It is currently Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:08 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:57 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 10:37 pm
Posts: 661
Oh man, Maya plug-ins would be sweet.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:03 am
Posts: 19
Besharen wrote:
Sharpshot, the forum is located here: http://forum.agebuilder.org/


This mean I must talk with the people there to get the age builder program? I dont want to seriously make an age, just to see if I could make a real puzzle. which I would continue if the puzzle turns out well.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 133
Location: Iowa
I fail to see what is so feared about player made Ages.

If a drag & drop Age creation program were made, it would be a given that the program would not allow invalid, or otherwise hazardous Ages to be saved. (Again, I cite my often repeated source of Bioware's Auora Toolset, which simply refuses to save, and displays an error message if any part of the created module is invalid.)

Instituting Cyan approval of player made Ages before they are made publicly availabe would prevent anything inappropriate, dangerous, or of poor quality from entering into public access.

_________________
Alec Winters KI 06399622

"History is irredeemable."
- Kain, Scion of Balance


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:04 pm 
The logical end result of exploring D'ni is discovering and mastering the Art. That's certainly what I signed up for.:) The hard part of creating Ages for Uru, though, is not so much the mechanics, or even the design. Those can be learned: there are landscape design programmes all over the place. I have about six. What makes an Age worth visiting is its story, and that's something player-created Ages are unlikely to have: they'll mostly be places to go and look at, maybe solve a puzzle, and then come back. So I don't think their impact on Live itself will be that great...but I do think it's the way to go, and I hope Cyan are thinking that too.

My absolute ideal? People come to Live, not only for the beautiful worlds, the brain-shredding puzzles or the compelling storylines, but to learn how to make beautiful worlds, brain-shredding puzzles and compelling storylines of their own. Masterclasses, not only in the relatively simple Art of the D'ni, but in the far subtler and more complex Art of the Cyantist. A legacy that will last long after Cyan has passed into game-making history.

Probably won't happen, but if you're going to dream, dream big. :)


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:23 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Nowhere, Maine
Mincetro wrote:
I need to find a way to import max files into Blender and make my own ages some day... Because, personally, I hate Blenders interface.
I really hope the Cyan toolkit wil support either Max, Maya or Lightwave, but until then I'll use my own game engine.


Okay, there is a way to do that in Blender 2.41 (the latest download).
Download at www.blender.org


Okay, get into Blender,
click the File menu,
Move your mouse to Import,
Click the appropriate file type and then find your file.

Disclaimer: I do not own 3Ds Max, so I have not tried this. I am relatively new to 3D modeling, so all I have been able to get so far is Blender, 'cause it's free.

_________________
///CONSTRUCTION ZONE///
New Signature under construction.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:18 am
Posts: 57
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
I for one really look forward to being able to create ages in UruLive. I'll gladly take the time to write compelling fiction to explain the age, and lavish it with as much ingenuity as I can, I just need tools that work.

I have Maya 7 and 3D Studio Max 8, and I have to say, this is not fun software for a guy who does most of his work in Adobe products. I still haven't gotten comfortabe with the interface, and the controls are so finicky.

It may seem like an unpleasant thing to say to those who have busted their guts to learn how to use 3D software correctly, but one fine day, CYAN are going to have to take away your magic status as the only few dozen people capable of designing 3D environments outside of CYAN, and put the tools in the hands of those you don't trust and don't think have earned the right. That's just how things work these days. And frankly, it's a feature that has fairly called out to be implemented since Uru came along.

Folks are going to have to be allowed to easily learn to create their own ages one fine day. It's the kind of gameplay that will attract so very many people, and it's about the only broadly popular gameplay feature not in Uru already that actually fits the paradigm.

We don't fight, we don't kill, we don't gather precious items, we don't solve murder mysteries... we just explore strange locations and find ancient descriptive books, and try to unravel whatever mystery left the books there unattended.

Since folks around here will only accept ages as the sole form of gameplay anyway, why is it so hard to imagine that some really talented folks, who aren't absolute wizards with overly byzantine 3D software, might yet be able to generate some really pleasant content to toy with, regardless of whether it's Official Cyan material or not?

I think that's such an elitist attitude to take, and it diminishes the future possibilities of the game to appeal to a broader audience, and thus remain viable.

You don't want questing or grinding or crafting, but you haven't given any options as to what forms of gameplay can be worked into UruLive that will fill the gap between content updates.

Whereas, if you give people building tools, it will keep them busy and may even generate some really nice, very popular places to visit that still have a very Myst look and feel to them, because everything would be built using tools designed for making Ages.

It's not like you'll suddenly be deluged with endless, badly textured landscapes with flat lighting and wonky, inelegant shapes hammered together in Bryce or something. And even if a vast pecentage of them are really substandard, what is it to you? Nobody said you had to visit.

Even CYAN won't be able to keep the original content coming fast enough to satisfy the demand, and a lot of folks will give up and leave, taking their money and quite possibly your game with them.

Plus, if you expect CYAN to keep the ages coming without getting really stale really quickly, you haven't thought this thing all the way through at all.

Do you remember Myst V? Do you remember how slightly unfinished a couple of those ages felt? Do you remember how undirected a fair bit of that game felt?

Try to imagine that happening in UruLive every couple of months, and see how far this 'more ages, story and puzzles, and that's it' mentality will really fly.
____________________

Sorry. That's been bothering me for a couple of months now.

_________________
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Adventure Game Devotee at large


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:49 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 4:30 pm
Posts: 1409
Location: Canadian lost in Nebraska
Cycreim wrote:
If I remember correctly:

All fan-created Ages will be "separate" from Cyan content. Whether that means on a different server, available through a special section of the game, or whatever, I don't think that's been decided on.


Indications from Cyan seem to be that fan-created Ages will go through a thorough approval and bug-testing process... and that they will be available in a separate area - like a section or room of the Library, for example - and "labelled" as Ages written by those Uru explorers that have taken up the Art...

So, even though the Ages in question might not fit directly into Cyan's story, the in-story explanation of their existence will likely be "explorers learning and practicing the Art."

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:02 am 
I would rather they did not say that all fan ages are explorer written. For one that will mess up storylines and such for those of us working on ages that were supposed to be written by the D'ni.

In fact the ages over at AgeBuilder are D'ni in origin. That's part of the background and that a group of people with the help of the Explorers are simply restoring the ages.

I personally have been opposed to the Explorer can write scenario.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:17 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Tigard, OR
There is a simple* solution to that, in my opinion.

Fan-written Ages could be classified into two categories:

"Explorer-Written" and "Explorer-Discovered."

That way, in addition to books "written by explorers", you can have books "discovered by explorers" which don't have the DRC stamp of approval.

* Although, it's not really so simple. I suspect that books in the second category would have to go through more complicated vetting to ensure that they do not introduce contradictions into the story of the D'ni. For this reason, Cyan may be reluctant to pursue the idea. But, that's a consequence you must accept when you try to create things in someone else's universe. If you want full creative control... create your own universe. BUT... I hope that Cyan can work out an acceptable solution for all parties, because I think it would be to everyone's benefit.

_________________
MOULa KI: 26838 | Prologue Videos | Visit rel.to to explore Myst, Uru, and D'ni communities!
Click here for social/game profiles


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:35 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 3:52 pm
Posts: 295
Lee in Limbo wrote:
Plus, if you expect CYAN to keep the ages coming without getting really stale really quickly, you haven't thought this thing all the way through at all.

Do you remember Myst V? Do you remember how slightly unfinished a couple of those ages felt? Do you remember how undirected a fair bit of that game felt?

Try to imagine that happening in UruLive every couple of months, and see how far this 'more ages, story and puzzles, and that's it' mentality will really fly.

This is unfair. Myst V was produced under very particular circumstances, and, though I liked EoA, I'm sure I can expect something better from Live.

As Starfyre, I'm too uncomfortable with the idea "explorers can write". There are so many who are concerned with the hyerarchy of explorers that the Guilds might create, think about what could happen if some of us had the ability (and the time, and the resources) to write and others not.
I'm not against Age creation as I'm not against Guilds, but it seems to me that some implications are overlooked because almost everyone thinks it would be 'neat' to write a new Age.

_________________
Morningstar - KI#1053460
Please avoid drinking the lake water.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:54 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Tigard, OR
Morningstar wrote:
think about what could happen if some of us had the ability (and the time, and the resources) to write and others not.


Actually, I find this to be very exciting, because it fits right in with the story and the theme of the privileged Proud vs the underprivileged Least. ;)

_________________
MOULa KI: 26838 | Prologue Videos | Visit rel.to to explore Myst, Uru, and D'ni communities!
Click here for social/game profiles


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Posts: 1561
Location: Middle of USA
I am curious as to why some ppl think that people from earth can not learn the art?
Is it because the art is only for the D'ni?
Are you saying like in Stargate Atlantas (sorry for this example but it came to mind first) only ppl with the "Ancient" gene can use certain equipment?
Or is the reason behind the need to stop explorers from writing the fear that the on-line game will become fluff? Which in the long run would turn it into any other on-line game and sooner than later it might fail.

Personally I have no problem with others writing their own Ages. I think there are some very talented and smart IC and OC ppl that would sit down and read every journal and book in the city to learn it.
Please, no one take this as an insult. I am honestly just curious.

--I have heard the reasoning that ppl believe it would take away from the story but those ppl do not have to go to those ages. So the worst it would do is get more ppl to sign up to play.
--I have heard the reasoning that players should not write story line material because they are not Cyan. But then are you saying that Cyan can not hire more ppl because they are not Cyanists or is just getting a paycheck from Cyan make you automatically a person of D'ni knowledge?
--Why can't Cyan accept donated or cheaply purchased Ages that fit perfectly into their story line? That sure would make things easier for them and give them ppl to look to when they need to hire.
--I hear that it would take up precious time from Cyan to test the story line ages. But if Cyan were to write the age themselves wouldn't they have to test it anyway? Doesn't someone else writing the age save them time. All they have to do is act like a publisher. Inspect the age and send it back for rewrites in whatever way they see fit. (mommy was a writer so I understand the continuous rewriting thing)
--I hear that beta testing non-story line ages would take up too much of their time. But couldn't that be handed off to the explores who want to do that while waiting for new content to be released? I think it'd be fun to explore someones mind through their writing. If I get stuck in a wall, I will just tell them, "hey I got stuck in a wall, here, /point. Go fix that." Then all cyan has to do is have one person run thru the age looking for copyrighted material and or slander. (you can't have your ex doing nasty things to farm animals released to the public,. Both cyan and the writer can be sued for slander)
--I have not heard anything about fan written material either story line or just plain fluff having to be released as soon as the writer has finished it. So the ages could be written and put into a Queue. Cyan could have 1 person, yep just one, going over the material and the player has to wait until it has been approved by the DRC. So there is no great loss in money or time to Cyan. I am sure Cyan is not going to release this ability to the players until they have the resources to back it with at least one person. So, NO, it won't take away from their writing. You don't have to be a software guru to beta test an age and look for copyrighted material, maybe a lawyer. :shock:


I posted all this to really just get ppl to answer the questions that the occasional forum reader like myself has. I see you guys who are here every day debating this but with out any real reasoning... just more of a, "because I say so" reasoning.
I can go either way on this idea although for now I am leaning towards the "allow it". I have read the other threads on this subject too and not seen any hard evidence to stop it except for one or two things.
1) People who are writing ages that they want Incorporated into the story don't want to be marginalized by having LOTS of ppl writing ages. (kinda selfish and sorry if that wasn't the intent of those posts in other threads but that's how it reads)
2) You can't have it because writing cartoon ages and silly stuff is.... well just silly and not allowed. ( face the music. if that is what keeps cyan going then I am willing to have ages that I will never visit to keep the story going)

In response, because I know I will get a lot of responses... hopefully, please do not use either of those two arguments. Not because I am a mean person/people...lol... but they just don't work for me or the casual forum reader, so I doubt those two arguments hold up at all. You may also notice that I usually don't re-post that much in the same thread.
I usually say my piece and let ya'all take off with it.

Siince I am a casual forum person please don't both with the insults to me because something I said hurt you. Accept my apology now if that happens because it was not meant that way.
I think we here at the forum scare off ppl with some of the ways ppl repsond to messages and ideas.
I see ppl post an idea, get cut down and rarely post another. It's usualy the brave ones like JWPlatt that keep on going.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Posts: 1561
Location: Middle of USA
Marten wrote:
Morningstar wrote:
think about what could happen if some of us had the ability (and the time, and the resources) to write and others not.


Actually, I find this to be very exciting, because it fits right in with the story and the theme of the privileged Proud vs the underprivileged Least. ;)


I agree! Whole hardetly!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:42 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:17 am
Posts: 1702
Location: Spokane, WA
Before I get started, I'd like to point out that I very much support the idea of fan-created content in Uru, I just think it needs to be handled carefully and correctly or there's an open door for exploitations and areas of really shoddy craftsmanship on the horizon. That having been said, a little oversight from Cyan would go a long way towards negating this possibility, but at the moment (and I do stress that this is at the moment, and things can chance in the future), Cyan just doesn't have the staff to keep on top of fan-developed material and get through it with any sort of speed as to make it worthwhile submitting your stuff.

On the subject of a more simple editor, since Lee brought it up... I don't think anyone here is claiming that those unable to use MAX, Maya, or Blender are any less deserving of having their Age fully realized than those who can. If anything, though, it's those able to use MAX, Maya, and Blender who will be able to develop more complex Ages, which is something that simply comes with being able to do it all yourself, rather than relying on an editor with pre-established boundaries. A group of artists and programmers with knowledge of MAX can pull off a lot more, complexity-wise, than someone working with a drag-and-drop system... that's just how it ends up being.

I can understand the hesitance to let just anyone take a crack at Age creation, though. No, I don't have to visit something that looks like it was knocked up in Bryce in 10 minutes, but other people might, and if it gets mistaken for something Cyan has done (and even with a dozen notices and disclaimers, someone's still going to, that's just how the internet works), then it brings the quality of the whole production down a notch. Again, Cyan providing a bit of oversight in this arena would reduce this sort of thing occurring. The simple fact of the matter is that without an editor provided by Cyan with a lot of pre-made objects and textures that can be dragged and dropped into place, people have to build *everything* themselves, and create all of the textures themselves too (because Google Image Search is not a valid source of textures in a non-private work). That's an incredibly high bar, and it's not being elitist to say that most people probably aren't up to that... it's just the truth.

Now, Cyan has said that there won't be an editor for a good while yet, because they're busy actually making their own content (which is what will float the game or sink it on its own merits), and don't have the money or staff to make an editor themselves. So, we're stuck with do-it-yourself stuff until that day eventually comes. I see no reason why less-able individuals can't work with groups already developing Ages to get theirs done as well... no, it won't be perfect, but even doing it yourself, it rarely is (speaking from experience, here...).

To answer a few of Sudre's questions...

Sudre wrote:
I am curious as to why some ppl think that people from earth can not learn the art?
Is it because the art is only for the D'ni?
Are you saying like in Stargate Atlantas (sorry for this example but it came to mind first) only ppl with the "Ancient" gene can use certain equipment?
Or is the reason behind the need to stop explorers from writing the fear that the on-line game will become fluff? Which in the long run would turn it into any other on-line game and sooner than later it might fail.

Actually, I would be opposed to explorers learning how to Write (at least immediately... over time my objections would lessen) simply because part of the Art was passed down through oral tradition and, supposedly, isn't written down anywhere... Gehn had the same problem. Atrus at least had Anna to learn from, and she had learned from Aitrus. And even Gehn and Atrus took years to really get "good" at the Art... and Gehn not so much. It's been described as a challenge to be able to create something viable, and an even greater challenge to master the concepts... opening the doors to everyone seems a bit of a sleight against the D'ni's abilities and achievements.

Quote:
--I have heard the reasoning that players should not write story line material because they are not Cyan. But then are you saying that Cyan can not hire more ppl because they are not Cyanists or is just getting a paycheck from Cyan make you automatically a person of D'ni knowledge?

Not to disparage the artists at Cyan, but the stuff they come up with is dictated by storylines developed by people like Rand, RAWA, and Ryan. They're not in charge of developing the entire Age from scratch by themselves using pieced-together bits of released canon (which may or may not be accurate). Being employed by Cyan gives you access to a LOT more information (if it's needed), as well as a larger group of people already well-versed in D'ni whatsits. As an outsider, all you can do is guess and hope you've got it right. It's also harder to push a story arc forward, because you don't know what Cyan might have planned for it, and for obvious reasons, they're probably not going to tell you ;).

Quote:
--I hear that it would take up precious time from Cyan to test the story line ages. But if Cyan were to write the age themselves wouldn't they have to test it anyway? Doesn't someone else writing the age save them time. All they have to do is act like a publisher. Inspect the age and send it back for rewrites in whatever way they see fit. (mommy was a writer so I understand the continuous rewriting thing)

Developing an Age internally allows for oversight every step of the way as part of its construction. Testing third-party Ages takes more time because they have to go over something that was built entirely without their oversight, and so they need to be much more thorough at a stage where changes are often much harder to make. Age development is a tad bit more involved than novel writing, and there's a whole slew of technical problems that may crop up, especially if things are built using 3D software plugins and not a stand-alone piece of developer-provided software which can catch invalid code and such.

Quote:
1) People who are writing ages that they want Incorporated into the story don't want to be marginalized by having LOTS of ppl writing ages. (kinda selfish and sorry if that wasn't the intent of those posts in other threads but that's how it reads)

Developing an Age to integrate into a storyline is a LOT of work, and with that comes a certain amount of attachment, not to mention accomplishment. Also, allowing anyone to develop storyline Ages quickly becomes not just a logistical headache as stories may begin contradicting each other, but it becomes a bit of an issue for consistency with the past, as I've noticed how easy it is for people to get their facts wrong and build a whole tale around it.

Explorer-Written Ages suffer from this to a much lesser degree, because chances are, you're not going to have remnants of a fallen civilization in your newly-Written Age (well, not remnants of D'ni, anyway... the infinite nature of the multiverse sort of precludes that ;)). There's just the "where did you learn to do that?" catch involved... *shrug*
Quote:
2) You can't have it because writing cartoon ages and silly stuff is.... well just silly and not allowed. ( face the music. if that is what keeps cyan going then I am willing to have ages that I will never visit to keep the story going)

I don't think it's a requirement that every Age be completely serious, but there are limitations to what can be done in the game simply because of the game engine's limitations... cartoony stuff, like cartoon physics and cel shading and other strange things aren't going to be possible because the engine itself just doesn't allow for them. However, amusement parks, some of the more "impossible" Ages (like Catherine's)... those are things I'd actually like seeing, and if Cyan hasn't got the time or manpower to provide them, I'd be fine with explorers doing the service. :)

Again, please don't think that I'm railing against the notion of fan-created content... I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that, lacking an editor, and knowing there won't be one for some time, there are a lot of complexities and risks to fan-made material which need to be carefully considered before taking the first step in that direction. I'm also saying this as someone who has already been developing a few things that I hope could make it into the game at some point, so please understand that I have a vested interest in seeing fan content get into Uru, but I'm willing to wait until it can be done correctly and done well. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Posts: 1561
Location: Middle of USA
Personely I'd like to see it done, if it's done at all, using a plugin from Cyan. I have a 3D rendering of my house I made with a program that allows me to walk around in it. I use it when I decide to do thing like remodel my 3rd floor bathroom. It's great for getting a feel for the size and where to put things. The point of this it to show that with a program written by Cyan, who supplies textures and such, a really neat place can be made rather easily.
I create this with just what is supplied with the software. It took longer to take all the measurements than to create.

I'm not trying to say I want my house in the game... please don't go there. I just wanted to point out to ppl who would like to create something in URU that maybe if Cyan gets the time to write a program for it, you will be able to do some pretty neat stuff.

Image

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron