'veers and Great Shafts is fraught with meaning. However, I do feel that "artistic license" doesn't work with some of the differences that (in my mind) are quite deliberate on Cyan's part.

The most important of these differences is with the damaged and undamaged states of the Great Shaft itself, particularly since BoT describes the event which caused this damage. So in my mind, we are seeing in Uru the Shaft at a time in its past when it was still under construction, before the great earthquake that wrought such havok on the Shaft and nearly killed Veovis. And in EoA, we are seeing the Great Shaft at some point after it was repaired and then abandoned by the D'ni; and where we can see some of the scars still left by the earthquake that the D'ni chose to leave unrepaired but used the elevators to mitigate.

Tweek wrote:
Quote:
And yet Watson somehow finds himself in K'veer, where the main room contains the keep and is without a Nexus pedestal installed. Yet the damage to K'veer has been done already by Atrus and his hand-held rock cutter, though the door has not yet been removed from the archway in Atrus's old desk area. Over the course of time, we see a number of different versions of K'veer. In Myst, The Stranger meets Atrus there briefly; later in Riven, The Stranger meets him there again. In the Path of the Shell, we see two different versions of K'veer, courtesy of Yeesha. And we see differing versions in EoA and MOULa. There are important differences between each of these K'veers, some more obvious than others.


Again most of this falls under artistic licensing.

Here again, I'm not necessarily trying to imply that each difference is fraught with meaning. However, in K'veer, there is a definite logical sequence of states, which still inclines me to view it as deliberate on Cyan's part.

Regarding artistic license, in the past RAWA has said that liberties were necessarily taken to account for the need to tell a coherent story, to transform historic events into a playable game and to address limitations of available technology and resource/time constraints Cyan had to plan around.

Which boils down to Uru being canon by definition and the games as being approximations of "truth". The nature and degree of the approximations are conjecture except in areas that RAWA has clarified for us. I am not aware of any illumination he has shed upon K'veer and the Great Shaft in this regard, so am simply exploring questions inspired by the patterns I've found and seeing where this takes me. I recognize that some of my questions will lead nowhere and others will lead to new questions; and that I won't know where these questions will take me unless I pursue them.

Tweek wrote:
larryf58 wrote:
First, in effect he's saying that for her to have written a new descriptive book that would link to Kadish's vault is pretty much impossible. She would have gotten a new Age that resembled Kadish's vault instead.


Right, which is exactly what happened. She went to an alternate Kadish and rescued him, this is evident by the subtle changes to the Vault (different door for example). I don't think it backfired in any sort of way, again I am in agreement that Kadish (or alternate Kadish) isn't the big bad that killed Calam.

It does get muddy with the concept that whilst she created a Link to an alternate Kadish Tolesa, she also arrived at a point early enough to save his life before he expired from either the plague or hunger.

Creating a Link to an alternate Kadish Tolesa is easily within the confines of D'ni (and human) Writing. All it takes is copying the Kormahn into a new Kortee'nea. Linking to an alternate Kadish Tolesa and arriving in time to save Kadish...that's another story.

This "other story" is actually where I think quantum physics is starting to be explored more fully in the storyline. For instance, I see no reason to assume that the speed of light is *exactly* the same in all the D'ni Ages. Or the weight of an electron. Or the flow of time.

It goes with the territory of "infinite" that there are infinite possible differences between the universe we know as our own and those linked to by the Art. For these Ages to be inhabitable and vetted by the Maintainers, they obviously must be very similar to ours. Physics must work more or less the same, for example. But I see it as highly *unlikely* that what we think of as the laws of physics would be *exactly* the same everywhere in the Tree of Possibilities or even within all the Ages the D'ni would have Written.

For that matter, we already know that time works differently within our *own* universe depending on other factors, such as speed of travel, gravitational strength or nearness to an event horizon.

All of which is getting at my point. It wouldn't have been that difficult for Yeesha to deliberately Write (or even just through dumb luck happen to Write) a Tolesa-like Age where the speed of time flowed a tiny fraction slower than in ours. In other words, it's entirely possible to use the D'ni Art to accomplish this goal if the Writer understands quantum physics (and we already know the D'ni understood it far better than we do). It wouldn't surprise me if the D'ni rules for Writing took this into account, perhaps even expressly forbade trying to alter some basic laws of physics the D'ni considered necessary for stable, usable Ages. And we all know how compelled Yeesha felt to follow D'ni rules. :)

And all of this doesn't even touch upon our underlying assumption that simply by Writing a parallel Age, we would de facto Link into an identical point in a parallel timeline. Yes, the classic example we have from BoA implies this is the case (though technically, it was the result of altering an existing Descriptive Book rather than Writing a fresh one); and certainly in popular literature and movies/television, this is the case. However, I have found no basis for it in the science of quantum physics itself, though I haven't conducted an exhaustive search (yet) of the available literature. Admittedly, the entire topic is one of vigorous debate between scientists, which means nobody is sure what is true or not; and there are differing opinions in those circles about whether science can even answer these questions.

The issue is moot anyway since the evidence we see for ourselves shows pretty clearly that Yeesha did indeed manage to do just this, Write a Descriptive Book for a parallel Tolesa and link to a time there early enough to prevent Kadish's death.

At any rate, considering how closely RAWA has studied quantum physics, not to mention some of his comments to that effect, I think it's valid to assume that quantum physics theory plays a large part in how to understand the D'ni, their history, the Bahro, the Art and the strange events we know about thus far. ;)

To be clear, I'm not expecting anybody to agree with me on any of this. But I did want to point out that my opinions are based upon something a wee bit more solid than being fond of my own ideas! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:23 am 
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Ainia wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if the D'ni rules for Writing took this into account, perhaps even expressly forbade trying to alter some basic laws of physics the D'ni considered necessary for stable, usable Ages. And we all know how compelled Yeesha felt to follow D'ni rules. :)

This seems to me one of the weakest parts of the story: Yeesha and Calam allegedly made more progress than the whole Guild of Writers in 10,000 years. Either the Guild had no research departments and no interest in developing the Art itself, or they did made progress but kept it ‘off the records’.

Come to think of it, a Writers+Maintainers ‘Section 31’ would make sense...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:56 am 
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Ainia wrote:
Regarding artistic license, in the past RAWA has said that liberties were necessarily taken to account for the need to tell a coherent story, to transform historic events into a playable game and to address limitations of available technology and resource/time constraints Cyan had to plan around.

Which boils down to Uru being canon by definition and the games as being approximations of "truth". The nature and degree of the approximations are conjecture except in areas that RAWA has clarified for us. I am not aware of any illumination he has shed upon K'veer and the Great Shaft in this regard, so am simply exploring questions inspired by the patterns I've found and seeing where this takes me. I recognize that some of my questions will lead nowhere and others will lead to new questions; and that I won't know where these questions will take me unless I pursue them.
Agreed ... :P

Ainia wrote:
Tweek wrote:
Creating a Link to an alternate Kadish Tolesa is easily within the confines of D'ni (and human) Writing. All it takes is copying the Kormahn into a new Kortee'nea. Linking to an alternate Kadish Tolesa and arriving in time to save Kadish...that's another story.
This "other story" is actually where I think quantum physics is starting to be explored more fully in the storyline. For instance, I see no reason to assume that the speed of light is *exactly* the same in all the D'ni Ages. Or the weight of an electron. Or the flow of time.

It goes with the territory of "infinite" that there are infinite possible differences between the universe we know as our own and those linked to by the Art ...
For that matter, we already know that time works differently within our *own* universe depending on other factors, such as speed of travel, gravitational strength or nearness to an event horizon ...

... In other words, it's entirely possible to use the D'ni Art to accomplish this goal if the Writer understands quantum physics (and we already know the D'ni understood it far better than we do)...
And all of this doesn't even touch upon our underlying assumption that simply by Writing a parallel Age, we would de facto Link into an identical point in a parallel timeline ...

Admittedly, the entire topic is one of vigorous debate between scientists, which means nobody is sure what is true or not; and there are differing opinions in those circles about whether science can even answer these questions...
Very good, again, I agree ... :)

Ainia wrote:
At any rate, considering how closely RAWA has studied quantum physics, not to mention some of his comments to that effect, I think it's valid to assume that quantum physics theory plays a large part in how to understand the D'ni, their history, the Bahro, the Art and the strange events we know about thus far. ;)
And this very much touches upon why I am actually here and what inspired me to play and explore all those games resp. worlds in the first place, otherwise I wouldn't be here, really ... 8)

It's the spiritual aspects and the underlying quantum physics in all of this and the awesome folks at Cyan who conceived and created this whole D'ni universe, the masterminds and the spirit behind all of this, which one can feel in every nook and cranny, in every pixel, which drew me in and fascinated me and I believe not only me ...

So, everything is ok, however anyone wants to interpret or see all of this, it's ok, it is just as in our so called 'Real Life' lol ... 'All truths are true, all paths are valid' as is being said, and that's what Cyan intended for all of us I believe "U R U"... "Be(ing) Yourself"... isn't that just wonderful? Yes, it is, indeed ...

Great discussion, thanks Ainia and all ... :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:13 pm 
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Ainia wrote:
Tweek wrote:
Tread with caution here, Myst 5 is a game, it's represented as a game. Whilst the events "actually took place" the differences in how the Great Shaft is in Uru and it is in EoA is simply artistic licensing, nothing to do with time travel.


Tweek, I'm not trying to imply that every little difference between the various K'veers and Great Shafts is fraught with meaning. However, I do feel that "artistic license" doesn't work with some of the differences that (in my mind) are quite deliberate on Cyan's part.

The most important of these differences is with the damaged and undamaged states of the Great Shaft itself, particularly since BoT describes the event which caused this damage. So in my mind, we are seeing in Uru the Shaft at a time in its past when it was still under construction, before the great earthquake that wrought such havok on the Shaft and nearly killed Veovis. And in EoA, we are seeing the Great Shaft at some point after it was repaired and then abandoned by the D'ni; and where we can see some of the scars still left by the earthquake that the D'ni chose to leave unrepaired but used the elevators to mitigate.


And I tend to agree with Ainia on this one, Tweek. I tend to think of Descent as a Bahro-made instance of the Shaft specifically created as a haven for Watson while he got his head together. It does indeed show the damage done in BoT, and we know that it was repaired afterward. With Bahro involved, an instance made of a past version of it is plausible. Given its condition, that moves it to likely. This is a case where I think EoA's version is the "real" one.

There are times when one must accept that maybe, just maybe, Cyan actually knew what they were doing and it's not just "artistic license". You're right that they used it; Myst Island's missing living quarters is a good example of that. But that's just it; artistic license in the Myst games tended to leave unnecessary things out, rather than include things that were not meant to be factual. The exception to that were the prison books used in Myst and Riven, which were both. What they left out in those was the fact that they linked to prison Ages, because it wasn't needed in the stories. The non-factual mechanism they introduced for story purposes was that only one person could be in them at a time. However, that's the only example of a non-factual game mechanism I can think of in the entire series. Emphasis on the "I", though. You may remember others. However, the Shaft and K'veer do not belong among them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:54 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Ainia wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if the D'ni rules for Writing took this into account, perhaps even expressly forbade trying to alter some basic laws of physics the D'ni considered necessary for stable, usable Ages. And we all know how compelled Yeesha felt to follow D'ni rules. :)

This seems to me one of the weakest parts of the story: Yeesha and Calam allegedly made more progress than the whole Guild of Writers in 10,000 years. Either the Guild had no research departments and no interest in developing the Art itself, or they did made progress but kept it ‘off the records’.


We have used stone tools for hundreds of thousands of years prior to using metal.
Neolitic structures found on all but two continents show (or better yet proof) that neolitic man was a lot smarter than we tend to give them credit for.
The fact that (as far as we know) Neanderthal never developed the use of metals, or build similar structures tens of thousands of years earlier, does not in any way proof they were any less intelligent than modern man today. Research done in the last decade or so has brought up more than clues to suggest they could have been considerably smarter and developed further than their contempararies our ancesters.
That Yeesha and Calam allegedly made more progress than the whole of the Guild of Writers in 10.000 years does not proof your asumptions.


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