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 Post subject: Damage in various ages.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:07 pm 
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Several ages have clear signs of severe damage. Remember that only 270 years have passed since the fall of D’ni. So what accounts for this?

The first and easiest to explain is Ae’gura. The damage occurred during the fall and could have been caused by a few things. The first is a natural earthquake (remember D’ni is under a volcano). The other is that the damage was caused by whatever method Veovis used to crack the cavern wall and let gas in (book of Ti’Ana). Something to investigate is which buildings were built after Deretheni and Nara were discovered and which are damaged.

Gehreesen. I simply don’t have any idea what could have caused the damage here. Also notice that the entrance building has damage but the larger one does not. Perhaps the larger building in Gehreesen is built of Deretheni and Nara.

Kadish Tolesa. The only thing I can find in reference to the damage here is a forum post on dpwr.net that said the Prima strategy guide states that Kadish made an error in writing the age and the trees grow so fast that it is causing structural damage to the age.

Er’Cana. Here sections of the walkway are missing completely (not just rusted off). Some have suggested a tornado.

I would have to say that the stone structures with damage must not have been made of Deretheni or Nara.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:22 pm 
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My pet theory for Gahreesen is that it was hit by Veovis and Ae'geras' people during the fall either to steal something or to prevent the Maintainers from reacting immediately to the crisis in D'ni.

All the damage is just way too consistent and contained to be anything but deliberate.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:26 am 
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Shorah westar and welcome!

You pose some *very* interesting questions! :)

I agree, the Tolesa damage looks more natural, rather like the way concrete buckles from tree roots. The other instances you mention seem to fit with Cal's theory, that the damage was deliberate and done by the Ae'garis/Veovis crowd.

(BTW, do we know anything about what happened to them afterward? BOT makes it pretty clear that as a group, they were interested in preserving their own lives, after all. And yes, we do know that Ae'garis and Veovis both died, but what about their followers?)

Gahreesen looks to me like they were after at least two things. They rifled through only some of the books in the holding area, so I am thinking they were after something specific and thus stopped when they found it. And the dramatic damage we see farther on looks like they were heading exactly where we ourselves had to go, to the middle floor control room. Access there obviously was highly restricted (and I still am not clear how the Maintainers got in there since they obviously couldn't link there). The intruders blew open several walls in order to bypass the security doorways, blew a hole into the flooring in one place, the ceiling in another place, and an outer wall on the middle floor. I am guessing that the security doors must be made of Nara and so the stone was easier for them to break through. I'm not sure exactly what they were after in the control room, but can only guess that the damaged and powered down condition we find when we first arrive is how they left it when they got what they were after. It looks to me as though we must follow in their exact footsteps to reach the control room.

It seems to me the damage in Er'cana was aimed at stopping the pellet production. We don't know where the second set of harvester rails goes, but the second harvester is either destroyed or just trapped on the other side of the broken rails. It looks to me like that set of tracks probably went to the fields where they harvested the grain used to make the pellets. All of which makes it appear that they wanted to destroy not only the D'ni but the Cavern lake as well. We know the algae got very sick after the poison gas, and even after years of feeding pellets into the lake (after repairing the Er'cana pellet machinery), we still are seeing little change, which makes it seem to me as though the algae would probably have been completely dead by now if not for our presence in the Cavern. RAWA has indicated that feeding the lake does indeed make a difference but that the algae was in extremely bad shape when we arrived down below. So my theory is that it had been dying a slow and steady death ever since the original mass die off. Disabling the Er'cana works would ensure any surviving D'ni would be unable to stop the extinction of the algae.

Hmm, lots of food for further thought... (I think I see another research project on my horizon!! :D )

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:15 am 
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Well, bear in mind that, according to Yeesha, Gahreesen dates back to the time of King Kerath... who was coronated in the D'ni year of 6731.

I believe that converts to the surface year of 925 BC.

It's also constantly in motion, by design...spinning in the current of the water below it... that could have put stress on the stone over so much time-- it might occasionally get stuck and the gears begin pressing on each other, etc.... putting massive stress on the structure and causing some weak points here and there... spots which eventually gave way after the fall.

And Er'cana --- well, there's one point where a boulder has fallen onto one of the walkways. and is still visible -- it is a fairly rocky Age, and the factory is surrounded by hills.. maybe a few rockslides knocked out the walkways & the maglev track -- and then with walkways missing, someone cut away part of the grating in the pipeline in order to get access into the factory.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Calumon and Ainia your thoughts on the attack of the first building in Gehreesen makes sense. The damage is in areas related to linking or power generation. An earthquake would have damaged both buildings. It does make sense to attack the maintainers as they have the suits that would prevent some people from dying for the gas or virus they released.

For Er'cana I thought pellets weren't produced here before Kadish started to prove he was the Grower. Before that it was simply a grain producing age. The damage here seems more random and natural - maybe tornados, earthquakes, rockslides etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:26 pm 
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HarveyMidnight wrote:
Well, bear in mind that, according to Yeesha, Gahreesen dates back to the time of King Kerath... who was coronated in the D'ni year of 6731.


You're thinking of the Guild Hall. Gahreesen was in 8500 DE. Long after Kerath.

Ainia wrote:
Gahreesen looks to me like they were after at least two things. They rifled through only some of the books in the holding area, so I am thinking they were after something specific and thus stopped when they found it. And the dramatic damage we see farther on looks like they were heading exactly where we ourselves had to go, to the middle floor control room. Access there obviously was highly restricted (and I still am not clear how the Maintainers got in there since they obviously couldn't link there). The intruders blew open several walls in order to bypass the security doorways, blew a hole into the flooring in one place, the ceiling in another place, and an outer wall on the middle floor.


The damage done to this age was not done by any one person or group. Gahreesen's documentation makes it very clear, that a bomb wasn't going to get anyone anywhere within Gahreesen. Even with all the damage it's taken the age is structurally one of the best buildings around. The damage done to Gahreesen is a result of physics. Since Gahreesen constantly rotates it's always under stress from it's movement. With the majority of it's damage located at it's middle floor, it's center of gravity. After 243 years of constant movement without any maintenance to the structure to repair cracks and stresses caused by this movement, the damage would be about consistent with what it is now.

In fact, most if not all of the ages would fall into this category. Remember there's a 243 gap from when D'ni and it's ages were no longer habituated till the discovery of D'ni in 1987. So in all that time no one was around to clean up ages, repair machinery, patch mortar and stone etc. The elements and nature had 240 years to do damage without people around to fix that damage.

I'd suggest watching this video and others like it to get an idea of what would happen to any world with man made structures that suddenly became inhabitable. The video documents some of what would happen to earth between 150-300 years after people. The show itself is a humbling to say the least, so I'd suggest to everyone to check it out if you ever have the chance.

Granted, Gahreesen is built much better than our own human buildings, but, the idea that it and other D'ni built areas like it are not subject to the same laws that govern our own buildings is a fallacy. With no one their to maintain them, D'ni's structures would have eventually collapsed just like our own would. It was the human discovery of D'ni that saved it from fading away into oblivion after it's fall.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:50 pm 
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I suppose it's possible for Gahreesen 1 to have been collapsing internally on its own, but that then raises the question as to what caused all the burn marks on the toppled tower on the roof, and why Building 2 doesn't have any observable damage to it at all?

But the idea of a staged attack shouldn't be ruled out entirely. After all, where *were* the Maintainers during the Fall? Why weren't they trying to stop Veovis' plan? Surely there must have been maintainers guarding the ventilation systems to prevent such a thing? And we see no mention of the Maintainers searching D'ni for survivors when Veovis and Ae'geras are linking the bodies into the various ages.

*Shrugs* But that's just my take on it.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Calumon wrote:
I suppose it's possible for Gahreesen 1 to have been collapsing internally on its own, but that then raises the question as to what caused all the burn marks on the toppled tower on the roof, and why Building 2 doesn't have any observable damage to it at all?


I wouldn't go so far as to say it collapsed internally on it's own. I think the inertia of the buildings' movements caused the stress cracks that appear throughout the two buildings. Then, possibly an earthquake caused the internal damage to building 1. Gahreesen's entrance building was built into the rock unlike the main building. I'd speculate that any earthquake that Gahreesen would undergo, building one would take the brunt of the damage seeing as the shifting of the ground would be pulling and pushing on the internal walls of building 1, whereas the damage to building 2 would be felt more at it's base which, judging from just a first glance at it is built with a small base that then juts outward and back inward the father up you go, making the center bigger and the top and the base smaller. However the base juts outwards a bit again with small "legs" supporting the structure around it's perimeter rather than straight walls going down into the rock.

As for the collapsed tower. The towers are just a type of rock, they're not walls of any kind, just ornamental structures built of single pieces of stone. With no damage to the outsides of them, it's pretty clear that an explosive was not used to take them down. They'd have external damage done to them if that was the case. Instead it looks like it simply cracked internally and slid off at an angle.

[Reveal] Spoiler: 3d Art
The burn marks, are a result of vertex coloring to give the illusion of shadow and depth. If you notice, as the tower rotates into the light, and the broken one lights up brighter, even these areas tend to lighten a bit. More than likely the modeler responsible for this area, painted this are to give it depth, like how the corners on the other towers and this one are painted black to indicate shade and where a corner is. That's just speculation of course. However, the way it's shaved off and the lack of external damage to the tower indicate it's unlikely a bomb was used there. And if someone drilled into the stone block and placed a bomb inside, the result would be it splitting outwards splitting rather than shaving.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:51 pm 
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I agree that whatever caused the damage to Gahreesen, it wasn't any kind of explosive device as we think of it. The D'ni were too advanced for simple explosives. Probably a laser cutter or a sound device of some kind, if it were a direct attack, maybe something similar to what Sirrus stumbled onto on Spire?

[Reveal] Spoiler:
At any rate though, It's just a theory. We can't be sure about any of the damage caused in the ages during the time since the fall, nobody was there. We can only guess and try to dig deeper into the story that Cyan's presented us, as they intended.

Layers upon layers of story telling. Who knows what the bottom layer is? Was it just an earthquake in Gahreesen? Or was there something more to it? Why did Yeesha choose Gahreesen in particular for that Journey age? So many questions, so little answers. ^_^;


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Both for the main island and Gehreesen the choice comes down to natural disasters (earthquakes, etc) vs Veovis and company destroying during the fall. I think the answer depends on what type of stone was used to build or coat each building. If it is was Deretheni or especially Nara there is no way even an earthquake would cause that much damage.

The main island seems to have hit and miss damage. The library, originally built before these types of stones were invented, has only minor damage itself (though it is more extensive outside). Yet the Kahlo Pub experienced serious damage. Perhaps the island had a combination of both intentional destruction and earthquakes.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:00 pm 
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westar wrote:
Both for the main island and Gehreesen the choice comes down to natural disasters (earthquakes, etc) vs Veovis and company destroying during the fall. I think the answer depends on what type of stone was used to build or coat each building. If it is was Deretheni or especially Nara there is no way even an earthquake would cause that much damage.

The main island seems to have hit and miss damage. The library, originally built before these types of stones were invented, has only minor damage itself (though it is more extensive outside). Yet the Kahlo Pub experienced serious damage. Perhaps the island had a combination of both intentional destruction and earthquakes.


I admit, It's been a bit since I've read the Book of Tiana fully. I occasionally break it out for reassurance that I'm remembering a particular topic correctly, so I'd have to do the same to remember some of the intentional damage Veovis and his cohort's did during the Fall.

However on the subject of Nara and Deretheni. Neither was used to construct the buildings. Nara was used to construct locks, and to shore up tunnels like in Descent. I doubt buildings however were coated in Nara. It was use mostly as an added protection to areas that were thought to need it. Deretheni's only mentioned use was in the construction of Maintainer Suits. Not for buildings.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:12 pm 
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But why wouldn't the Maintainers wish to make their buildings as strong as possible? The Maintainers were all about keeping things safe and secure. Look at all the trouble they went into building Gahreesen- an entire age built around rotating buildings! If I were a Maintainer, I'd certainly want to have my buildings reinforced with the latest and greatest of Super-Strong Materials. Better safe than sorry, as has been said.

If Gahreesen WERE attacked, be it internally (Say, if the prisoners decided to make a break from building 2) or externally (Veovis+Company), that's something I'm sure that the Maintainers DID worry about.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:33 am 
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We can't rule out internal betrayal of the Maintainers. They could have had members who were sympathetic to the cause of D'ni purity. Very likely in fact considering their job was to protect D'ni from outside dangers.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:46 pm 
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ventris wrote:
We can't rule out internal betrayal of the Maintainers. They could have had members who were sympathetic to the cause of D'ni purity. Very likely in fact considering their job was to protect D'ni from outside dangers.


That is an idea, right there. If it wasn't an external break in, perhaps someone shut down the power from the inside, sealing themselves into the power room? If the Maintainers had to break through their own fortress in order to get control back, that would be a very good way to keep them out of the picture.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:28 pm 
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angry off Bah'ro make the most sense to me.


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