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 Post subject: Accurate(?) Cavern Map
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 12:54 am 
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Hi. I've been working on a map of the D'ni cavern based on the Great Zero mosaic, and borrowing a little bit from previously made maps. It has a few locations marked on it either by KI coordinates, or in the case of K'veer, what I hope is a reasonable guess.

Can anyone give me any other locations to mark on it? Since this map is supposed to be as accurate as possible, please have either visual, written, or some other form of evidence to support your proposal. Also keep in mind that what we see first hand in Uru trumps any other data source.

This is a 4.6MB PNG, so it'll probably be a bit slow to load. Hope you enjoy it and are willing to contribute.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:57 am 
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It sounds like an interesting project.

If I could make a suggestion though, might it not facilitate getting people's support and information if you listed the major sites that you wanted co-ordinates for? That way people can pick a particular site or area and set out to get the co-ordinates for you. I have seen this approach work to great effect in other situations and games.

After that, you could select a more granular approach (region->settlement->building etc.) over time and build up the map by degrees.

Just my thoughts. Nice idea though!

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 2:26 am 
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That's just it; I don't know what sites might be possible to list.

There are only two places I know I need. One is the concert hall in the civic district of Karim, and other than "somewhere south of the island", I don't know much about it. That's why it isn't on the map yet. I also need to figure out where the main tunnel to the South Gate entered into the cavern, since Aitrus' map doesn't do a good job at all of showing the cavern's geography.

What I'm asking for are places that other people may have heard of, and clues about their positions. Anything that isn't one of the basics -- or a basic location that I haven't already charted -- will do.

It just occurred to me; if there are any references to the locations of the known islands, that would be great to have too. There were three, not counting Ae'gura and K'veer:

1. An unnamed island that has a cultural center.
2. Katha, site of the Mystery House, home of the Relyimah.
3. Neref, which is an island we only know the name of.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 2:48 am 
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Maybe that is the first step. Before the map, a coherent list of possible locations needs to be compiled from all available sources. Sounds like a titanic job but it might be an interesting one if handled collaboratively. Every reference to parts of the cavern in all previous games, books, pamphlets etc. could be collected and then locations (using URU as the definitive source) could be located and/or worked out.

Who knows? After all is said and done you might be able to run tours through D'ni visiting the places where mighty events took place.

...

Of course if you didn't want to sign away a considerable portion of your time (as I foolishly did when I compiled the data for my On Writing: The Materials and Method) you could ignore my daft suggestion about compiling a list and rely on the generosity and wealth of kindness of the members of this community... something that I have found to rarely be in short supply ;) .

[EDIT: I just checked on the Guild of Cartographers website to see if anyone had already done this and it looks like they haven't.]

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:42 am 
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Dar'nay wrote:
Maybe that is the first step. Before the map, a coherent list of possible locations needs to be compiled from all available sources. Sounds like a titanic job but it might be an interesting one if handled collaboratively. Every reference to parts of the cavern in all previous games, books, pamphlets etc. could be collected and then locations (using URU as the definitive source) could be located and/or worked out.


That's kind of the idea. I'm asking for a list of places anyone might know of from any source. It just has to be within the boundaries of the cavern.

Quote:
Who knows? After all is said and done you might be able to run tours through D'ni visiting the places where mighty events took place.


Hmm. I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, since you may not be aware that I'm involved in running Uru tours every year. If you are, nice joke. If not... been there, done that, doing it again next fall. ^_^

Quote:
...

Of course if you didn't want to sign away a considerable portion of your time (as I foolishly did when I compiled the data for my On Writing: The Materials and Method) you could ignore my daft suggestion about compiling a list and rely on the generosity and wealth of kindness of the members of this community... something that I have found to rarely be in short supply ;) .

[EDIT: I just checked on the Guild of Cartographers website to see if anyone had already done this and it looks like they haven't.]


And I know they haven't. I'm familiar with the site. This is the first time anyone has added a model of Ae'gura and its satellite island to the GZ map that's the right size. It's also the first time anyone has made a map displaying the direction of true north, or worked out a reasonably accurate measuring scale. The only GoC map that tried anything like this shows lines to the neighborhoods and K'veer... and the K'veer azimuth points in a completely impossible direction. For whatever it's worth, this project is doing new things.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:23 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
That's kind of the idea. I'm asking for a list of places anyone might know of from any source. It just has to be within the boundaries of the cavern.


I am due a reread of the Novels within the next few weeks. Not sure if it would be of use to you, but I could keep notes as I wander through? I had been intending to revisit and finish compiling On Writing anyway, it would be no skin off my nose if I added an extra column.

larryf58 wrote:
Hmm. I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, since you may not be aware that I'm involved in running Uru tours every year. If you are, nice joke. If not... been there, done that, doing it again next fall. ^_^


Sounds good. Actually I wasn't aware of it, although now I hear it, it makes sense. Maybe I will have to tag along next time. I have been away from the cavern for a long time... well, my tenure as part of the community was mostly pre-cavern actually. I didn't have a machine capable of running URU at the time and so was rather left behind... I got pretty grumpy about that and make a few uncalled-for remarks... after which I decided to absent myself so I wouldn't continue to be angry at good people for things beyond their control (such as my ability to take part in the community they were building).

..I wasn't planning on that being for 10 years though ;) .

Quote:
And I know they haven't. I'm familiar with the site. This is the first time anyone has added a model of Ae'gura and its satellite island to the GZ map that's the right size. It's also the first time anyone has made a map displaying the direction of true north, or worked out a reasonably accurate measuring scale. The only GoC map that tried anything like this shows lines to the neighborhoods and K'veer... and the K'veer azimuth points in a completely impossible direction. For whatever it's worth, this project is doing new things.


I agree. It is doing new things and as specified above, I may even be offering to help where I can. It would be good to have a full map of the cavern. Good luck with your research, either way.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 7:51 am 
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Image

Location of Katha island for you.

@Dar'nay no worries, nearly everyone has had a bit of a meltdown at some point during their stay in the community.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 12:49 pm 
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Wish I had something to contribute, but all I can say is: keep up the good work! I've been following this and the other thread that seems to have been involved. Lots of knowledgeable people in this community :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 12:57 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
Image

Location of Katha island for you.

@Dar'nay no worries, nearly everyone has had a bit of a meltdown at some point during their stay in the community.


Yep. Me too.

Tweek, I'll take your word for it, since you have resources I don't. However, I request an overhead view of the outline of Katha and its relative size if you have one. I've put a placeholder on the map, but other than a horizontal view of the front of the Mystery House, I have nothing to show what the island looked like or how far from Ae'gura it was.

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Last edited by larryf58 on Thu May 21, 2015 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:05 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
Tweek, I'll take your word for it, since you have resource I don't. However, I request an overhead view of the outline of Katha and its relative size if you have one. I've put a placeholder on the map, but other than a horizontal view of the front of the Mystery House, I have nothing to show what the island looked like or how far from Ae'gura it was.


Progress is progress! This conversation has spurred me on to finish my own work as well as see if I can't find further notes to assist you with yours.

Tweek wrote:
@Dar'nay no worries, nearly everyone has had a bit of a meltdown at some point during their stay in the community.


True, but most people don't end up having their meltdown in public chat... mostly at RAWA. Poor man, I still feel guilty about that.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:09 pm 
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Dar'nay wrote:
I am due a reread of the Novels within the next few weeks. Not sure if it would be of use to you, but I could keep notes as I wander through? I had been intending to revisit and finish compiling On Writing anyway, it would be no skin off my nose if I added an extra column.


Please! While I know that some of the material in the books is nonsense -- the Book of Ti'ana places J'taeri on the wrong side of the Island, and says the central spire is over a mile tall -- they might have clues to other places that would be useful.

Quote:
Sounds good. Actually I wasn't aware of it, although now I hear it, it makes sense. Maybe I will have to tag along next time.


You should. The tours are a team effort, and we cover material and history that even long time players often tell us they didn't know or realize. We generally get rave reviews of the tours, as you can see in the comments about them in this forum. (Check out the topic Zeke365 Cavern Events in the Events folder.)

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:22 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
Tweek wrote:
Image

Location of Katha island for you.

@Dar'nay no worries, nearly everyone has had a bit of a meltdown at some point during their stay in the community.


Yep. Me too.

Tweek, I'll take your word for it, since you have resources I don't. However, I request an overhead view of the outline of Katha and its relative size if you have one. I've put a placeholder on the map, but other than a horizontal view of the front of the Mystery House, I have nothing to show what the island looked like or how far from Ae'gura it was.


I don't unfortunately, I know the cavern location due to the Intangibles project (Katha is on our work list) but the island layout, I seem to recall some contradictions but I've not actually taken a good look at Katha yet as focus has been on Kahlo and Rebek.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:47 pm 
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About K'Veer, the cavern on the Great Zero map having the same shape that the one on The Book of Atrus, here is another guess:

Image

BTW, how is the "true north" established?
(The map from The Book of Ti'ana also complicates the issue).


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 5:13 pm 
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Okay, did a quick edit of your map with some of my resources, your placement and overall shape of Ae'gura is off, which will throw off your measurements and placement of cavern locations, here is a map showing where Ae'gura is, its overall size and shape.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 5:40 pm 
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jefftom wrote:
About K'Veer, the cavern on the Great Zero map having the same shape that the one on The Book of Atrus, here is another guess:


The Aitrus map has been proven to be unreliable. The sketch of the cavern on it is pretty far off from the actual shape of the cavern. That's why I've started up this project. We covered that in another topic called "translations of inscriptions".

Quote:
BTW, how is the "true north" established?
(The map from The Book of Ti'ana also complicates the issue).


Explorer Carolyn used a site called Wolfram Alpha to calculate the direction of magnetic north at the time the cavern was settled, and found out that for Eddy County, it was 61.94° east. That's the figure I used for setting true north on the map.

The Ronay Guild of Surveyors habitually set the zero meridian of a new Age to magnetic north, or toward a prominent landmark if magnetic north could not be determined. When the D'ni guild was established after the cavern was settled, they kept that tradition.

The Ronay guild had no way of finding true north when they surveyed the D'ni cavern, and wouldn't have cared if they could. I placed it on the map because it's an interesting trivia item, not because it matters to KI navigation.

It does factor into D'ni history, though. King Me'erta once tried to have the zero meridian changed to one that would favor the cult of the Tree and some other cults that were growing at the time. He would only have been able to do that because any D'ni subject with a compass could see that north on the compass didn't match north according to the zero meridian. By the time of his reign it had drifted to 61.49° east. He proposed setting it on a prominent landmark since magnetic north was changing over the years. The landmark coincided with the new temples he favored.

The issue was laid to rest centuries later by King Rakeri. He decreed that the original zero meridian would be the official north of D'ni, and was to remain unchanged forever.

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