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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:59 pm 
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VoiZod wrote:
prof of this is
in Phil's relto his 'full' bookself, these books all have for the most part compleated ages to go along
with them!!!


No, they do not. The only completed Ages were the ones that we saw in the previous Uru, and perhaps the pods.

VoiZod wrote:
they finished up the year with basicly the SAME message they used in Prologe, We have ran out of funding~! which lead to the 1st cancallation of URU,


You are mixing IC story with OOC. Cyan has not said they are out of funding; that was used as part of the story to give a plausible explanation for the hiatus.

VoiZod wrote:
they have to totlay rewrite the whole game incl all the old content etc.
because of the phyX engine change, which IMO is what has been cause 'This time around'
for the most part and the code not being written for all the social things Rand wants for his Grand 'Vision'
of URU Ages Byond Myst.


It is true that they had to rewrite the Ages from offline Uru to work with PhysX, and the PotS Ages had to be recoded to work with multiple players; however, they have now used up the old content that was written for the Havok physics engine.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:02 pm 
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Zardoz wrote:
I would amend that slightly: >>>>>snip by fi

Thank you for your enrichment of this concept.

I totally concur again. :wink:

[edit once to add]
Sudre wrote:
you do recall of coarse that Telly and Sharps office are INSTANCED. They are not the actual place Sharper goes when he goes there, So of coarse he's not going to notice things moved around.

Yes I recall but is that not expecting an awful lot from new, as young as 10 years old, explorers.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:40 pm 
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Not to bring up an old point, but this thread is moving fast and I had to respond.

... I didn't mean that that person should be eternally labeled as the foolish person who ruined Sharper's journal for everyone, and that we should all ostracize him from the community. I just meant that it was clearly a mistake, and I hope they realize it as such.


Justin has nothing to feel 'guilty' about or feel he made a 'mistake' by asking an honest, innocent question. Though occassionally prone to inducing conniptions, Justin's a good guy and is someone who really likes the game and its people, has actually been IN the game a lot of the time, and has made In-Cavern efforts to do things to make the game more interesting and entertaining for everyone.

If anything, from the chatlogs that Marten posted, it seems to me upon re-reading that Vormaen is more 'responsible' here as he basically drove the whole Journal-reading point home for Sharper (though I in no way 'blame' him either).

Like belford said, there's a bunch of different, more positive ways this situation, and many other situations too numerous to mention, could've turned out with some applied creativity. Explorers' sheer creativity has fueled the Cavern for a long time now by just working together and with what we had, our budgetary concerns notwithstanding (in fact, working with a negative budget).

That's the Cavern experience, and that's my experience, and if the Cyan experience is something that undermines or is opposed to that, then maybe we don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things as much as I'd always wanted to believe.

Back to the point, though. If, in fact, Justin actually did influence an obvious, integral-to-the-story, Cavern-wide change through his action, then there is just one thing I have to say to him about it -

Bravo. You've accomplished more than I ever managed to.


Btw, I agree with 90% of this thread. Guess which parts 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:55 pm 
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By the way, it wasn't just Justin. There were a lot of people that asked Sharper about his journal everytime Sharper made an appearance.

@Marten, thanks for pointing out my suggestion.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:18 am 
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I actually feel the entire thing was the fault of the people who wrote the stuff. I mean, you don't put out an IC journal, allow the players to read it, then allow the players to interact with the writer of said journal and not expect someone to say something. That simply defies reason and asks people to act outside human nature. If they had planned to use the journal to keep people up to date, they should not have allowed players to interract with him unless they were prepared to ignore such questions and have him continue to use the journal. That course of action would have broken game continuity and made the journal suspect. If he knows people read his journal and continues to use it, chances are that he only writes what he wants people to know.

So yeah, the journal is dead, how about another method to feed us info?

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Last edited by silmefea on Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:09 am 
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Well there is his other journal that got Bahroed sometime in the last four years. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:24 am 
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Thanx for starting this thread Axel. It was a good read and I think a postmortem is an excellent idea...

My subscription still has a few months left, but I also am letting it expire. These times have been way too thin for someone who appreciates the genre, but is in no way on the bleeding edge. I have found my dollar gets better value returns elsewhere.

My eye can pass over here (these forums) every few weeks to see if the status quo remains, or if new winds begin to blow and other routes are examined, etc. This has all been said before and it will all likely be said again; (yeah I watch too much BSG *wink*) so i feel participation is no longer a preferred option and seems to lead to even greater disappointments.

So, thanx for this read; it is time to slink back into the silence... Which in my case seems to be Kingdom of Loathing.

Merry Crimbo All! :D


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:30 am 
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My subscription ends soon as well, but I'm going to renew because I'm in the middle of a couple of other games on GameTap, and that way I won't have to mess with the renewal when Season 2 starts.

Jarryd wrote:
So, thanx for this read; it is time to slink back into the silence... Which in my case seems to be Kingdom of Loathing.


Yay for KoL! I just completed my first ascension recently. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:44 pm 
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First off, I wish everyone a very Happy New Year! I hope you will find friends, peace, health and the occasional dream fulfilled in the months to come.

Marten wrote:
Alright, now you've finally given me something to dig into... that is, a point with which I completely disagree. 8)


Always happy to be of service :)

Marten wrote:
A major factor in Uru's appeal to me has been that I don't have to be there daily; I do not have to worry that my friends will pressure me because they "need" me to be in the game with them at the same time. In my experience, teaming up in other MMOs is critical.


If you follow my posts above you will find that I am pointing out that precisely this isn't true anymore at all. Current MMOs do away with mandatory teamplay to a very large degree. The pressures you describe were still seen in maybe the endgame content of WoW, a reason lots of people have abandoned the title and moved on to something less demanding, especially, and this is the main thrust of my argument, the growing number of casual players that market success today is all about! This upsets the old guard of hard core players, but with the numbers being in favour of the casual crowd this is where the money, and the design is going. Look at any title of last year.

Marten wrote:
While the team aspect may sound cool at first (I'll admit, it is really fun when it works out), and may even have some potential lessons for getting along in your Real Life, the co-ordination requirement quickly becomes a liability when part of your regular team is missing. So there's a big peer pressure element involved that I don't like.


I can readily agree with that. I enjoyed involved team-play and the steep learning curve of yesterday's MMOs very much. When I found myself lacking the time required for this comitment, peer pressure and frustration set in. My point is, today's MMOs are not like that anymore, for both good and bad. Today's MMOs favour a crowd of people logging in each day for 30 minutes to an hour and still leave feeling they accomplished something and having been told a little piece of story (or if they don't care about story) having scratched off another 2 quests from the endless list of boars to kill, potions to deliver, or any other little activity/reward feedback loop they happened to go through on that day.

Marten wrote:
I don't have to schedule any part of my life around Uru! In other games, I have gone on vacation, returned, and felt hopelessly left behind. Other players that I had teamed with would have proceeded into areas beyond my ability... and they'd have no interest in helping me catch up. My own fault for not being there and contributing to the team, they'd tell me.


I know what you mean. But again, that is yesterday's approach to MMOs. Which games were you playing, out of curiosity?
Sounds like WoW, EQ or AO to me. All fine games, by the way, if you can make the comitment.

Marten wrote:
Let me contrast that with Uru. In a few spots now, you'll need assistance. For Ahnonay, you'll need to find one person willing to help. There's almost always someone in the Guild of Greeters willing to assist; I have stood there for hours, idling while busy with other tasks, and watched player after player arrive and ask for help, and receive it.


All true. But are those casual players? Are you truly? If they sit around in the game for hours idling they are not the kind of casual people I am talking about, and that the market currently gets their money from.

Let me make my point a little differently. Yes, Uru has almost no mandatory team-play. So, the comitment described above is pretty much out of the mix. Great. Check one requirement for casual appeal. However, that is just one aspect. The oother, equally important, element is that you need to be able to accomplish something meaningful in the game within the span of 30 minutes to an hour each day you chose to log in. Uru fails miserably on this account. You wouldn't even get through the initial Ages like that. A casual player would take months to make it through Kadish Tolesa, and more likely than not he wouldn't get through it at all, or would zip through it with a walkthrough. Neither approach gives him the reward he is looking for: Being entertained for an hour or so by playing the game instead of watching the latest episode of Lost (or whatever).

The fact that the hard core crowd is either not logged in or sitting around idling(!) either means those people really enjoy the social aspect of Uru (instead of the gameplay) or, more likely, that there is simply nothing else to do!

Marten wrote:
The only incident thus far where Uru has broken my expectations, where some players were "left out" because they didn't "advance quickly enough," has been Yeesha's appearance in K'veer; and as I previously mentioned, I don't think that was intentional or planned to be that way.


Whether it was planned like that or not is mere speculation on our part. However, there is simply no excuse for such lazy, horrible design. It is not fruitful to apologise for it any longer. It is also just one example of a much greater problem with Uru's design and not just a simply oversight on Cyan's part. They build the story delivery method of Uru not around their previously cherished persistent journal approach (which everyone eventually sees and can enjoy), but rather chose to make the story completely exclusive and non-persistent to those happy few who put so much time into the game (or where simply lucky!) to be in the right spot for it to happen.

I also listened to the CT podacst the other day, like some of you suggested. Great production btw! Major kudos! It only cemented my suspicions. In there Ryan was asked whether Cyan would provide more in-game content to summarise the story and keep everyone abreast of the developements. He specifically answered, that he felt this was a burden better borne by the community and that they had no plans to do so!

Now, let me say this with all clarity:

That is the most annoying, short-sighted and simply misguided approach to game design I have ever encountered.

Why? It forces the burden of keeping your players entertained on the players themselves! It removes the enjoyment of being immersed in a game, of seeing things with your own eyes, replaced by getting everything second hand. It excludes the vast majority of your players from the content.

Furthermore, this was not just a slip of the tongue by one designer. You see the same stubborness and misguided approach in the lake lighting project. Here's a communal, repeatable activity that Uru so sorely lacks (however tedious the actual gameplay may be, for that matter). And Cyan's response for the lack of reward and feedback to players engaging in the activity simply was to whip up some number, and then say 'Well, the numbers are abritrary though, they don't mean much [and here's my added interpretation to the statement] ... because we haven't figured out how it should work.'

Again, the same with the guilds. 'You need to get along. If it is not working it is your fault' [again paraphrased].

EDIT (for incorporating above posts):
Again with the Sharper journal discussion above. I am with silmefea on this one. To suggest that a player can break your content, or to assume that players will refrain from asking obvious questions is the designer closing their eyes to reality.

What is the essence of this attitude? It assumes that somehow your players are broken, instead of the game. That is the worst slap in the face and the worst misstep any designer can make.

Now, I don't want this thread to heat up beyond the boiling point, and I certainly don't want it to dissolve in bickering. I want this to be constructive. But to make any kind of progress, I think Cyan needs to let go of the entrenched position they have been in since the days of beta. Stop circling the wagons, and stop holding on to a battle that cannot be won. Please.

I often felt that Uru was Cyan's Moby expletive. They have been ever chasing that Great White Whale of their vision. With such ferocity and such obsession, that they ran out of funding before release. So much, they had to hand their fate to a publisher who didn't care about the vision. And now again with a new publisher, who might not have looked at what they were really putting their money into. And just like Ahab, they don't listen to reason, they don't really talk to us, because if we just can sail on a little more maybe we can get closer to the whale, and then maybe we can kill him after all.

At least from my corner, I can only plead: Enough! It hurts you as much as it hurts everyone else involved. Please, let it go.

I love Uru's original vision as well. I got convinced by Rand's original mission and direction. But look at where we are now. Can it be fixed? Can small, low-budget incremental fixes get us closer to the vision or will Uru just continue to sail on a trackless and increasingly bottomless ocean in this obsessive chase? The crew is abandoning ship. Even people who have spent so much more time with this than any other product cannot see the land anymore. We do it for the company we love, but it hurts to see it happening.

I think it's time we lower the sails for a moment and talk about direction.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:44 pm 
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Axel wrote:
Whether it was planned like that or not is mere speculation on our part. However, there is simply no excuse for such lazy, horrible design. It is not fruitful to apologise for it any longer. It is also just one example of a much greater problem with Uru's design and not just a simply oversight on Cyan's part. They build the story delivery method of Uru not around their previously cherished persistent journal approach (which everyone eventually sees and can enjoy), but rather chose to make the story completely exclusive and non-persistent to those happy few who put so much time into the game (or where simply lucky!) to be in the right spot for it to happen.

While I agree with everything you say in your post, let me comment on the above underlined section, which I feel conflates design and effect. The design of Cyan's delivery method has changed from one that provided static, persistent story elements (journals, recorded video messages, etc.) to one that provides dynamic, ephemeral story elements (real-time speeches, secondary information spread by explorers). From public statements and comments made by various Cyan people, this design decision seems to reflect a desire to have Uru be as "real" as possible (although why it is unreal to write journals is not obvious to me). The effect of this is as you describe, but the distinction between design and effect is important if you think of Uru not as a game but as an artistic endeavor to create a realistic environment, in which case design (or the artist's intent) is more important than effect. Now, I know that sounds bonkers, but that's the only way that Cyan's decisions make any sense to me (or else they just plain don't like us). And while I applaud them for their fealty to their artistic vision, I feel no obligation to act as a patron and subsidize something that is faithful to that vision but not very entertaining.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:45 pm 
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I have been around since the DIRT days and I am ashamed to admit that I too have fallen by the wayside :oops:

I used to log into the game every day, sometimes more than once. Now I only log on to verifiy things for my Goodies list. That is really sad. I find myself agreeing with nearly every criticism of the game that has been discussed and I am especially disheartened to find out that Sharper's journal was discontinued. I have logged on so infrequently of late that I completely missed this occurence :cry:

There was a time when I eagerly awaited new journals and spent hours reading them. New journals meant new story line and new insights into the D'ni. Sharper's journal always pointed the way to new developments and was high on my list of must dos. In my view, ALL of the storyline should be in-game and persistent in some way. Sharper's journal and the various journals appearing in-game helped provide that persistance.

One way that missed story elements could be preserved is to place a collectible dropped page in every location that the storyline progressed. As each page was collected it could be added to a Progress Journal book on your reference shelf in Relto. Each page could be numbered and appear in the appropriate place in the journal. That way you would be encouraged to explore all of D'ni to learn what happened in the past. No one would then be excluded from knowing what happened and why. Perhaps reading the pages of the book could trigger video replays of key speeches and events that only a few lucky players got to see. I would really love that 8)

For myself, I will stay the course with MO:UL for as long as it is available, but I completely understand the decission of others to let it go. Something needs to be fixed and the thoughtfull observations made in this thread will hopefully guide Cyan in its decissions about future content.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:48 pm 
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Axel wrote:
He specifically answered, that he felt this was a burden better borne by the community and that they had no plans to do so!

He indeed said that he personally felt like that, but he didn't say that Cyan as a company had no plans to do so. He did say that Cyan want to keep the live events, which I personally think is a great concept. But it was said even in this podcast and a few times by greydragon in the Cavern that Cyan has been thinking about ways to 'replay' or to inform about the story.

EDIT: For people that say that there's no place in the cavern to read about the story and such... There are KI mails that give a summary of the most important DRC-related events. It's just a shame that they are deleted after some time. It would be better if there was a separate KI folder that included an archive of all the DRC mails.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Marten wrote:
In Erik's suggestion, there is still a "harm" of sorts... and it affects all players, not just the one player. The journal would go away for a while, possibly a longer while each time an explorer committed a faux pas. (Click the link above! Read it, I regret giving a summary because it's really in more depth than I described.) However, this is a harm that "enriches the game experience" because the penalty doesn't really subtract from the game over the long term, only for a short while.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if some people disagreed with my position; I distinctly remember JWPlatt's irritation when the DRC forums went away for a while and nobody was certain if they would return.

I think from many comments above, especially belford's, it should be clear that if Cyan wanted to take a different avenue, they would have. In addition to Marten's example of moving, or removing, the journal for a time, Sharper could have begun to use his journal for political and manipulative purposes, knowing people read it and using that fact as a means to his own ends. I suspect the issue was simply a good excuse to free up some time in Cyan's backstage for other things.

Marten explained my objections to the DRC forum removal well enough that I'll quote him and RAWA below. It includes a resolution with RAWA's "post mortem," if you will. I'll further add something Marten should recall upon reading this in that I had stated I did not object to removal of IC forums - only that I objected to Cyan confusion about allowing Cate, an IC character, to reach out of the fictional realm and touch the OOC forum and PMs as well. As an extension, I'd have little OOC problem with the IC consequences Marten proposes, though I might be a little irritated at the few, or the one, who caused them.

RAWA wrote:
Marten wrote:
[JWPlatt's] point was this: Just as OOC things can have an impact within the IC world, the IC action of removing the DRC forums took away his access, OOCly, to the OOC forum here at drcsite (and also his private messages, which probably deserve to fall under the OOC category as well). And JWPlatt took objection to that. He's definitely not confusing IC and OOC here.

Ah, I understand now. A valid point, indeed. Yet another apology is in order. I seem to be having to make a lot of those lately. You (collective “you”) are correct, and I’m sorry that we didn’t think of bringing the OOC forums back seperately from the IC forums. That would have made a lot more sense.

http://forums.drcsite.org/viewtopic.php?p=31350#31350

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:45 pm 
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On the subject of Sharper's journal, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. Keep in mind I certainly don't hold any malice towards the people who mentioned to him that we've been reading his journal, but I do think it was a mistake to do so, and I don't think it was unreasonable for Cyan to expect us to not mention it to Sharper. Think about it in terms of Real Life. If we're in a community of people, and we discover someone's secret office, and read their journal in that secret office, and read about all sorts of secret stuff that person is doing behind the back of the authorities, unless we plan on ratting him out to those authorities, wouldn't we keep our sneaking-and-reading to ourselves? Teledahn was always my favorite part of the original Uru, because for me, it most closely captured the spirit of Myst and Riven. It did this in many ways, including the fact that it clearly came across as a place with secrets; we were exploring places we weren't supposed to be, reading people's personal journals, learning about hidden agendas and so forth. And thus it is perfectly logical IC to realize that it's not a good idea to mention to Sharper that you've discovered his secret office and have been reading his journal and know about all of his clandestine activities.

Again, I'm not angry at the people who spilled the beans. But I do believe it wasn't a good idea. And I also believe that Sharper's ceasing to write in his journal was a basic IC response, not a cop-out on Cyan's part. Yes, in retrospect, we've thought of other ways they could have handled it, but what's done is done. And as has been said, if nothing else, the one good thing that came out of it is that it demonstrated that individual (or small groups of) explorers CAN have a significant impact on the world of Uru. Of course, ideally Cyan should ensure that there aren't a lot of possible ways for individuals/small groups to Widely and Significantly impact the world of Uru in a Negative way, but wouldn't it be kind of a realism cop-out if there weren't ANY such possibilities? As long as decisions or actions by individuals/small groups aren't constantly depriving the entire cavern community of one thing or another, the occasional occurrence, while unfortunate, does reinforce Cyan's desire to allow us to impact the world they've given us.

Hope that made sense....

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:04 pm 
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Love the Ahab analogy and agree in many respects, but I have to correct one thing:

Axel wrote:
You see the same stubborness and misguided approach in the lake lighting project. Here's a communal, repeatable activity that Uru so sorely lacks (however tedious the actual gameplay may be, for that matter). And Cyan's response for the lack of reward and feedback to players engaging in the activity simply was to whip up some number, and then say 'Well, the numbers are abritrary though, they don't mean much [and here's my added interpretation to the statement] ... because we haven't figured out how it should work.'

I believe I am qualified to say that like the Great Zero, Cyan knows exactly how the lake project should work. But financial and schedule realities have interfered with both these and other projects. The result is the phrase we know so well: they do the best they can with what they have. I have chosen to work positively within the constraints to give it the best chance possible because that's the best we can do until things change. Some change can come from comments like yours about misdirected responsibilities and obsessively chasing the vision to the exclusion of fan (subscriber) satisfaction. That's a good message to send to Cyan.

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