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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:35 am 
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klaxen wrote:
The storyline (from the way i see it from clips online and discussions in the forums) seems to be a basic direction. Here is what I think....

Cyan has a basic outline of where they want to go.


This is what I'd like to know...

I think we might all agree that the ending hasn't been written; that the Uru story is not 100% scripted. But, from GD's post I get the impression that the DRC NPC's are 100% improvisational; as if they are actually just players, hired actors or perhaps close acquaintances that were lucky enough to get recruited in the project's infancy to play NPC's however they see fit. Is this the case?

My personal feeling is that the answer lies somewhere in between. Not 100% scripted, and not 100% improvisation and ad lib. I want to believe that Cyan has a grand vision, and I'm hoping they wield some control over their characters, that there is indeed a basic outline.

Many have called this whole issue a "side-plot", but can we assume this as fact? We are only 2 1/2 months into a restoration project that could take years. This is paragraph one of chapter one. Who's to say that recent events will have no effect on the future of the restoration or that they will not eventually be integrated into an overall plot? I sure wish I knew, but that would take all the fun out of it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 10:08 am 
Sosiqui wrote:
I'd also like to add one small thing about RPing. I roleplay extensively and have for years - and sometimes things happen that you could have never expected as the charcters take on lives of their own. Now, I don't mean this in a mystical "THEY'RE TALKING TO ME! I'M CHANNELING SOULS!" kind of way... but many people who roleplay and write can tell you that charaters have a way of defining their responses and reactions to things in ways their creators wouldn't have expected upon their intitial creation.

Sometimes in RP for me, situations I could NEVER have predicted have popped up, simply because of how the character is. If a character I'm playing is an arrogant twit and he's arrogant at you, this doesn't mean *I* OOC am being arrogant at you - it means the character is. And so on.

Maybe it's tough to explain if you've never experienced it, but none of GD's other posts on that subject have surprised me. It's... normal.


Um. Very much yes, very much but. Yes, I RP in exactly the same way. My principal character is currently busily painting himself into a corner from which the only exit may be to retire that character and introduce a new one who will not be as engaged with the matter of D'ni as his predecessor. Which will be a pain, because he will thus be less me, but that's characters for you.

But...if my character is arrogant or offensive to your character, while it may not be "me" doing it, I am still responsible and if you the player are offended (e.g. if you're not RPing and don't realise or don't care that I am) the amends should come from me. RP is not a licence for antisocial behaviour that spills over into the "real" world, and while it's good if we can make an effort to take the eccentricities of other people's characters in stride, there's a line that can be crossed, and shouldn't be.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 1:45 pm 
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I have visited this thread off and on, and try to keep up on what comes up in general in our forums, as a "good neighbor".

Though it is hard at times to see the issues that come up, such is inevitable with a group of any more than one person :) adjustments and working for consensus is all part of being in the world, whatever world that is.

As URU exists solely because it has been brought to us, from its origins and sources by Cyan as the facilitator of the sharing of the story that fact alone ensures that they will be and are the channel for the explostuation of this presentation. We are the visitors and explorers and as such we are indeed whether as we are "in the game" and also as the person directing the "in the game" persona or personas, we are responsible for our actions and words. So as we express our hopes about Cyan's responsibilty and role in sharng the URU story and the restoration and discovery of the D'ni civilization, we have our own equal role to play concerning our own presence here.

What is done or said by anyone in the game or connected to it, they are alone responsible for, a character does not "control" that, though a persona certainly has its own characteristics and nature and hopefully for consistency, a fully realized character will follow a definite path connected to it's own nature.

In the end, in any interaction, there are consequences and rewards for actions of any pattern. Kindly and supportive actions and characters may expect friendship and support and encouragement and various joys in return. Negative and antagonistic actions and characters may certainly experience similar returns. As I experince plenty of negative and fearful and "limited" actions and people in life on the surface, my hope and choice if i have one is to associate and to interact with positive and friendly and nice people in the cavern and in my interest in learning more about D'ni and the excavations in the city and the exploration of the revealed D'ni Ages and relics. I am very grateful that the DRC are willing to help coordinate this effort, and see no positive result possible from antagonistic efforts against the DRC, and would personally make a request that the Anti DRC hood be closed and expunged from the hood list, that is my own request from me, one explorer and one that I have not made before, but I do not enjoy seeing that negative message each time I link to the Nexus and more than I would enjoy seeing a "Kill the Bahro" Hood or a Anti anything hood.

Everyone is welcome to their opinions, and I am expressing mine. I wish everyone well, but I also wish to have the most pleasent experinece here and want to say that I feel the DRC and all facilitators of the effort such as teh ResEngs deserve and should have total respect and not be aggressively bombarded by any individual as all our time is limited in the cavern who must also continue lives on the surface as well, with duties and responsiblities. I practice as much as I can in both life on the surface and in the cavern a concern for principles not personalities, in othe rwords, I am not sharing about this "against" any person or persona in the game, as I don't feel, as I have been saying here, that is a nice way to live or that that helps add to anything. Rather, I feel principles of courtesy and kindess enhance any effort. Positive suggestions and encouragment seem from my own experince to be much more creative and helpful. Certainly this would not be such an issue I feel if this was not a senstive topic concerning freedom and expression and it is a good thing for us all to look at and share about.

I trust Cyan and the DRC and all of us to find ways to work together for the common good and for the most open path for us all. Best wishes to everyone.

Shorah

PS I was thinking affter i posted this, in a way there is no way to be anti something that is already anti without being anti onself....., so perhaps consider all my sharing above my musings and hope for Peace in the cavern, and hopefully a reflection of how much i care about us all and URU and leave it at that. :) Light and Peace :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:06 pm 
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greydragon wrote:
bbainter wrote:
Not sure how believable it is though.


Please explain.

Do Sawyer’s actions on Lost represent the views of ABC?

Do Hiro’s actions on Heroes represent the views of NBC?

I’m not trying to go against your comment. I just want to understand the unbelief. To Cyan, Nick White is no different then Captain Nemo. Both are characters in an epic story. Both have a story to tell.


Are you suggesting we treat Uru as Lost? Because I hate Lost...

And as far as the "Nick White" character, if he were to inadvertantly 'flirt' with someone that was actually a 12 year old girl, I doubt a jury would feel quite the same as you when it comes to whether the DRC and Cyan are connected.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:28 pm 
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greydragon wrote:
With "sweeps" we hope you find what you want in Myst Online. More on that soon.

:)

Peace.


Nice quote, GD! Mind if I pick that apart? :twisted: :P

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:45 pm 
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I'm a bit conflicted on GD's response to this whole matter. On one hand, I'm glad to have further official support for the point I've been trying to make about not reading "messages from Cyan" into every word or action taken by their characters. OTOH, I, like bbainter, am also struggling with my belief.

greydragon wrote:
We will work on making changes to our "programing" to better suit the needs and wants of our "viewers".

Here may be the crux of the problem. We aren't simply "viewers". ABC may not agree with Sawyer's opinion that it is okay to cheat people out of money. I am quite sure that ABC is of the opinion that it is great for the writers of Lost to have one character cheating other characters in order to entertain third parties on the other side of the TV screen. But, I would have some serious questions to put to them if they sent Sawyer out to my home to run a con on me.

Nick has reason, as a character, to foment conflict in the Cavern. The fact that Nick likes conflict does not mean that Cyan likes conflict, but it certainly means that stories about conflict are not out of bounds. It is Cyan's choice as to whether to introduce a conflict-loving character into the story, and his actions certainly do send the message that Cyan is more than willing to see that character's efforts bear fruit among we other characters.

Personally, I don't mind that in theory, unlike some of the other posters. However, Nick's motives for wanting dissention are not as clear to me as GD seems to find them. And Nick has certainly not given any of OUR characters a good motive to go along with his desires, unless those characters are paranoid loonies or professional trolls. The material we have been given to work with so far makes any sort of open conflict at this point in the story seem simply irrational, which doesn't feel like good story to me.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:23 pm 
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Quote:

Nice quote, GD! Mind if I pick that apart? :twisted: :P


Go ahead

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Last edited by greydragon on Wed May 02, 2007 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:43 pm 
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I'd like to think it means you are going to actually formally ask us what we would like

It'd be nice :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:11 pm 
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Remarkably long post ahead. Sorry 'bout that, but I put a lot of time into it, so I hope you'll read it. And I'd like to think it's broken up into sections comfortably enough. Anyways....

Quote:
BladeLakem: "However, it seems what Cyan has provided is an environment and a set of personalities which exist solely within the boundaries of that environment. Nick isn't the plot element that exists to touch off in cavern conflict, he is a character who has a bit of a subversive side and is vulnerable to the romantic attentions of women."


That's how I've always seen it....back during the first incarnation of Uru, Nick was helping Sharper with his keeping-secrets-stuff, so clearly Nick has already been established as a DRC-employed person who doesn't see eye-to-eye with his employers about everything. And I think that, while he was also meant to come across as enjoying the company of the fairer sex, I don't think that it was meant to be as big of a deal as people made it--it was simply meant to be part of his personality, and people chose to focus on it.

Quote:
BrettM: "Nick has reason, as a character, to foment conflict in the Cavern. The fact that Nick likes conflict does not mean that Cyan likes conflict, but it certainly means that stories about conflict are not out of bounds. It is Cyan's choice as to whether to introduce a conflict-loving character into the story, and his actions certainly do send the message that Cyan is more than willing to see that character's efforts bear fruit among we other characters.

Personally, I don't mind that in theory, unlike some of the other posters. However, Nick's motives for wanting dissention are not as clear to me as GD seems to find them. And Nick has certainly not given any of OUR characters a good motive to go along with his desires, unless those characters are paranoid loonies or professional trolls. The material we have been given to work with so far makes any sort of open conflict at this point in the story seem simply irrational, which doesn't feel like good story to me."


Indeed, conflict IS the heart of story, so by introducing a slightly-subversive character like Nick, it's not because Cyan wants us to all get angry at each other ;), but because they want to create conflict--not "conflict" in a bad context....just a "story" context.

As for why GD seems to understand Nick more than you do, that's because GD is a Cyanist :P Of COURSE knows more about it than we do :) If you don't understand Nick's motives at all, I guess it's because you don't have very many issues with the DRC. But those who DO were the ones that followed Sydney....and I'd like to think that by this point in this thread, we'd established that, while many of us disagreed with the ADM's motives/methods, and while the ADM stuff didn't turn out like they had hoped, calling Sydney & Co. "paranoid loonies" or "professional trolls" is perhaps going a bit too far.

Quote:
Eleri: "What I see happening here, is, perhaps, is more like a self-guided tour. Nick-player, in this case, gets a area map, with some key locations that have to be visited, and perhaps in a certain order even... but how he gets from place to place is entirely up to him.

Which means, in essence, that the people behind DRC characters, and other NPCs, are MUCH closer in nature to PLAYERS, then they are to the GMs. They're like players who happen to have gotten a bit more data from the GM (in this case, Cyan) than others."


Exactly :) The way I've always seen it, the "characters" in Uru (Nick, Sharper, Cate, the DRC, the ResEngs, etc.) certainly push the plot along from time to time through specific appearances/actions that Cyan wants them to do, but they are also given a certain amount of freedom of action in terms of their character. In other words, they know what kind of person their character is, and therefore how their character is expected to act, and when they're not doing the more "scripted" things that Cyan needs them to do to further the plot, they ad-lib their actions/interactions according to their "character platform." As Heaven so simply put it:

Quote:
Heaven: "My personal feeling is that the answer lies somewhere in between. Not 100% scripted, and not 100% improvisation and ad lib."


With that in mind, from GD's initial post in this thread, I kind of got the impression that while Nick's subversive side was certainly "scripted" by Cyan when they created the character, his decision to encourage the ADM was ad-libbing on the part of the guy playing Nick. I might be wrong about that, but even if I am, it doesn't change my feelings about Uru "characters" being part scripted/part ad-libbed.

Quote:
tkwiggins: "The Cyan employee portraying Nick tossed sparks in a tinder box. A well-known tinder box -- the overall result was predictable and was predicted by many. For his actions, he and those who directed him are responsible.

In the weeks of catfighting that followed, Cyan could have quelled it either IC or OOC. They chose not to. For their inaction, they are responsible.

The players are responsible for their behavior, definitely. But the ego-stroking encouragement they were given to behave in this manner -- indeed, the selection of which players were encouraged -- was and is the sole responsibility of Cyan Worlds, Inc."


I can understand why you feel that way, but....

Quote:
klaxen: "The only thing Cyan couldn't predict is the player reaction so such a story arc. The way i see it, Cyan saw how much tension there was so Cate appeared to quell the ADRCM. notice how close we were to a breaking point with the ADRCM tension.. is it any coincidence that Nick was "put on leave" and Cate decided to show up not once but TWICE in the past few days, and both times confronted or talked to Sydney directly?"


With any "storyline" in Uru, Cyan can never entirely predict how we will react. I, personally, believe they didn't step in because they wanted to see if WE, the Explorers, could deal with the contention that had developed. Of course, as klaxen said, some people see Nick's temporary suspension and Cate's recent visits (and interactions with Sydney) as Cyan-interventions, and I suppose they could be....perhaps Cyan finally decided that we needed help dealing with the contention. But remember what GD said:

Quote:
greydragon: "The views and opinions expressed by characters and actors in this game do not necessarily reflect the views of the game's developer, its management, its advertisers or its employees."


It's also possible that Nick's suspension and Cate's recent visits (and interactions with Sydney) are NOT Cyan-interventions, but timely In-Character responses to the contention by the DRC. Just some food for thought :)

WOW, this turned out WAY longer than I meant it to....sorry about the long post. Especially since just about everything I've said here was probably said in another form already :)

*sheepish look*

Just wanted to speak up :) I'll shut up now.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:50 pm 
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With any "storyline" in Uru, Cyan can never entirely predict how we will react. I, personally, believe they didn't step in because they wanted to see if WE, the Explorers, could deal with the contention that had developed.


Bingo. Nick may have pointed Sydney to the tool shed, but it was Explorers who started digging a big hole.

One thing I've learned over the past year or so, through events that were personally VERY stressful... is that if something happens in D'ni, you have to deal with it, in D'ni. Cyan isn't going to reach a Monty-Pythonesque hand from the sky and make everything all better, or even clear and understandable.

Now that I've accepted that premise, Cyan's radio silence in things happening in Uru doesn't bother me nearly as much. I don't need them to tell me what's plot, and what's a bug... what's real, and what isn't. I react as I would if it happened in the middle of my living room, with me standing there.

When I am in Uru, I accept the boundaries set by Cyan as Truths. D'ni is a real place. I really link there. Cyan is a game company fed information by the DRC. Once I slipped into that headspace, I stopped needing Cyan to explain things, feed my lifelines, tell me what to do next...because they don't *know*.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:12 pm 
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So maybe what we need to be asking ourselves, IC, is something like this:

What does Nick White get out of betraying/working against his employers, the DRC?

And maybe Sydney, talking with Nick about ammunition she can use against the DRC, will want to keep in mind that he who betrays one will more than likely betray another. . . .

Another thought is that if other DRC employees are worried about security, IC players might ask Nick ---or drop hints and gossip around the cavern and appropriate forums--- what it would take to get one or another of them to come in-cavern and chat a bit. .. . possibly even by voice chat that can't be logged. I have read posts where people have wondered why Nick is the only person being seen ---maybe if interest in demonstrated in other ways, more players will take the stage.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:22 pm 
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Eleri wrote:
if something happens in D'ni, you have to deal with it, in D'ni. Cyan isn't going to reach a Monty-Pythonesque hand from the sky and make everything all better, or even clear and understandable.

That appears to absolve and ignore the responsibility Cyan has to its subscribers. We need to be mindful of the reality that its their hand coming down from the sky to place their assets. Just as roleplayers are ultimately responsible for their characters, Cyan is responsible to the community for its decisions and implementations of story on its stage. Intervention is sometimes required. Greydragon's recent statement here is an acknowledgement of that reality.

greydragon wrote:
We will work on making changes to our "programing" to better suit the needs and wants of our "viewers".

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:29 pm 
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One of the ironic things about these recent developments, and for that matter, the whole Uru Live phenomenon to date, is that many of us who "joined the cause" because of our enthusiasm for the earlier Myst adventures are now scratching our heads and wondering what the heck is going on. The magic of the earlier adventures lay in the fact that we were presented with worlds where what we could see was only scratching the surface, and where it was up to us to use our intellect to discern story clues in the environments, sort which of those clues were relevant, assemble those elements, and eventually come up with some sort of solution. And those earlier adventures never failed to deliver. In Myst, we became something more than ourselves; we became part of a larger story, a part of history.

As matters stand now, we're again presented with incredible, beautiful new worlds, and an open invitation to dive in and make them OUR worlds. And there for a while, our efforts were rewarded; with dialogs from Yeesha, as well as journals and scattered notes, for example. So we knew we were actually doing something, and that our efforts had a purpose.

But what is that purpose now? Have we been given the keys to these worlds only to see them become backdrops to tawdry dramas like the one Sydney stirred up? Yes, we've seen a few new Ages. And yes, we know that additional Ages will be unlocked soon. But even though we've solved the mysteries of the new Ages; to the extent that we CAN, at least; we're left with more questions than answers. Yes, we cooperated to open the doors in Delin and Tsogal... but to what end? Yes, we investigated the pod portals, found how to predict their appearance, and then entered each... but WHY? For stones in our Relto? The DRC may have made these Age links available, but they're strangely silent when it comes to explaing anything about them.

My point is that we've come to expect a lot from each Myst adventure. And those expectations go way beyond just the environments we encounter! Myst Island was beautiful and peaceful, but we soon learned that it had been stained with treachery. Riven was a tropical paradise, but over all its islands hung a foreboding sense of the evil of Gehn. Uru brought us to the very Cavern of the D'ni, and gave us a hint of the grandeur that once was... but once we'd taken the Journeys of Yeesha, the well seemed to run dry.

I've been through too much in these adventures to be satisfied with "story" as presented by the likes of Sydney. I've confronted Gehn face-to-face, staring down the slavemaster as I tricked him into linking into a trap... what are Sydney's petty arguments compared with that? We may be creating the story this time, but from what I've seen so far, I'm seriously unimpressed. I keep hoping that we'll see a new releases that will contain not only Ages, but explanations; whether via monologues from Yeesha, detailed journals from the DRC, whatever.

The machinations of the DRC and their admirers and detractors don't interest me all that much. We're on the verge of restoring a lost civilization, and occasional snippets of soap opera are a poor substitute for the adventures we used to enjoy.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:51 pm 
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I'd like to reiterate a request I made, can't remember where I made it...

I would like to see how the results came in from the poll originally at this site, asking players what they wanted to see or do in Uru Live.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:17 pm 
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Quote:
BrettM: "Nick has reason, as a character, to foment conflict in the Cavern. The fact that Nick likes conflict does not mean that Cyan likes conflict, but it certainly means that stories about conflict are not out of bounds. It is Cyan's choice as to whether to introduce a conflict-loving character into the story, and his actions certainly do send the message that Cyan is more than willing to see that character's efforts bear fruit among we other characters.

Personally, I don't mind that in theory, unlike some of the other posters. However, Nick's motives for wanting dissention are not as clear to me as GD seems to find them. And Nick has certainly not given any of OUR characters a good motive to go along with his desires, unless those characters are paranoid loonies or professional trolls. The material we have been given to work with so far makes any sort of open conflict at this point in the story seem simply irrational, which doesn't feel like good story to me."

Indeed, conflict IS the heart of story, so by introducing a slightly-subversive character like Nick, it's not because Cyan wants us to all get angry at each other ;), but because they want to create conflict--not "conflict" in a bad context....just a "story" context.

As for why GD seems to understand Nick more than you do, that's because GD is a Cyanist :P Of COURSE knows more about it than we do :) If you don't understand Nick's motives at all, I guess it's because you don't have very many issues with the DRC. But those who DO were the ones that followed Sydney....and I'd like to think that by this point in this thread, we'd established that, while many of us disagreed with the ADM's motives/methods, and while the ADM stuff didn't turn out like they had hoped, calling Sydney & Co. "paranoid loonies" or "professional trolls" is perhaps going a bit too far.

I do understand Nick's motives to some extent, and perhaps I wiil do some review to see if I can understand them better. I certainly don't understand what motive he would have for wanting to see conflict between explorers.

I do, in fact, have issues with the DRC. Why did I not, then, follow Sydney? Because those issues are merely concerns and incohate suspicions at this point. There simply is not enough evidence of anything more to support flaming accusations and heated confrontation. Starting such a confrontation on the basis of nothing more than Nick's insinuations is the action of paranoid loonies or professional trolls. Even Sydney recognized this when she told Nick that she had to have something solid in hand, but she made the mistake of pressing on with the conflict after Nick's refusal to give it.

One of the differences between the NPCs and ourselves is that the NPCs are receiving direction from Cyan. Yes, they may improv around the information they are given, but the general direction is there. Our characters (whether we are role playing or just playing ourselves) have only one thing to give our improv direction: our character's natural response to the cues provided by the NPCs and other explorers.

I don't have problem with this, but I can understand why some people have a longing for firmer direction, and why they are willing to see that direction lurking in every statement by an NPC. It is quite clear from the logs Vicki posted that she thought Sydney was being coached and encouraged. GD says that Nick was always firmly IC even when Sydney or Jazz drifted OOC, and that it was their mistake to look at it from the wrong perspective. However, I note that when they did show that they were in the wrong perspective, Nick did not do anything to help set them back on course, which encouraged their mistaken belief. For example, at one point Sydney asked " is Cyan okay with this [her plan]?". Nick simply ignored the statement, rather than saying something like "Cyan? They make games. Why should I care what they're okay with? I've never met them." That might have helped restore the proper mindset.

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