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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:02 pm 
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:mrgreen: That’s a cracking idea isn’t it? - Just get the fans to create our Ages. What do we need Cyan for?

Puh-lease… I’m staggered at the confidence some of you have in your ‘Fan Created Ages’ Do you seriously think fan created Ages will come up to the quality that we expect from Cyan? And, Explorers are actually going to part with their money every month to play in them?

All blinkered amateurs (I don’t mean this in any defamatory sense, but in the sense that an amateur doesn’t get paid for his work) should confine their home-made Ages to their own PC. I say ‘blinkered’ because it’s a fact that the ‘fans’ who created them automatically think their programming is the most fantastic thing in the world – when in reality it won’t come near to what we expect in an online game that we are paying monthly for.

I remember clicking a link somewhere to view the ‘progress so far’ on a fan created Age – and the rave reviews from some of Pros that viewed it – it must have taken some poor devil hours and hours of work – and to be honest – I thought it was terrible – it didn’t come anywhere near Cyan quality.

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind – the reason I’m so vehemently against the idea – is simple. They just won’t be good enough. Having to rely on fan created work to run an online computer game will undoubtedly put a lot of people off – remember… we have to pay for this!

Please don’t hit me with ‘some of the work is very creative’ and ‘the graphics are brilliant’ if their work is so ‘brilliant’ - shouldn’t they be working for Cyan – instead of doing it as a hobby.

It’s about time for some cons on this thread – I know I’m not alone on this subject.

Nah… for me you can leave fan created Ages out.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:35 pm 
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It's nice having a day off to do nothing but read forums.

I guess from that last post Cyan is DOOMED. Since everyone except them is an idiot and can't write an age to save their ... I guess Live will fail as soon as Cyan has to hire more ppl and they discover that no one can write ages except them.
But as my longer post above expected. Someone had to come along just to insult ppl.
For fans working on a project in their spare time and not ever expecting it to be put into live, I think they are doing a great job. I'm sure they'd actually work on improving the textures and details if they knew the age would get into Live, but at that point we would no longer see it until it was released in Live.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:09 pm 
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The thing to note though, is that Cyan workers are getting paid to make ages. I would assume the staggeringly large majority of fans are not. Sure, fan-made ages could still be good, but let's face it. Paid positions tend to beat volunteer positions in quality of output hands-down. There just isn't the same incentive.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:09 pm 
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Fan creted ages have one problem and one problem only.

They are created generally by one fan, even Ahra Pahts a group devlopment project gives areas over for one person to do as they like. Now please understand I can't use blender to save my life and have a lot of respect for the fan created content, I want to see more of it.

But Cyan have an arts team, a group who builds wireframe models, a group who figures out textures, a group which adds python code. These people do their job for a living, they have learnt something to a high degree and do it well.

A person may be a great wireframe modeller but diabolical at texturing, while at the same time you can have a person great at textures, but his creativity or wireframe modelling might be not so good. This is no slight against anyone, I'm studying Computer engineering this involves analogue and digital signal processing, while I love analogue signal processing I'm not that good at it, while I'm top in the class concerning all things digital (yes I know there no such thing as digital). A Cyan released texture pack would help ALOT of the fancreated ages, not all but many have in my eyes suffered from the textures even if the texturing was good. If a group of age builders could work colaboratly on one age, not in areas but have a group of age builders extremely good in one aspect of age creation and you brought them together. I would say looking at the talent they could easily put something out that would compete with Cyan created ages.

But their inlies the problem the shere volume of work, it no longer is your pride and joy, the reason to make the age itself is lost.

There are one or two ages I would like to see in Live, but xurrently maybe only one or two.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:11 am 
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Tokai wrote:
Having to rely on fan created work to run an online computer game will undoubtedly put a lot of people off – remember… we have to pay for this!

Um... when did it become official policy that fan-created content was going to be the primary focus of Uru? That would sort of defeat the purpose of Cyan developing new areas and Ages for release as often as possible, wouldn't it? Cyan is driving the story, not the fans. As has been rather clearly demonstrated over the past 2 years in UU, fan-developed stories don't last long, aren't followed very intently by more than a handful of people, and lacking new content, they don't actually go anywhere. Live hinges on Cyan's ability to float the game on their own content. Fan-created stuff is a bonus feature, and one that isn't even available yet.

As Steve said, most fan developments are usually done by one, maybe two people, and building an entire Age is an incredibly tedious task. Trust me, I've done it once, and am in the process of doing it again. It's a *lot* easier to do something great-looking if you've got a whole group of people, and you all happen to be in the same building 9 to 5. Not to say it can't be done outside of Cyan, just saying that it's more difficult. If the person is in a rush or has simply become burned out on the project, the quality is always going to suffer, no matter how good it looked or could have looked to start off with. More often, in fact, the problem is that it takes so long for a project to actually reach a Cyan-like level of quality that the whole thing just grinds to a halt and whatever team may have been assembled just falls apart. Again, trust me, it's happened to me before (Writing Project, anyone?).

As I've said before, I don't think there's going to be a massive deluge of Ages once Cyan opens the doors, but I think there will be an initial spike of "meh" material, followed by a rather long silence while the really serious folks gear up and band together to finally get something done for a change. If Cyan releases an editor of their own, I don't think quality is something that needs to be worried about nearly as much, even for amateur projects, because most, if not all, of the content will be building blocks provided by Cyan for general usage. I would just expect that editor-built Ages would have functionality more akin to Eder Kemo than to Gahreesen or Teledahn, both of which are rather technically advanced Ages.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:03 am 
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Building anything from scratch is hard work, and the if the consistant problems that cause it to fall short of your expectations doesn't discourage you enough to quit, then you become delluded about the quality of your work. This much is true.

HOWEVER, with the proper tools, even amatures can make remarkable things. Bioware revolutionized gaming with the Auora Toolset. It allowed players to create worlds conflicts, and entire campaigns many of which were on par with what Bioware itself was putting out.

The key lies in prefab construction. Don't tell fans to make things from scratch, because it will suck. Give them superior tools, give them resources to work from, templates, and graphics, and then you'll see some remarkable creativity.

I don't think that player created Ages should be central to Uru, but whether or not I get to write my own Age and invite friends to drop by and visit is going to be a big factor in decideding how much I'm willing to pay to play Uru.

The fact is people want to make their own Ages, and I think it's foolish to deny them that. No one ever said they ought to be the central part of the game, they just need to be there somewhere.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:10 pm 
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:mrgreen: The posts since my last, most probably will have convinced any doubters of any credence in fan created Ages. I re-iterate my post – they will not come up to the mark. Our sorrows go out to all of you who are endeavouring to create them and push the idea forward to Cyan – but the simple truth remains. The best quality is always going to come from the game-makers – why don’t you give them your suggestions and ideas which may be beneficial, and let them get on with the job of producing a game of the quality we want?

I’m not going to go through all the reasons why Cyan Ages will be better than Fan created Ages again – you have to remember there are a lot of Myst followers that simply want to embroil themselves in Myst / Uru from Cyan without the interference of amateur works thrown in.

Cyan has never let us down in the past – can we please just let them get on with producing Uru Live for us to play. Without all these over-confident game entrepreneurs with their fantastic ‘out of this world’, ‘spent a lot of time on this’, creations of amateur Ages most of us I’m sure will – give a ‘body swerve’ if they ever come to fruition.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:46 pm 
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Since Cyan are encouraging this and are proposing to provide the tools in due course, it may not be as simple as no fan-produced age is good enough.

What's to prevent Cyan either helping or taking over the age and finishing it off so that it is good enough?

I can't remember where the discussion about intellectual property was left, but they might own the ages anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:51 pm 
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:mrgreen: I rest my case...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:53 am 
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As long as they keep fan created ages seperate from the storyline and stuff, I'll be fine.

And for the people that want it to seem that it was discovered, they could just have it so that ALL of them say "Discovered by:" on them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:32 am 
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When I first heard that there would, er, make that might (as RAWA would say, (Cautious Optimism)), be fan ages in Uru Live I got a little worried. But now I've decided to put my trust in Cyan. I know if anybody can pull it off, it'll be them.

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Last edited by www2 on Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:33 am 
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There is no way fan made Ages could be integrated into the storyline, because as fans we don't know what's in production. Hence, they are by their very nature seperate and distinct.

I can not understand why people feel threatened by fan made Ages, like a group of players are going to somehow stage a coup over Cyan and hold the rest of the players captive and force them to play crappy Ages.

Come on.

If you don't want to play fan made Ages, then DON'T. No one will be forcing you. Why can't the rest of us have our fun on the other side of the cavern?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:06 am 
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Stevecrox wrote:
But Cyan have an arts team, a group who builds wireframe models, a group who figures out textures, a group which adds python code. These people do their job for a living, they have learnt something to a high degree and do it well.
If you have tPotS prima guide I suggest you flick through it. What Cyan does is the exact opposite of what you just said.
Each artist creates, for example, on object. The object is modeled and textured by the same artist.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:25 am 
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Yep. All artists I know model, uvmap, texture, animate and export their own models (including ME!).

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:25 am 
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Rieuco wrote:
I can not understand why people feel threatened by fan made Ages, like a group of players are going to somehow stage a coup over Cyan and hold the rest of the players captive and force them to play crappy Ages.


I don't think "threatened" is what folks feel when they roll their eyes at the thought of fan-made Ages.

I'm not sure it's concern, either, over the prospect of sub-par creativity or amateurish execution, that makes people groan.

I think the cold water that keeps getting doused on the notion of Fan Age Making is a reaction to some of the Fan Age Makers themselves.

Not all, but some. Those who claim to be motivated by creative desires, but in fact desire to compete with other Fan Age Makers to get attention for themselves. Those who claim to love the game, but are egotistic in their attitudes and strident in their demands to the game makers. Those for whom fan creations are all about the big "Me."

No matter if it's Uru Ages, video games, comic books or Trekkers, it's those kind of fans who sully the concept of fan creations.


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