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 Post subject: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:12 am 
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I, personally have no issues with the bots, however, someone asked me yesterday, after receiving the bot numbers, how he was able to acheive the Ercana ring without going to the Watchers Pub? And then going to the Cleft via the bot.. getting both the bird page and the firepit page..should the extras not be turned off in Magic ages> I'm assuming there are other areas that can be accessible because of this oversight..?

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:18 am 
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As there are no ranks etc. in this game, there will be only one person suffering if you cheat when solving the puzzles: yourself. IMHO every person should decide for himself.

I don't think it's possible to make everything "fool proof". Of course you can remove all Relto Pages from fun ages, but how can you make sure that a newbie won't be invited into another players age, where the puzzles are already solved?!

Noone ends up in a fun age by accident. You need to know the bots KI#, need to send them at least one command to go there. That means there must be another player involved first, who tells you about those things.
I know there are some players that spam every newbie with the bots KI#: without giving any explanation, without encouraging to solve the game by themselves first, without telling them where to find the dos and don'ts concerning the fun ages, and most important: without telling them that it's not part of the regular game.
Maybe that's the real problem. But it's up to all of us to solve that one.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:16 pm 
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Charura wrote:
And then going to the Cleft via the bot.. getting both the bird page and the firepit page..


This explorer should revise their "war plan" next time they visit the Cleft for the 1st time... You can take up to 3 out of 5 pages in Cleft on your initial visit :?

I'm in accordance with debeh on the: "if you cheat then you're only hurting one person: yourself". Cheating is a personal choice in URU and you must live with the consequences whether the bots are available or not.

Thus said, it does not imply always negative consequences...hmm I heard stories... :lol: :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Location: Belgium(Fr)
I'm really happy you have no issues with the bots Charura :D
As explained Debeh and Annabelle, everyone is free to link or not robots and to use or not the magic commands. It is their choice, not the bots.
Bots are here to offer new possibilities for players. If they want to use to end an age of magical way, that is their choice, not an obligation!

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:39 pm 
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I have a suggestion. It is only a suggestion, I am not asking for this to be done, only for it to be considered... And the bot maintainers can decide its merits.

I recall that Cyan's hope for fan ages and distributed server support included a bit of OOC information to pop up. As part of Cyan's solution, players would be told before linking that they are going into non-Cyan content.

If we are concerned about players being told to use the bots without being told that the bots are not part of the "normal" game experience, could the bots perhaps give new users a little disclaimer, that the player would have to agree to (and then be put on an "authorized" list) before the player can use the bots?

That is how I have seen similar things done in other social games where area owners ask players entering to agree to a code of conduct or other terms of use.

Just an idea. No clue how feasible this is, or if it would be considered worse by some than the current situation.

Myself: I have no problem with the bots and generally agree that using bots to obtain rewards without solving puzzles only affects the gameplay experience of the persons who do that. The question was raised, "what about players who do not realize they are 'cheating'?" (I hesitate to even call it that, hence he quotes. It is just playing differently, since it harms no-one else.) And so my suggestion is aimed at that.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:29 am 
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Marten wrote:

If we are concerned about players being told to use the bots without being told that the bots are not part of the "normal" game experience, could the bots perhaps give new users a little disclaimer, that the player would have to agree to (and then be put on an "authorized" list) before the player can use the bots?



I really thank you for your suggestion Marten.
It is possible to do this: a list of players who agree to sign a warning message sent by the robot the first time they want to link to it.


I already use another system to allow a player to move himself a robot from one age to another.
How ?
To use this command, the player must become a member of Magicbot neighborhood, by the "normal" way. So, he must first ask another member to become a member in turn.
That other Member asks him about his motivations. So he makes that by ​​his own initiative and with the agreement of another member.
Then he must remove its current book of neighborhood and join with the other member, the district MagicBot to become a member of this neighborhood, as usually happens.

We can imagine that to use all magic commands, the player must be a member of MagicBot hood and, if that's not enough, that the payer must first agree with a warning message that he will accept in the forum "Uru MagicWorlds".
I remind you that this forum exists for several months and is intended to explain every magic age. Therefore, the players know what to expect when they connect to a robot.
It is a multilingual forum. Here is the link: http://magicworlds.actifforum.com/

But frankly, this does unnecessarily complicate things? Especially as I remember, no one is forcing anyone to use the magic command robots. Everyone does it on his own initiative without impairing the normal course of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:06 pm 
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Wow! This is what happens when I jump into a topic without researching it more, first. I had no idea that you already had this system in place. It sounds like you put a lot of thought into ensuring that players would know what they are getting into, before allowing them to get into it. :) I applaud that!

I'm probably not the best person to ask about if it's the right level of caution vs. complexity. But here are my thoughts, briefly:

Your solution sounds more foolproof than the suggestion I made, but I don't know if a solution needs to be foolproof in this case. The level of "harm" that a person can do to themselves is very limited, even if they ignore all disclaimers and agree blindly without understanding what they're agreeing to. In the worst case, if a user's gameplay experience is accidentally shortened by skipping puzzles, they can always delete their avatar and start over.

What do others think?

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:01 pm 
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From talking with newcomers to the game, I've found that a LOT of them - maybe MOST of them - walk in with no idea that there is a storyline to URU.
Quite a few have never played a MYST game, have never heard of the D'ni, know nothing of the vast backstory.

I know this opinion won't be popular at all, and is probably no longer even practical....but:
If I had my druthers, new players would have to complete the four (4.5) Prime Ages before they could even gain access to fan-created Ages, to "magic" zones, etc.
I really feel that people should at least get the basic understanding of the place before being overwhelmed by the mishmosh of (sometimes-fascinating but sometimes-irrelevant) information that has been overlaid atop Cyan's creation.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:49 am 
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Wouldn't it be nice if players could have access to (translated) copies of Catherine's journals?

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:37 am 
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Or at least something like Yeesha's journals from Myst V. They did a pretty good job summarizing the series.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:00 am 
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???

(Vector, apparently, you have not yet discovered my **Relto library**!!)

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:04 am 
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Emor D'ni Lap wrote:
Quite a few have never played a MYST game, have never heard of the D'ni, know nothing of the vast backstory.


I never read any of the URU backstory before playing URU. I bought the game early on in 2003-2004 got to play it in early 2008, got hooked, been enthusiast & at the same time feared to go online, learned that Gametap MOUL was cancelled, waited 2 years and all of the sudden learned that MOULa was newly born (February 2010) (it was in early March 2010).

Being able to go anywhere was what drove me in this universe and still is what keeps me there. I stopped playing at the Myst series as I found it dull everytime I went back; being in 1st pers & trapped in point & click system I had more freedom in URU.

This is what makes me a bit "weird" if you want. I will be really into playing a game let's say URU for a while being there for days, for weeks and, all of the sudden, I will move away without any difficulties. If someone comes to my house, they won't even know I'm attracted to URU. There's no apparent signs whatsoever. Even on my PCs. Sure if they dig into my folders they will find URU stuff but it won't be more than what they will find if they dig into my music folders or my movies folders or my pictures folders or whatever else.

It always amazes me in some way to see or meet people that get so hooked to something that they want to learn everything and create related stuff around it, like trekkies or the fans of Star Wars. I'm not at all laughing or judging, this is not the way I am. I'm only amazed. I find it fantastic because, I'm not like that at all. I'm really overly curious but not at all drag in any backstories. So with that said... it could be hard to say: "if you want to enter this community, you need to know all the backstory and stuff before playing the game" I would run away if it was the case :lol: :wink:

I don't judge your comment, I'm only stating a personal opinion here :D


Emor D'ni Lap wrote:
I know this opinion won't be popular at all, and is probably no longer even practical....but:
If I had my druthers, new players would have to complete the four (4.5) Prime Ages before they could even gain access to fan-created Ages, to "magic" zones, etc.
I really feel that people should at least get the basic understanding of the place before being overwhelmed by the mishmosh of (sometimes-fascinating but sometimes-irrelevant) information that has been overlaid atop Cyan's creation.


It always depends on each individual preferences. Some here are fascinated by the story, some by the design, some by the gameplay (I would include myself in here), some by the puzzles, etc.

I'm not going against your thoughts, I'm really just wondering if it would be
1st) feasible and...
2nd) helpful to the most.

If there have been, let's say, 25,000 individual explorers in the history of URU that have reached the Cavern, there are 25,000 ways of seeing URU.

A friend of mine the other day told me something like: "I really love this game, the textures are wonderful!" I said to myself: "that's funny. He keeps repeating me this over and over" Well... that's something important for him.

Maybe some explorers might think of me: "Well, she cannot stand on the ground like others...she always has to climb somewhere!!!" Yeah because that's something important for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:46 am 
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Location: Belgium(Fr)
Today is the celebration of the first anniversary of my robots : MagicBot and MimiBot.
As you know, twentieth magic age will be unveiled for the occasion.

MagicBot and MimiBot will welcome their friends at 13 KI TIME in their Relto.

Then all players will be teleport to the new magic age.
They will discover the birth, small-to-small this new magical age.

Then, a big party will be organized with D.J. Gay Hood :)

I hope see you all for this special event:
History lovers D'ni, love solving puzzles, Skydivers, Chatters or fans of bots! All united, hand in hand, to celebrate both this first anniversary, but also the twentieth MYST, I waiting for you!

/lean left-right

Hugs !

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:31 am 
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There are some nice ideas here.

Making them compleat the core part of the game before exploring the bots. Kind of like an easter egg that gets unlocked half way through. I love that idea but i think many would take issue. It would prevent you from playing soccer in Minkata or Ahnonay because you didn't finish one of the other ages. It could stop you from joining Zeke's tour cause you are still working on an age that is not even being explored that night.
Should it be their choice?

So this is what I implemented last night.
You PM me a command. But I have never meet you before so I reply with this warning message...
Quote:
'''*** Warning *** Using my chat commands or exploring any of my ages can and will spoil your game. I will give away answers and basically ruin your ability to play the game how it was originally intended. Things are only new once. If you see them here, they will not be new when you find them yourself. So I highly recommend completing your game before you meet me. If you have already completed the game or simply don't care about spoilers. Private message me the word "register" without the quotes, and I will enable the use of the chat commands.'''
What do you think? Does it help? Is there a better way?
I know I don't write very well so if anyone want to reword that for me feel free. I will not be offended.

PS:
I wanted to quote from what debeh posted above but what could i cut out?! I'll wrap it in a spoiler. Its worth reading a second time.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
debeh wrote:
As there are no ranks etc. in this game, there will be only one person suffering if you cheat when solving the puzzles: yourself. IMHO every person should decide for himself.

I don't think it's possible to make everything "fool proof". Of course you can remove all Relto Pages from fun ages, but how can you make sure that a newbie won't be invited into another players age, where the puzzles are already solved?!

Noone ends up in a fun age by accident. You need to know the bots KI#, need to send them at least one command to go there. That means there must be another player involved first, who tells you about those things.
I know there are some players that spam every newbie with the bots KI#: without giving any explanation, without encouraging to solve the game by themselves first, without telling them where to find the dos and don'ts concerning the fun ages, and most important: without telling them that it's not part of the regular game.
Maybe that's the real problem. But it's up to all of us to solve that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bots
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:50 pm 
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I like the idea of an advisory before accessing the bots but to me this one seems overly stern. Perhaps saying that it "can spoil the game for you if you wish to experience the game as originally intended" rather then "can and will spoil the game" The wording as written would have made me afraid to go to the magic ages at all even for the cavern tours as it sounds like it might actually break my game somehow. Perhaps a certain level of immersiveness may be harmed for certain people by going to the magic ages but I cannot feel that my game has been irretrievably ruined and destroyed by visiting them.

To some degree "original intent" is a slippery concept (I don't know about anywhere else but in the United Sates this is a very commonly argued topic). Do we spoil the "original intent" every time we do a door run for a newcomer without making them figure out how to get and use the code and that they need to find a team of helpers? Strict constructionists would, and probably do, say yes as the person has not solved the puzzle themselves. The same might be said about other information often given to newcomers, for instance how to program your ki for the various nexus stations in Aegura. Perhaps, while we are warning people, the link to Ae'gura should have have a warning as well (and I do not mean that entirely facetiously). Since it has become the social hub of the cavern the casual conversation is necessarily full of what a strict constructionist would call spoilers despite the care generally used when speaking directly to known newcomers. On the other hand the "original intent" included having a community of players who would help each other out, pass on information and create new ways to play with the world together. The original framers of the game have given allowance to the bots as a fun and don't forget useful, addition to the game.

I think the advisory should make the explorer consider for a moment what their particular preference for experiencing the game is. If they dislike any reminder that they are playing a game (Oh! it just occurred to me, is this the old argument of IC vs. OOC in another form?) or want to try to solve the puzzles without any hints from outside then they should not use the magic ages until they wish to experience the game in a different way.

post edited a number of times for clarity immediately after posting because the sentences always look different somehow when posted

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