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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:07 pm 
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ventris wrote:
It seems to me that both those books and the Great Zero books must not have been meant to be permanently out in the hoods because once everyone has their KI set up they would only have been needed occasionally.


I've always had a problem with the Great Zero book as it links to a different part of the same age, contradicting very well established lore. The best answer I've been able to come up with is that it was placed there by Yeesha.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:25 pm 
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The only problem there is that it doesn't explain the DRC notebook in that room.

Are we certain it's not possible to link within an Age, or just forbidden, and that the GZ is an exception due to its significance?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Well you can get to that room from the Nexus (or at least you could from the offline version)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:57 pm 
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TOOO wrote:
Are we certain it's not possible to link within an Age

Yes.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:30 am 
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When the Great Zero was first made available to explorers in Prologue, it was only available via the Nexus. It wasn't until MOUL that the book leading to the Great Zero antechamber was placed in the neighborhoods.

If I remember correctly, the books were placed by the DRC. It's also one of the most open (and flagrant) displays of their acceptance of Yeesha-Magic.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:22 am 
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You can relto to your relto from your relto. This is linking within an age.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Yes, but Relto is different. That was written by Yeesha using her *special grower powers,* which only she has. Nowhere else does the linking book travel with you or allows you to link within the age.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:13 pm 
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Vector Cramp wrote:
Yes, but Relto is different. That was written by Yeesha using her *special grower powers,* which only she has. Nowhere else does the linking book travel with you or allows you to link within the age.


But the question, tho, is whether her powers are supernatural... meaning she is capable of doing the impossible. I am of the belief that Yeesha has extraordinary skill as a writer & she is capable of 'breaking' the many D'ni laws, tho not because she is supernatural but because she is so disciplined and so skilled in her writing, that she is capable of circumventing established taboos, and accomplishing things that were believed by the D'ni to be impossible, simply because they never managed to do those things.

Bottom line--- if it were truly IMPOSSIBLE then Yeesha couldn't do it. If she can do it.. then however unlikely or difficult, it must at least be possible.


MY thinking is that it is possible to link to different points within the same Age, but there might be exceptionally high risks involved; or else, being able to create a linking book that works within the same Age is just so difficult that no D'ni writer had accomplished it before the Fall.


Same with the Relto book. I've always believed there was some perfectly natural process that has 'dis-entangled' the Relto books, and now they move with us when we link--- since the book is primarily made up of symbols rather than D'ni writing, I wonder if Yeesha learned the trick of doing this from the Bahro.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:15 am 
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Shorah everyone,

Hmm, things are getting interesting here... but also probably unresolvable (though it's certainly fascinating to discuss and speculate :)). RAWA has made it clear that only Yeesha is able to create these exceptional types of links.

The implication from the various storylines we have (the three books and End of Ages) is that Yeesha picked up a healthy dose of non-traditional D'ni thinking and techniques from both of her parents (who in turn were heavily influenced by both Anna/Ti'ana and Gehn). Out of these four generations, only Yeesha was ever taught by a traditional D'ni Writer (Calam), but well after she had blossomed into a Writer herself. (One could argue that Ti'ana also was taught by a D'ni, Aitrus, though how traditional that teaching was, we can only guess--Aitrus was already bucking D'ni tradition by teaching the Art not only a woman but to a non-D'ni.)

End of Ages in particular tells us that "Yeesha Magic" is a legacy of her time with the Bahro and is connected to the Tablet itself:
Yeesha, in her End of Ages journal 10 wrote:
Such power they have, and yet they serve. They treated me with kindness, and I learned from them. They respected what I was becoming. With them I learned new laws, new rules, and new powers. I used the power to care for a tree to come, and the Tablet allowed me to grow beyond Ti'ana, beyond Father and Mother, beyond D'ni, beyond Calam.

I expect it is now impossible for anyone other than Yeesha (and the Bahro themselves) to "break" the D'ni rules of writing in such a way simply because the Tablet is no longer available as a tool. Yeesha seems to have surpassed traditional D'ni Writing in three phases, firstly through her parents, next through Calam, and finally through the Bahro and Tablet. We don't really know exactly what constitutes Yeesha's earlier unusual talent as a non-traditional Writer (before she met Calam), what exactly changed as she and Calam learned from each other, and what exactly constituted the Bahro "laws, rules and powers" that skyrocketed her into the Grower. The only examples we have of Yeesha's Writing was done well after these three phases had been completed.

Sharper's comments about Yeesha after he completed her journeys imply that we have seen only a tiny bit of what she is capable of Writing:
Malfhok, Carl Palmner and DimensionTravelerCalum, in the Heritage Documents wrote:
"There is so much more to linking than I ever thought." Sharper said. "She has power."

"You mean the linking stones?" an explorer, Dusante, asked.

"All of it." Sharper replied. "The book. The age. The Stones. The Cloths." He summarized with this: "The DRC's Linking books are child's play."

Keep in mind that the DRC Linking books Sharper is talking about were D'ni relics that the DRC had discovered and restored (i.e. they were Written by D'ni).

My takeaway from RAWA's commentary (linked earlier) is that these questions are intended to remain mysteries that we are free to speculate about and discuss, but they will remain mysteries to us for the foreseeable future. Particularly since it seems we know such a small part of the Bahro story and have seen only preliminary examples of Yeesha's Writing ability, I doubt I would be able to cobble together a theory that could hold up against later revelations (should RAWA et al. ever decide to reveal more).

Anyhoo, all of this is to sprinkle more food for thought into this very interesting conversation! Have fun!! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:00 am 
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Yet this doesn't rule out Clarke's Third Law: if the Art is technology (and I think it is), then Yeesha Magic is more advanced technology. In other words, I think Yeesha and the bahro can pinpoint 'coordinates' in the Tree of Possibilities with finer 'resolution' than the D'ni could. Or, the D'ni wrote in Java, Yeesha writes in Assembly.
Centuries-old taboos, and maybe a progressively more rigid society, may have halted any further (will of) progress in D'ni understanding of the linking process.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:20 pm 
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Quote:
RAWA has made it clear that only Yeesha is able to create these exceptional types of links.


OOC response:The link you provided only indicates fan-writers are not allowed, according to Cyan's rules, to create these exceptional types of links. That's not the same thing as saying its impossible, in the canon, for other writers.

korovev wrote:
Clarke's Third Law: if the Art is technology (and I think it is), then Yeesha Magic is more advanced technology.


I like that idea.

Quote:
Centuries-old taboos, and maybe a progressively more rigid society, may have halted any further (will of) progress in D'ni understanding of the linking process.


Not to mention a healthy dose of D'ni pride-- the D'ni as a society would never have believed "inferior" bookworlders like the Bahro, Ti'ana & Catherine, etc, could teach them anything that would improve or advance the Art.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Yeesha learned more than a new way to write a link, create a cloth, or stone. She got to a place where she could link without any device. She could link from just the image in her mind. So this at least went beyond writing technology. The problem is we don't know how Yeesha learned new things through the Bahro and Tablet. Her learning from these weren't the typical teaching of other people. Perhaps she learned how to harnesh certain forces.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Esher could link at will using the skin of a bahro; therefore, however they do it, it's a physical process. Gehn's books could be made to work with very physical power. It's not necessarily beyond writing technology, only beyond the level we're familiar with.

We have some possible hints on how she links: the mark on Esher's bahro skin and Yeesha's tattoos (maybe also her fixation for murals). The marks (gahrohevtee?) seems more important than the ink (even Gehn's ink works a bit), and the ink seems more important than the medium.

(Aren't we a little OT?)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Just a little.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:01 am 
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Getting back on topic-

Simpson next passes the elevator which, when he found it and still today, can only be called from the roof. He does not know for sure if this was the case originally but he theorizes that separate up elevator and down elevators would add to security. I'm not sure how this would help in a case of serious attack. All Simpson's protestations of how impregnable the building is start to sound suspicious from an OOC perspective.

Following Simpson to the book locker room we pass through the latched open hallway door which has the mottled texture on the threshold. I have noticed that the thickness of the walls on which the doors are hung varies. Generally speaking the walls between the rooms are much thicker (as measured by looking at the space between the layers of doors) than the walls of the hallway, say 2-3 feet rather than a foot or less. A recent experiment showed that two people can hold two of the hallway doors open at the same time. Whether this was true of the two entry doors we can't know.

Entering the locker room (noting the mottled threshold) we begin get to areas that really open up questions about D'ni before and possibly during the fall. Simpson is told by the DRC that the state he finds Gahreesen in is not the original set up of the rooms. Records they found indicated that when the KIs started being handed out the Maintainers made changes to the building. Presumably this was just to the interior fittings of the rooms rather than the addition of more security doors and the like? Simpson does not go into detail so I have poked around, talked to others about what they think and tried to imagine what might have been altered.

The D'ni of the novels did not generally carry around linking books. Not even the upper classes. Are we to conclude that the D'ni that inhabited our city did so? And so casually that facilities were provided to hold the books for visitors to the age to reclaim? If the cages did hold ink sniffing bugs which, we only have Simpson's guess on, what were the consequences when they sniffed out a book? Could a guildmaster check the pocket of his robe and say "Bigod! I did forget I was carrying this book around to return to a friend"? If there were not ink sniffing bugs what was in the cages and why the window to the waiting area? If we go by the novels the Maintainers were dealing with terrorists using linking books a few months before the fall and would be expected to be cautious about people carrying them about. Would they have expected people to hand in and retrieve the books? What was the locker room for before they started receiving a stream of people coming to get KIs?

What ever Simpson saw in the locker room caused him to conclude it was for keeping linking books. The lockers are built into the walls and the shelves seem sized as book shelves. I have trouble seeing them as holding any bulky equipment. D'lago has suggested that maybe the room held books that the maintainers and their visitors used to travel to other ages. Perhaps to other maintainer facilities. The books could have been slid out on the counter for the travelers to use. I find it hard to believe that the books we see there now are meant to be linking books as the DRC did not leave stacks of them about. Come to think of it they did not leave much of anything about. Except the cones of course. So what is with the books in the lockers? Yeesha and the bahro have set a linking stone here. What was the connection we are supposed to make between the hood balcony and this area?

Finally, why were the marker lights and helmet being held here? Simpson thought they looked out of place which I can see, one would expect them to have storage designed for them. I have already dismissed the the idea of a display. Aside from being silly to lead people through a secure room unnecessarily the display would be notably unimpressive. If the room did hold books to other facilities perhaps the equipment was being temporarily held for pick up. Or if the building was still in use after the damage was done to it perhaps they were keeping things where ever they could.

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Last edited by ventris on Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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