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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:51 am 
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BAD, you are absolutely right. We are indeed fighting two seperate battles here.

You are right this isn't what we should be discussing, since that part has been decided now, but even with the direct statements from Cyan that they want player created Ages, it is interesting how many insist on arguing that they should abandon that branch of development. These are the posts and arguments I have been replying to in this thread.

I guess I just get worked up too easily on this topic. Whenever someone starts up with such statements attempting to undermine the existance of fan created Ages in any form, I am compelled by an unimaginably powerful force to argue the point.

You are also right we should instead be discussing how to best impliment fan made Ages.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:22 am 
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What I would like to see is this topic dropped (for now) since we have no idea what Cyan is planning in regards to player created content.

There really isn't anything we could possibly add here that would sway them one way or the other (IMHO) and complaining and arguing about something that doesn't exist yet, gets under my skin.

Once their plans are known, THEN we can start discussing how fair or damaging they would be to our gaming experience.

Ok? 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:19 am 
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BAD wrote:
What I would like to see is this topic dropped (for now) since we have no idea what Cyan is planning in regards to player created content.

There really isn't anything we could possibly add here that would sway them one way or the other (IMHO) and complaining and arguing about something that doesn't exist yet, gets under my skin.

Once their plans are known, THEN we can start discussing how fair or damaging they would be to our gaming experience.

Ok? 8)

No, not okay. Your "IMHO" and smiley is disingenuous, considering your attempt to take charge and shut down discussion. If you don't like a topic, don't waste your time here. Like it or not, everyone is free to discuss things without worrying about your skin. Nobody agrees with everything. If we were to follow your example, all forums would fall silent by requests like yours.

More discussion and speculation, please.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:30 am 
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I'm actually a qualified 3DSMax Modeller/Animator ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:55 pm 
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JWPlatt: I agree, but the fact is all points of view and all arguments have been exposed and the discussion has been running in circles for a couple months now. For many people it has just become pointless to discuss it any further for now.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:35 pm 
A few points. Ages are progressing big time. Just go take a look at the screenshots I posted here and at UO of the age. People have been amazed at how far we have progressed in such a short time. Are we at Cyan's level. No. And it's not cause people can't do the work.

It's cause we don't have the resources. Cyan has more resources, even now when they have fewer resources then they did during Prologue they still have more resources. Two there is multiple reasons were doing this as a hobby instead of working for Cyan. The first of which Cyan can't afford to hire anymore at the moment or they would have probably by now. Two some of the people working on this in there spare time are still in High School. Lastly on that front just cause their in High School doesn't mean they can't do good work. Again take a look at Ahra Pahts.

Now will Cyan put every age submitted into Uru. I highly doubt it. Some will be below par. Others will for who knows what reason, a bug in the age perhaps, not make it either. The ones that do you will be amazed at the age you visit.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:58 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
BAD wrote:
What I would like to see is this topic dropped (for now) since we have no idea what Cyan is planning in regards to player created content.

There really isn't anything we could possibly add here that would sway them one way or the other (IMHO) and complaining and arguing about something that doesn't exist yet, gets under my skin.

Once their plans are known, THEN we can start discussing how fair or damaging they would be to our gaming experience.

Ok? 8)

No, not okay. Your "IMHO" and smiley is disingenuous, considering your attempt to take charge and shut down discussion. If you don't like a topic, don't waste your time here. Like it or not, everyone is free to discuss things without worrying about your skin. Nobody agrees with everything. If we were to follow your example, all forums would fall silent by requests like yours.

More discussion and speculation, please.


Perhaps you know me better than I do? I did not ask that speculation on this topic cease. If you read the description of this topic, it is simply to ask that Cyan does not add fan created ages. I put my thoughts on the subject in honestly and to the point.

I did not say that people could not continue to speculate or discuss this matter, I wrote what I would like to see. Am I so persuasive that you all would follow what I say?

Since most outlooks have been said already, I thought it would be wise for us to drop this discussion till we get more information about Cyan's plans.

When you wish for all to express their opinions, you also have to accept the ones you do not care for.

Asking someone to not put their thoughts in while arguing the point that everyone should be free to put their opinion in, is hypocritical. Notice I did not suggest to you to leave your thoughts out.

Now I will leave this thread alone, since I don't wish to start an off topic arguement.

(You'll notice no smiley this time. I didn't want you to think me disingenuous. :D Whoops!)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:40 am 
Problem is we already know what Cyan's plans. They have said repeatedly that they wish to incorporate fan ages into Uru. You nor anyone else is going to change there minds. Personally If people such as yourself were to get Cyan to change there mind I personally would leave the community. I would feel cheated. You see I am in that minority, or so it seems anyways, that want fan ages.

Now the only this is how or when they will do it. I don't expect fan ages to be made available at launch or even a month or two after. But in the future I want to see all that hard work pay off.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:07 am 
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Starfyre,

Your not addressing me are you? I just happen to be on your side 100%. I have been a part of many groups with full intentions of adding to Uru, and have succeeded in doing so. How have I made an impression I am not for fan created content?

If perhaps you were responding to someone else, just ignore this message.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:46 pm 
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:mrgreen: Relax Bad; their points are likely aimed at yours truly (Tokai). My posts have been against ‘Fan Created Ages’ – there is no paranoia – believe me. I’m a pacific sort of guy at the best of times, and have been around for a while – most of you guys know me from Prologue – and a regular contributor to UL, and D’ni Guilds. My fear is justified and should be obvious – I’ve been through it before – and for a lot of us it was quite painful – we lost Uru Live once before – so give a little leeway, please.

I personally, can be converted to accept ‘Fan Created Ages’ – if it helps make UL survive. All you have to do is convince me that it will work and that it will be to Cyan’s benefit. I haven’t seen anything that convinces me – yet.

I would imagine that Cyan have to balance whether ‘Fan Created Ages’ is going to attract new members or whether your pieces of art are going to be a big turn-off.

Your ‘Fan Created Ages‘might be the backbone of keeping Uru alive – who knows? Then again it could kill it stone dead. One thing you have to remember is there are a multitude of Uru / Myst fans that are indifferent to your new found technological programming tools that are able to create ‘Fan Created Ages’ and simply want to embroil themselves into what once was – believe me – they just want Uru Live back as it was before.

Stand still and you are dead – we know… – programs / games evolve and take advantage of new programming and computer technology – it could be a step too far – or it may just be what keeps UL alive. We simply do not know.

I rather suspect that Cyan will introduce ‘Fan Created Ages’ low key, sort to speak initially if the call is there. And, if it is popular and accepted generally by established and new members alike without any undue complaints, or other problems – then you have a go! It really all depends on the numbers.

Fan Created Ages - will either be a success or they will be a big turn-off. (I’ve been here before) we will have to wait and see. If Cyan implements your home-made Ages – we will visit them – if they don’t implement them – you simply hang up your Age making tools and call it a day…

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:46 am 
Tokai we both know that Cyan at this time has a lot of eggs in their basket. There not going to be able to push out content as fast as they might have been able to if Live had continued 2 years ago. They have a reduced staff.

Fan Created Ages are a way to help ease that burden. I expect at the start maybe one age a month. As time goes on and there making money then later they may pick up that pace. But right now one age a month is going to hurt them. Now with Fan Ages they can say here we have one pur Ages plus one or two Fan Created Ages also to tie you over till we get more content done.

In the end it helps everyone that way. It gets those who want them the fan created ages. Plus it helps Cyan out by lessening the burden on them till such a time when they have the resources to handle it.

I doubt seriously that Fan Created Ages will be created for the entire life of Live. People will get tired of creating them after awhile and I expect our numbers will slowly dwindle. But in the begining though their help is needed.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:51 am 
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Ah.

Well in that case, I would simply point you to the evidence that fan made content can be a huge reason to play a game.

Look at the Steam forums and content to see what kind of interest can be drummed up by allowing fan content. The best part about the Steam stuff is, if you don't like something, you can simply ignore it and it won't invade your gaming experience.

Also I don't know if you guys from Prologue realize this or not, but the whole reason Uru Live is coming back is because of the die hard fans who supported Until Uru, and little else.

We who have been customizing and messing with the game files for over two years are the ones who keep the dream of Uru alive, and it would be a mistake for Cyan to forget about us. It would also be a mistake for any Uru fan to forget that.

I am not saying you should drop to your knees and worship us, but I do ask that we get some form of respect and trust. Even a small amount.

If you are wondering where I am coming form, I missed prologue by days. Once Until Uru came out I was on it. I have never left yet. I was asked to be a Shard admin about 3 months after I first started playing, and began helping the community the same day I accepted that offer.

I have aided in the understanding of editing texture files, I have supported almost all of the groups who have worked hard to make tools and methods to add or edit game files. I have had some of my work added to Until Uru. Even on the D'mala shard.

I am a proffesional artist. I work now as a model maker/prototyper, but I have been a graphic artist, sign maker, and I am presently trying to learn how to be a game designer.

This game has taught me much.

From what I have seen (quite alot BTW) of fan made content and age creation, we are on the verge of some incredible stuff. Not everything will be great, but I would say 75% of fan creation going on right now is highly ambitious and will probably impress you wether you support their efforts or not.

The thing about this thread is that some of the posts are offensive. They alude to intentions of those working on fan content as selfish. That doesn't make any sense. Why should we care about their intentions to make something they are willing to give to this community for free? If their addition is of poor quality, what would make you think they will be applauded for it? Why would Cyan allow just anything into their game without checking the quality of it?

I just feel that your concerns are unjustified. I can't just tell you that Cyan's plans will satisfy you either, I don't know them. No one does except for Cyan. That is why I think we should *Wait and see* what Cyan rolls out with and then pass judgement on the player created content that is allowed on Live.

This is the second time I have made my opinions known. We can argue about this till the cows come home, but it will not change Cyan's minds, nor will it bring any response from them as to their intentions.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:19 am 
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The Uru story is flexible - it's not "cast in stone" - it's all made up. It's fiction. I also regard the story as being in service of the game, not as something existing in some magical place, all by itself. Employees at Cyan write the story, and it's part of the game.

If Cyan wanted to, they could incorporate fan ages into the story. As one example - some comtemporary D'ni explorers got good enough at age creation (perhaps they discovered secret tools and practiced, practiced, practiced!) that they created new ages. That's just one example of the way one could incorporate fan created ages in the "story".

I think the issue is more one of how to incorporate player content into a game that wasn't set up to do so. In games where you get to modify stuff or make new stuff, that seems to be part of the design from day 1. Cyan has traditionally wanted to control everything.

But - things change - remember that Cyan actually put out a survey - a survey, asking what people wanted in the game. I'm not saying that they are going to completely change, but to me this is a demonstration that a company can change. Player created content comes up all the time, and really, it's such a natural extension of gameplay, and of the story. Let's see, we are in a beautiful online world where the art of age writing exists. Some beings get to make ages, but none of the players do? Come on - that's just so... weird. It's so oddly passive. Making new ages is part of what makes the game great, and we don't get to do it?

Not that I necessarily want to do it - there don't seem to be good age creation tools. But, you know, I'd sure like to do a whole lot more customization of, for example Relto, and I'd really like to make some small stuff that had some permanence (doesn't have to be forever) in the gameworld.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:21 pm 
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Fan created ages in other games don't always make sense but they are such a natural fit with this game it seems to me that they could really add a lot to the game whether they are good or not. Even D'ni writers, you will agree, had to start somewhere and some of their ages would have been unstable, non-viable or just plain ugly, as each writer learned to master the art.

Plus, the fact that the DRC abandoned its project several years ago and some renegade explorers stayed behind is part of the lore as well. So it makes perfect sense that some of them would have naturally delved deeper into the art of writing and even with imperfect knowledge and only rudimentary tools might have been unable to resist the temptation to attempt some creations on their own - with a variety of results.

Also, this antagonism towards age creation is totally natural as well. Perhaps the DRC, back into the game again after its painful hiatus, might wish to attempt to prohibit further explorations of the age-writing nature. Perhaps they will have an official procedure for reporting discovery of such ages. Perhaps they might even wish their officially sanctioned explorers to report it whenever they come across books linking to any of these "apprentice" ages - perhaps they will have a special place to secure such books and there might also be consequences for the writer. Who knows?

We all know the ending has not yet been written - but then neither has the middle, or even the end of the beginning. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:29 pm 
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Nyrphame wrote:
We all know the ending has not yet been written - but then neither has the middle, or even the end of the beginning. :)


Very well said Nyrphame!

Fan Ages will happen whether we want them or not, Cyan has already said that. I support fan Ages, I have always dreamed of writing an Age that I could explore with others.

If you don't like the idea of fan Ages, then don't visit them.


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