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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:16 pm 
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Don't be sad that the forums are away... but take action! Cate says that the forums won't return, but surely we could change her mind, or try that. Cyan didn't say that the forums are gone for good... so it's 100% part of the story, wich we can generally influence. We don't know if we can influence Cate's decision, but if we don't try that, we'll never know!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:49 pm 
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Erik wrote:
Don't be sad that the forums are away... but take action! Cate says that the forums won't return, but surely we could change her mind, or try that. Cyan didn't say that the forums are gone for good... so it's 100% part of the story, wich we can generally influence. We don't know if we can influence Cate's decision, but if we don't try that, we'll never know!


Indeed, one of the things is that we're supposed to be able to influence the storyline... maybe we just need to petition Cate to bring the forums back.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:52 pm 
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She has mentioned in the past that she does "read the forums"... if she meant more than just the DRC ones, maybe she's waiting and watching to see if people's behaviour has changed significantly from what was previously observed on the DRC forum!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:08 pm 
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Quote:
(02/05 20:07:57) Cate Alexander: I've heard some complaints about the lack of forums on the new site? Does anyone here care?
(02/05 20:09:20) Cate Alexander: I do want to spread the word that they will not be returning. There seems to be some confusion.

OOC:

Cyan,

I must protest this despicable holding hostage by a storyline of our DRCSite.org Real Life discussions. I can't tell you how deeply offensive this is. How utterly unacceptable this is. How abusive and inappropriate and irresponsible it is to take our Real Life contributions as so much fodder for your fiction. My words are all I have; all that I am in this community you have created. We put a lot of ourselves in the history of those discussions for over a year while Uru Live went from a flicker of hope to a full launch. Frankly, you have eradicated any will I have to invest myself further in such creative and time-consuming discussions as I begin to realize just how little compunction you have about taking our Real Life efforts from us in a misguided plot device.

I intensely resent the real life and duplicitous game you are playing with what we have unwittingly handed to you to keep for storyline ransom. I guess I must revise my habits to avoid this mistake from happening again by putting such creative energy into things you can't use for your own leverage. I refuse to waste my time giving you the tools to manipulate me in Real Life. I refuse to hand you a weapon to use against any of us.

You might know what's going to happen. You might know that with a little effort, we will regain what we innocently handed you. You might know everything will be okay next week if we just have a sit-in on the Ae'gura steps for a day or two. But we don't know, and it gives me a great sense of loss and hurt, and it appears you think that's okay because maybe, as the saying goes, the end justifies the means. It's a bad thing you've done at our expense. You might have the legal right to anything we give you here, but it's just plain immoral to do what you are doing with it. This insertion of the storyline into our Real Life is absurd.

You have gone too far in this Real Life maneuver. Play your games in the Cavern. Not with our real lives. Hold your own words and creativity and efforts hostage, but not mine. You have either thrown away a year of our contributions with complete disregard, or are dishonorably using what we've given you against us. Either way, it's an outrageously disgusting thing to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Pooh!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:34 pm 
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Islander wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
Quote:
Toh'mas: noted, we'll pass the word.

What is WRONG with people? Why don't you fight against this nonsense, or at least do something than sit there like a throw rug? God, had I been there I would have probably needed to be restrained.

I swear, somebody has to do something or you will all die like rotten cabbages.

Err, 'scuse me? More to the point, what's wrong with people that think it perfectly OK to just start an argument with a figure of authority in the middle of the cavern? Not on, not on at all.

The only proper way to get past these problems in life is to tackle them calmly and politely. Having a stnad-up row with Cate in the city will do no good, and will just make any conversasion difficult to follow.

I'm not much of an activist like some people in the cavern, but Ed certainly has a point. Judging from the chat log, many of the folks interacting with Cate yesterday in the city simply acquiesced to her pronouncement. I can understand that it's easy to get flustered in those circumstances, but still... No one asked Ms Alexander who exactly made the decision to drop the public forums or why. If the DRC made the decision, then why didn't a DRC member deliver the news? Was the decision to drop the forums consensual, or was it a decree that came down from on high. These kinds of questions can be asked politely, but there is no reason to take it lying down, considering it affects us all.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:37 pm 
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JWPlatt,

I often hold your commentary in high regard. But today I disagree with your rather lengthy discourse above.

If your Real Life discussions and conversations are really that important... you should probably host them on your own space and bandwidth. I have never felt that the DRCsite forums were the correct place for such discussions in the first place. It was meant to be an IC website. Somehow we kept drifting further and further away from that.

I hope the DRC forums will return again someday, but right now, I am enjoying the break from the drama there.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:44 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Quote:
(02/05 20:07:57) Cate Alexander: I've heard some complaints about the lack of forums on the new site? Does anyone here care?
(02/05 20:09:20) Cate Alexander: I do want to spread the word that they will not be returning. There seems to be some confusion.

OOC:

Cyan,

I must protest this despicable holding hostage by a storyline of our DRCSite.org Real Life discussions. I can't tell you how deeply offensive this is. How utterly unacceptable this is. How abusive and inappropriate and irresponsible it is to take our Real Life contributions as so much fodder for your fiction. My words are all I have; all that I am in this community you have created. We put a lot of ourselves in the history of those discussions for over a year while Uru Live went from a flicker of hope to a full launch. Frankly, you have eradicated any will I have to invest myself further in such creative and time-consuming discussions as I begin to realize just how little compunction you have about taking our Real Life efforts from us in a misguided plot device.

I intensely resent the real life and duplicitous game you are playing with what we have unwittingly handed to you to keep for storyline ransom. I guess I must revise my habits to avoid this mistake from happening again by putting such creative energy into things you can't use for your own leverage. I refuse to waste my time giving you the tools to manipulate me in Real Life. I refuse to hand you a weapon to use against any of us.

You might know what's going to happen. You might know that with a little effort, we will regain what we innocently handed you. You might know everything will be okay next week if we just have a sit-in on the Ae'gura steps for a day or two. But we don't know, and it gives me a great sense of loss and hurt, and it appears you think that's okay because maybe, as the saying goes, the end justifies the means. It's a bad thing you've done at our expense. You might have the legal right to anything we give you here, but it's just plain immoral to do what you are doing with it. This insertion of the storyline into our Real Life is absurd.

You have gone too far in this Real Life maneuver. Play your games in the Cavern. Not with our real lives. Hold your own words and creativity and efforts hostage, but not mine. You have either thrown away a year of our contributions with complete disregard, or are dishonorably using what we've given you against us. Either way, it's an outrageously disgusting thing to do.



Uhmm..

OOC: But, JWPlatt, aren't the DRC forums in character.. and a part of the storyline? Maybe they are dropping them because plot points they had been trying to put on them were being missed? Or similar? And they are turning out to be ineffectual? Or something?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:47 pm 
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JW, calm down. This is obviously an IC move by the DRC. Instead of beating the snot out of them, pm or e-mail GD politely asking what will happen to the forums and more importantly the information there. Or lodge a ticket, call a ResEng whatever.

I think this is perfectly acceptable from an OOC standpoint (I decapitating Cate next time I see her, but that's another matter). The DRC site as a whole is an IC site. No two ways about it. There was an OOC forum there, but that was all. They're not manipulating you or using weapons against you or anything like that. The DRC *NOT* Cyan has power over that site, so aim your cannon at Cate and the other DRC. Part of the story is that the DRC can and will do what it pleases and only changes its mind when it's met with overwhelming opposition by the explorers. This is part of the storyline, get used to it. While I have never heard of such a drastic action taken by the DRC (with the exception of the Ae'gura shutdown after the 19th) rest assured that with work from us, the DRC will put it back up.

But please don't take out your aggression on Cyan.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:50 pm 
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:yeahthat:

I neglected to mention that I'm far more upset ICly than OOCly about the removal of the DRC forums ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:20 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
pm or e-mail GD politely asking what will happen to the forums and more importantly the information there.

I did politely PM Cyan and got a response, which I must say was unexpected and courteous. I won't say who or what because I generally don't refer to, mention, or reveal the content of PM's. I wasn't incensed until I saw Cate's chat log.

Marten, it is well known that DRCSite.org was THE official Cyan site to be for the resurrection of Uru Live until MystOnline. We had a community and history there. An OOC section was opened to alleviate the intolerance and provide a place for everyone. These things seem perpetually forgotten or ignored. I happen to believe it will be necessary no matter where such an IC forum is hosted. That's another debate.

The posts, threads and forums exist in our real life, or at least the OOC forum does, and should not be used as a tool. You can't simply disclaim them retroactively. It seems to be the old IC troops lining up on this again. I will always remember the intolerance of OOC there because, as I mentioned in some of the threads now unavailable, the intolerance was my first impression. And it continues. So perhaps it has become a cause.

Maztec, the insertion of the storyline into holding our real words hostage is what I find offensive. Or worse, trashing them wholesale without regard.

All I can say is, lesson learned. I don't think it's a good one.

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Last edited by JWPlatt on Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:23 pm 
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I'd be OOC intolerant again if that starts up on the new DRC forum. We've more than enough places already to be OOC.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:48 pm 
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I don't think the intent is to hold the forum posts hostage until a later date - we knew that the site was due for an update, since it was still designed around the original beta content from so many years ago. The site was taken down and a new site put up in its place. The original forums will most likely never return - I can fully understand your anger about that, and perhaps you should contact Cyan to see if they have a dump of the forums before their removal, if you value your posts that much.

But I really don't think Cyan is playing with us by locking us out of the forums for plot reasons. The site was taken down and replaced. If we get a key into some forums on that site, they will be completely different and unrelated. Forums get taken down all over the internet. It's an odd feeling, and I've been on both ends of it - having my work erased and erasing an entire community. The internet is an unstable place - make backups of anything you truly value.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:59 pm 
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I see no reason to apologize for trying to get people to show some spine, and it's unbelievable that adventurers will flock to the defense of the people who are trying to hurt us. I agree that we need to come up with a suitable way to make pointed questions known, naturally, and if that entails being polite, I'm all for it. For the time being, though, Cate has unwisely thrown all the rules of civil conduct out the window by making public pronouncements that call into question the whole legitimacy of the venture. This predictably has had the result of making people irritable. If I had invested in a venture that was performing below expectations, I wouldn't go directly to the people. I would take the DRC to court if there were alleged wastes of money, do whatever, but if I didn't trust my own mouth I would keep it shut.

I realize that some people are just irrational enough to do just what happened, especially if they are working towards replacing the current leaders of the venture (the DRC, I guess), but going to adventurers is completely ineffective towards achieving this goal. What do they want us to do, push our DRC friends off the pier into Shroomie's mouth? The best thing I can come up with at the moment is to guess that perhaps DRC people are missing tons of meetings and we happened to luck upon an irritable Cate.

As for the "figure of authority" bit, well, this is a democratic society (the Cavern *is* under New Mexico jurisdiction, after all), and I am not willing to kowtow to some two bit businessperson when they do not show the least interest in conducting themselves professionally. It is absurd to do things this way, and if Cyan is involved that makes it doubleplus ungood. If they are actually the ones backing Cate, they should have the guts to come out and say what their plans are for the DRC.

I love Cyan, but we saw how the ResEngs either don't want to say or haven't been told the most basic facts, such as that Mr. Rand Miller works for Cyan. There's also various other demonstrable biases in how they are presenting the history of Uru to the public. Jeez. That log journal's in plain view for everybody, and has been for a long time.

In a legal sense, of course, the DRC site's real owners are able to do pretty much whatever they want. I'm pretty sure there is a provision that you sign away any claim to copyright, and of course you don't have any recourse for harm (at least not a reasonable one) when a non-essential free service like that is ended.

All I can say for certain is thank goodness the guys over at Carlsbad don't have to deal with this stuff. National Park Service to the rescue!


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 Post subject: Re: Pooh!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:16 pm 
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Ed Oscuro wrote:
Quote:
Toh'mas: noted, we'll pass the word.

What is WRONG with people? Why don't you fight against this nonsense, or at least do something than sit there like a throw rug? God, had I been there I would have probably needed to be restrained.

I swear, somebody has to do something or you will all die like rotten cabbages.


How pretentious can you get Ed? First of all, don't quote me, one person, and assume that is the attitude of the entire community. Your post (and others in this forum) attest to that. Second, don't assume that the handful of people who happened to be there is the attitude of the entire community (see above sentence). Third, who are YOU to impose your attitude on me or to judge me in any way? You call me a "throw rug" and claim there is something "wrong" with me? Why? Simply because I don't agree with you? Please. Had I been vehemently opposed to the removal of the forums, I would have said so. I'm not, so I didn't. I stated my concern on the matter. As the DRC (and by extension, Cate) controls those forums, it is their decision what to do with them.
Cate said, "Please pass X on to the community." Please tell me what would have been accomplished if we were to say "No, how dare you! Blah, blah, blah." She asked us to pass it on, I said that I would. I didn't make any judgements either way, nor was it my place to (and certainly not in that forum).

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 Post subject: Re: Pooh!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:48 pm 
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In my view, you and the others just soaked it up, and wasted a valuable opportunity to try to get an answer. I am naturally glad that we at least got the log, but more could have been done.

Remember that we are people, not dumb terminals. We can effect changes on the world - we're not idle participants watching static cutscenes. Hopefully in the future more people will have sense than has been displayed by some persons. Consider it a request.

I really don't care how the questions are asked - if I had the opportunity, I would simply ask why she is going to us, and how she views that as being appropriate.

Finally, I wonder where you are finding an order in my statement. Unless required by law, I wouldn't feel justified forcing anybody to do anything. I merely give suggestions and transmit my honest feelings. I am not universally condemning the behavior of uncritical adventurers, but I am calling into doubt the efficacy of a completely non-judgemental attitude.

Finally - and I've had to deal with this before - I find it ironic that people repeatedly accuse me of attempting to force them into things while they themselves are trying to pressure me to do the same. Oh no, joking with the ResEngs - burn him at the stake! He is lowering the quality of my journey! Tarnishing the sacred spirals! I communicate my tensions, yes, and how is that unacceptable? Uncompromising honesty is my modus operandi - when I give thanks for a job well done you can be certain that it is sincere. This time, I feel that an error was made. You yourself have proven quite capable of flying off the handle when presented with a single sharp criticism of one tiny regrettable (in my opinion) aspect of what is probably a very well-natured overall personality. I'm not saying you're worthless, and despite your outburst I still don't feel any hostility towards you. In fact, I now feel a bit of comraderie, since we have both submitted ill-considered rants in a short space of time judging each other.


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