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Bring Back The Guilds?
Yes. 30%  30%  [ 59 ]
No 22%  22%  [ 43 ]
What Guilds Are You Talking About? 7%  7%  [ 13 ]
Only Some That Could Help People: (ex-The Writers, Linguists, Messengers) 24%  24%  [ 47 ]
Start Modern Guilds Only (Greeters etc.) 16%  16%  [ 32 ]
Total votes : 194
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:52 am 
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:mrgreen: My sentiments exactly Nordor. I just wish the cons would realise the damage they are causing to the survival of Uru Live. If we do end up with a hierarchy of elitist Guild Masters and there blinkered sheep – I’m certain that many that logged on to simply enjoy an air of previous Myst and Uru mystique will leave in droves.

Think about it… modern day explorers using a gateway to other worlds singly or in groups by choice would not rake up an alien past history and try and emulate their culture – to me it rings of sacrilege. Resurrection of the D’ni and the D’ni culture should be left to the D’ni. By all means we can assist – and the whole concept of re-building their civilisation may evolve as the main goal – but let us recognise that it can only be a true D’ni who dons the embroidered cloak.

As I have said in previous posts – all new Explorers to Uru Live should be on the same level footing as ‘experienced’ Explorer’s – being confronted with ‘higher than thou’ bands of ‘do-gooders’ is enough to put anyone off.

I personally have a passion for D’ni history – and hope we see a lot of literature in ‘Live’, alas; I have no desire to be Ghen, Kadish or any other D’ni – even whilst playing the game in character. We are mere Explorer’s – allowed to explore in certain areas courtesy of the DRC – my guess is that most of us will be too busy anyway - endeavouring to solve puzzles and marvelling at the scenery in new Ages to have the time to learn ’secret handshakes’ or am I playing a different game from everyone else?

The proposal of introducing a Guild System appears to be on the cards (courtesy of quotes from the ‘Powers that be’), and if introduced - may delight a select few of diehards – but isn’t the whole idea of Uru Live to encourage existing followers and new alike?

I have been there before in Uru Prologue – I really don’t want to see the new ‘Uru Live’ suffer the same fate because of a lack of subscribers.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:09 am 
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I'm sure that however Cyan decides to implement a guild-like structure, they will be sure that it doesn't cause elitist or classmen sentiments.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:56 am 
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I have faith in Cyan. I'm going in with an open mind, and I look forward to the positive experiences that I feel guilds can offer to enrich our gaming experience. I want to see with my own eyes and immmerse myself in the possibilities. I crave learning and working together and achieving good things - things for the benefit of all explorers.

I will not dismiss this idea so ripe with potential on the possibility of a few bad apples.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:01 pm 
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I can't seem to recall all this incidents where those arguing against guilds "blurred the line" between fantasy and reality, or otherwise might have "harmed" Uru by voicing their opinions, but let me clarify some things.

The fact that there is debate at all on this issue indicates that Cyan needs to think long and hard about whether or not to include guilds. The fact that people like us sit here and bicker about it, means that fairly sizeable chunks of the fan base have differing desires for their gaming.

Secondly, although I am paranoid, I have stated on several occasions, that informal groups are fine and dandy. They can't be stopped, and I wouldn't want them to be prevented anyway. I think guilds develop problems when they are made an OFFICAL part of the game.

Why do I see this as a problem? Because, most (please pardon my generalizations.) of those advocating guilds desire special privileges and exclusive rights as well as hierarchy to be conferred onto their guilds.

As a casual player who deals with enough politics in real life, I have a great aversion to dealing with cyber politics, and I'd like to think, I'm not alone in that sentiment.

Further, I don't like the idea that not every player will be able to have access to every part of the game, not on a basis of effort or skill, but by the rather artificial restriction of having to possess guild membership, or even (as some would have it) sufficient rank.

Allow me to explain this in more detail with an example:

Some time ago, there was a suggestion that in order to create Ages, (another topic of hot debate and great interest to myself.) one should have to possess membership in the Guild of Writers, at a certain rank.

I find it appalling to think that aside from having to learn the necessary skills to program an Age with whatever tools Cyan intends to make available in real life, that one should also have to run around performing digital errands and engage in electronic toadying in character, to attain a purely in character rank in order to make available the fruits of your programming efforts.

This is just one example, which will doubtlessly be dismissed as insane paranoid ranting in favor of talk of fancy guild robes and pointy hats, but I would just like to point out another key point.

Artificial restrictions discourage casual players. Anything that needlessly impedes entry to the game, or progress in it, should be avoided.

Which reminds me of my last point:

Nobody likes entering a game that has been running for some time, and having the in-game elite (usually high level players) lording their status over them. Guild membership is a status thing. That's why people want it including in the coding of the game. They want something to show off, a digital mark of higher status.

I've played that kind of game before, sought such badges of honor, and then realized the utter humiliating futility of it. Some people will always take it more seriously than you, and you can never catch up to them, but while you try, your real life erodes as you dedicate more time and effort to improving your social status in a game. Its ridiculous, and I'd like to think that Uru is better than that, to have to ensnare people with shiny baubles and certificates of fictitious status.

And so, in conclusion:

Informal groups = good.
Formal groups = mechanism for raising fictitious status.
Exclusivity = Discouraging impediments for new or casual players.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:29 pm 
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wow, I do love reading the CON guild peoples posts, they seem to think the entire community is made of evil maniacal manipulators who are just waiting for Cyan to give them a opening before reaching their master of the universe status.

Thats an exageration but many of these con guild posts do point towards sensationalism. There is politics within the community and yes there will always be some who try to be king of the hill.

But 99% of this community is made up of good people, responsible people, and people who care alot about this game.

Does the only current offical guild run rough shod over everyone, do they have positions of higher rank (not internally after all everything needs some basic organisation from forums (mods and admins) to groups which use councils and project leaders), do they control the future? Hrmm lets see, do the GoG do that? Hrmm no, I'm pretty sure GoG is that friendly group, who you can occasionally find helping new people around. (actually I haven't seen a GoG shirt in ages what happened to you guys?) I'm not saying that GoG don't have internal rank (because they are a group and all groups need some organisation) nor am I saying that they won't have their own political issues, they will do, but can a GoG person tell me what to do? Do they have major speacial privliages? No. Do they have a shirt to help identify their members, at the most extreme end they might get their own area to hold GoG meetings. Hrmm is hundreds of hours of tireless work for the community something we should encourage? I'm not saying the areas should be GoG exclusive either, but making a a guild 'offical' makes them part of the storyline and there may be a time when the GoG HQ can help tell that story.

The DRCL debacle happened because people were to busy shouting their opinions rather than listening and learning, and I shamefully admit I was a part of that. But lets look at the community after watching people mill around in circles for weeks on end, several people acted and got things going and were met with abuse. They didn't stand for the position and they did it fairly. Was there any attempt at a power grab, no not really they went with what was the majority decision and acted in the best interests of the community.

Guilds do have the possibility of abuse, there could well be a power grab attempts and the politics that come with them could cause people difficulties. But at the same time they open up a whole new way to play the game and could at a lot to the expearence. They have the potential to enhance the game.

I have no idea what Cyan's plan for guilds is, I have no idea how they will run what guilds will exist. All I know is Cyan is very pro guilds, Personnaly I can see them enhancing the game if they are done right.

We have heard the idea that "Guild are Evil! They exist to grab power and ruin us! Its not fair that if someone were to spend hours of their time working for a guild and the guild does work for the game that the DRC recognise them" We have heard that one countless time, perhaps you could suggest why you think that and idea of how to make sure it doesn't happen. And can we please read others posts? So far I have seen nowhere the idea that if you want to write ages you need to reach a set level in the guild of writers (achieved by hours of toadying) and then you have to learn to use blender. I have seen the idea proposed that the Guild of Writers could be the IC way of explaing the age building groups that exist.

I'm sorry if this seems aggressive or insulting, its not meant to be but it is meant to make people think how to work with rather than against. I know Guilds could be open to abuse and could effect the game for non IC players, but then live will have a huge IC aspect to it I think Cyan will know and plan to stop bad things happening. Unless the majority of the community is completly against them and from this poll then that doesn't seem likely.

[edit] for grammar spelling costs extra

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Last edited by Stevecrox on Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:27 pm 
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People, in general are not evil, but they are selfish.

I'm not insinuating anything about anyone here, but Uru isn't our tree fort. If the game is a success will mean that a whole lot of new people will be playing it. A lot of new people who might happen to bring with them the attitudes of elitism cultivated by other games. The Myst community, and the current Uru fan base are actually the nicest most friendly and wonderful group on the net.

However, that means that the rest of the web is full of people who are not so nice.

Once upon a time, on another message I was engaged in a friendly and civil discussion of a trivial nature. Another person, argued aggressively against me, using personal attacks, and eventually told me to shut up, and obey him, because he held a rank of something or other (the actual rank is irrelevant, and was simply a fancy word indicating he had made numerous posts on said message board, several digits more than I.)

Now, I'm sorry to say that I have seen the shadow of this man throughout the web, and several games, although thankfully not him himself again.

But the point remains the same, wherever there is a title to be claimed, and glory to be hogged, someone will seize it, and sooner or later, they will become a mean person/people about it.

I'm sure there are other ways to prevent it, but it seems to me that the best and easiest way is to simply not extend such an opportunity to begin with.

Stevecrox, I'm sorry I cannot cite my source on the in-character status for Age creation thing. There have been several threads on the issues of Age creation, and how to explain it in game, and I cannot remember which thread it was in. At the present, I lack the time, and the force of will to re-read those mountains of text, and so I shall temporarily withdraw the point.

I would like to mention however, that the Guild of Greeters is not an example of an Official guild, but rather an Informal guild. The greeters receive no special privilege, extra content, or other advantages for their membership and efforts.

I think that is what makes them such an altruistic and wonderful group. Literally the only thing to gain by being a greeter is the warm fuzzy feeling of helping those in need.

If the current incarnation of the Guild of Greeters were the template and inspiration for other new guilds, I would say they would be wonderful things indeed. However, this is not the kind of guild that has been called for repeatedly.

The kind of guild that is under debate here is the kind that has special privileges for members, ranks and titles and such.

Further, the Guild of Greeters is almost the only conceivable guild that can serve a real purpose without otherwise needless errands being invented for them. Why would there need to be an Ink Makers guild, and a Book Makers guild when books are really just coded in by Cyan?

Sure, maybe the Maintainers Guild could be made, and serve a function akin to message board moderators, but I think there would have to be very careful consideration made to what kinds of special moderator powers they would have, and how much authority and such.

That's pretty much it for guilds that can serve a real purpose. Basically anything else would just be a vehicle for enhancing cyber status and an opportunity for someone to abuse it.

These are just my thoughts about how some kinds, and degrees of Official Guild presence would be detrimental to the game. I don't think that guilds in and of themselves are bad, I just end up arguing the con side, because I am against the detrimental aspects, not the guilds themselves. Admittedly however, in some situations, it can be hard to separate the guild from the detrimental aspect.

-Edited to correct spelling.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:52 pm 
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The Guild of Greeters is a offically recognised guild by the DRC and by Cyan. In the time of prologue I believe Cyan put the image of the best greeeter in every hood once a month as a form of reward. When I think of Cyan and guilds they are who I think off. They were the first guild Cyan made cannon.

Yes I'm well aware of the not so nice communities on the net, I kinda floated around and in all my years online (nearly a decade, thats worrying) I've only every found one community similar to the Myst one, and today that community (the other one) has degraded into script kiddies.

Yes there aren't very nice people out there, but argueing that nasty people might take over and abuse a system, is like arguing that if you go outside a bus will run you over. (very bad comparison but I can't think of a better one.) Surely rather than denying what has potential to add to the game we should think, how can we limited this, how could we prevent this action, what system could we create if this happened. To me it seems more productive, but then I'm as pro guild as your going to get.

Your also rightabout Guilds not necessarily being needed, but there are guilds which have been suggested, ones like the Guild of Writers which can represent the Age builders in a IC capacity, I've heard of the Guild of Messengers, something that relays the news around the cavern, what about a Guild of Artists we have some hugely talented people out there.

As for speacial privilages I actually like the idea that choosing a guild or not choosing can effect the path of the story you take, would t hurt that the GoC took a slightly different route on Yeesha's journey to me in CCN? I don't think so as long as that extra content could be shared. But again such a concept would be a long way off.

I do agree that outside of a guild everyone should be equals, no one person is more important, perhaps in time the DRCL could become more important but again thats something which would need to be debated in a guild.

As for ranks inside of guilds I'll use TCT as an example, I'm one of two TCT editorial producers its largely a managerial role, I make sure thats scripts get written, that segments are completed, that people sit down and come up with ideas and then assemble it all at the end. Tonight's Podcast is all about one thing, I've tried to make sure the segments line up and there is a progression through it and it ties itself together. Mowog normally does thoughts for our podcast for this podcast the thought he made for us is more suited to our next podcast, in fact its ideal for that cast. Putting it in the current one would cause some confusion because of some of the content, but in the next cast it should fit perfectly. Now because my role more managerial I asked Mowog if thats ok he said it was fine and so its got a nice slot in the next cast. Thats how a rank system should work and we have tried to create a system that means that can always occur over at TCT. The idea is that if anything is going to effect a persons work they will be notified, if they are unavailable for a period of time then a collective decision can be made. if future guilds exist would not a similar structure prove benifical? and stop your mad power grabbers?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:02 am 
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I wouldn't be upset if a guild system never made it into the game, but I can think of a few pros to outweigh the cons.

Guilds would give explorers the ability to maybe affect the world in ways in which regular explorers wouldn't otherwise normally be able to. A guild of librarians might come up with a system for cataloguing D'ni books (remember the D'ni Decimal System?) and, if it passes the Cyan-likes-it test, it could possibly be "made canon", and perhaps even allow for an in-game process that would allow the Guild of Librarians to sort books.

If guilds have a heirarchy, I can only imagine it'd be organized the way Stevecrox mentions, the one that works for TCT. The leaders in informal groups tend to be those with the best organizational skills. Not just people willing to say "here's what we're doing", but people who can say "here's what we're doing" and be able to actually go out and do those things.

I don't think it'd be based on first-come, first-serve, or on a points system, or on anything that rewards anything more than leadership skills. What I'm guessing will happen is, like the liaisons, we'll be given the guilds, perhaps with some game mechanics to support them, and then we'll be expected to figure out exactly what to do with those guilds, how to organize them, and ways to begin doing watever the guild does.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:15 am 
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You know, Stevecrox, I think perhaps I have been too hasty in putting down guilds. I think if, like you suggested power grabbers could be contained, there might actually be some good in having guilds.

Your idea of including different paths in the Journey depending on guild membership intregues me. That would certainly add some spice to the game, and encourage people to help each other solving Ages, since you could in theory be helping people with an Age you would never get to see otherwise.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:19 am 
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As one of Rieuco's casual players - may I add my two cents?

Reading through this thread I have sometimes found myself agreeing with the pros and other times agreeing with the cons. Both sides have valid points that I'm sure Cyan is seriously looking at.

From my own point of view, I would not choose to be a member of any Guild so far mentioned because I'm not interested in the type of in-depth roll playing membership would require. I just want to explore and see all that there is to see - do all that there is to do - be all that there is to....er sorry, got a bit carried away. :oops:

My one worry is that by making this choice I will be penalized with exclusion from a particular Age or area of the Cavern. I can remember in Prologue the fun we had "sneaking" into those areas not yet officially opened by the DRC. :lol: Remember jumping the wall to get into the dock area? The thought that there might be some Age or Cavern area closed to my exploration simply because I choose not to join a Guild really irks me. If such is the case then the only fair solution I can think of is to allow a "backdoor" to those areas that non-Guild explorers can discover and use - like the wall jump into the dock area.

Is there a Cyantist out there who could reassure me on this? The whole idea behind both Myst and URU is that you can stick your nose into everything without limitation - isn't it? I apologize beforhand if I'm jumping at an unfounded conclusion.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:06 am 
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I just think I should be given the same privledges for my $9.99 a month as any other player.
If being part of a guild gave you exclusive rights to see a new in-progress age or use a beta feature that nobody else could use, I'd be against it, strongly. But if it's just a bit of roleplaying, why not, it may be fun.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:35 pm 
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How about another Age-access scenario Cyan has in fact alluded to. An new linking book appears on the Ae'gura docks Monday, 200 people visit it by Wednesday, and it disappears. Only those 200 people who visited the book over those three days now have this linking book on their Relto shelf. No other explorer has the book, and won't for a while, at least. In order for other explorers to visit this new Age, they have to socialize and meet up with a friend who has the linking book -- and then, their access to that Age is only by invitation, they won't get the book on their Relto shelf.

Now, is this fair? You could see this as being "penalized" for not linking in every day, or special exclusive rights granted to those lucky folks who by chance happened to find the book Monday to Wednesday. But the same thing has already been happening for a while with bahro stones and reward clothing (think back to the Yeesha page in the hood stone gardens during Prologue, or the Relto wooden deck Yeesha page in UU just recently). IIRC, the same idea was to be applied to Ages as well -- unfair?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:09 pm 
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Maybe it could be taken down for 2 days or something. Just to get your mouth watering, and then it comes back up and stays.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:23 am 
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I think any restricted area should be set up in such a way that if you've managed to get in, by any means, you can return via either a book in your Relto or a link from the Nexus

This way it still encourages people to socialize to get access, but doesn't punish those who don't have time to log in every day.

If it becomes clear that such a method allows too many access too quickly, then perhaps the length of time the such books are available could be shortened.

Or the DRC could pretend to punish those who use the books. Maybe Nexus access could be temporarily disabled, (of course with a message: "Due to your violation of DRC rules, you are hereby denied access to D'ni for a period of X days.")

Naturally there should be a way to circumvent such punishments, perhaps by having a friend "break you out" of exile, by meeting you in one of your Ages, and letting you back into Ae'gura through a linking book on their shelf.

This way those who want to role play would get to do so against a DRC with some degree of force behind it, and get to become greater rebels in the proccess, without having their gameplay actually impaired.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:31 am 
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@domahreh
On those occasions Cyan rewarded the players for Exploring, not just for being part of a select group. There's a huge difference in rewarding players for playing the game, as every other game in existance does, rather than just for getting into the Cool Club.

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