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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:39 pm 
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Islander wrote:
Tiran wrote:
Islander wrote:
Thing is, I'd be extremely disapointed if they did just that. I also think they'd be foolish to do just that.

It's all well and good creating age-creation tools for people with your knowledge, Tiran, but they represent a tiny, tiny proportion of URU users. I mean, I'd love to create an age, but in terms of 3D modelling, python programming etc. I wouldn't have the foggiest!


I'm sorry but I have to say that you are living in a dream world. :) I like your dream and it would be amazing if it comes true but it's an utopia. Such a tool would cost at least a million $ and would be more complex than the Uru itself. And even the tool would be too complex for a noob.

Actually, the way I see it, your suggested creation tools seem a lot, lot less likely to be created than mine.

Look at it this way: If Cyan put's time and effort into creating tools for your standard, they'll engage the interest of a very, very small number of people - those with the amount of knowledge you have.

If Cyan put in the same time and effort creating tools for my standard, they'll engage the interest of many thousands more.

Economically it makes much, much more sense to enage players with knowledge similar to mine, and it seems economically pointless, to me, to go as high-level as what you suggest.


"His" (actually "My") Age Creation tools already exist.

Also, using PotS for testing isn't a problem unless you are playing with advanced particle systems and water reflections. Most of the graphics stuff is only in the renderer, the object classes are almost 100% identical between PotS and Live.

If it were so easy to make Ages, do you think Cyan would have a hired team of certified developers building everything in 3DS Max and going through the difficult process of exporting it to Uru?

And please: No Pre-fab "drag-drop" content in Uru! :x


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:42 pm 
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One comment. An idea.

What is wrong with the community members who have the skills to do 3d modeling, coding and/or design, creating customizable ages for others to make there own?

These ages could have a puzzle within them that, when unlocked, allows players to customize simple things at first, but as time passes, new more dtailed things could be added or modified.

Things that could be simply edited (based on what I know about Until Uru editing, NOT MOUL) Would be sky color, texture swaping for walls and floors, atmosphere changes(fog and such), additions of simple objects like cones and balls and the ability to change the textures of those.

Future things added (pipe dreaming!). New buildings, terrain editing, foliage choices, and day and night cycles. Just a few examples.

THis would of course, have to be approved by Cyan, and would require many people working together.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:49 pm 
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Again, that's kinda what I'm thinking about, BAD. Like the idea!

Paradox wrote:
And please: No Pre-fab "drag-drop" content in Uru! :x

Why?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:52 pm 
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It would have to be drag+drop, there's no other way for simple explorers like us to learn the art so easily. Our ages will be basic, but elegant in their simplicity. People will go 'Hey wow, you use that like that! That's an awesome idea!', similar to people walking into your Relto and saying 'Hey cool, where'd you get that?'.

Like I've said before, it would be like learning HTML or Java. You look at someone else's code, and take stuff out that you like.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:53 pm 
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Paradox wrote:
"His" (actually "My") Age Creation tools already exist.


I've some insider knowledge because I'm a new member of the team that develops tools for Uru. My opinion is based on my experience with the tools. I didn't want to come forward with the information at first because tools like pyprp were never official allowed by Cyan.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:56 pm 
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I posted this on my blog a while back; many of you will likely find it offensive. My opinion on the subject.

What BAD suggests is possible; but as he says, it would require a LOT of effort from both Age Creators and Cyan.

IMO, if you aren't willing to learn the tools (in this case Blender/3DS Max/etc. and Python) you shouldn't be building Ages.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:36 pm 
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Well, the trouble I have with this is that those aren't the tools in the game. The tools we, as explorers, would encounter are written. We wouldn't be able to make something that advanced and complex.

The best we could ever do would be similar to Bryce in simplicity.

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IMO, if you aren't willing to learn the tools (in this case Blender/3DS Max/etc. and Python) you shouldn't be building Ages.

And there goes half of the userbase. If it isn't contextual, and it's so difficult that it takes a full week of nonstop reading to even figure it out, people aren't going to bother. You can't just make something and expect people to want to use it, no matter how difficult. It's got to appeal to their needs, and people don't need an in-game version of Blender.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:04 pm 
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... Age Creation will never be an "in-game" thing. All modeling/texturing/exporting will have to happen outside of the game.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:06 pm 
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So it'll be entirely non-contextual? I doubt that'll attract much of a crowd. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.


Last edited by Ladon on Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:09 pm 
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The crowd and ordinary masses are not the goal for age creation. They might want to create shirt designs and gimmicks but no average person will spent several weeks worth working time on creating an age for free.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:11 pm 
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Ladon wrote:
And there goes half of the userbase. If it isn't contextual, and it's so difficult that it takes a full week of nonstop reading to even figure it out, people aren't going to bother.


You can't expect something worthwhile to be easy or simple. If you want to write a novel, you have to sit down and actually write.

As for why not drag-and-drop pre-fab...? I don't want to read a hundred books all made from the same 50 words, just arranged slightly differently. Do you? That's the kind of tool you're proposing. An "Easy Novel Maker 2000", where the writer chooses from a short list of "most effective" phrases that someone else chose for you.

It'd be great to have something more intuitive and simple, but the resources to do what you're asking have very rarely proved well-placed in any similar endeavor yet. Computers aren't magic, and you can't program them to make up for a lack of artistic talent or the experience from actually learning how to do something.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:15 pm 
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Paradox wrote:
IMO, if you aren't willing to learn the tools (in this case Blender/3DS Max/etc. and Python) you shouldn't be building Ages.

See, I seriously dislike that attitude. You're looking at two separate things (computer programming/3D modelling and creativity/design) and saying "If you're not prepared to learn the first, you don't deserve to express the second". I think that's wrong, just plain wrong.

Also, there's another factor. In my case, my knowledge of computer modelling is nil, and programming limited to some Basic and Fortran. My computer skills, however, are very sharp. I could probably learn this stuff if I wanted. However, there's little to no chance that I'd ever have the time! This is stuff that takes weeks or months to learn, not hours, and that's time that I just couldn't commit to!

Just because of that, are you going to say "No, sorry, you don't deserve to create your own ages"?

Ladon wrote:
It would have to be drag+drop, there's no other way for simple explorers like us to learn the art so easily. Our ages will be basic, but elegant in their simplicity. People will go 'Hey wow, you use that like that! That's an awesome idea!', similar to people walking into your Relto and saying 'Hey cool, where'd you get that?'.

Like I've said before, it would be like learning HTML or Java. You look at someone else's code, and take stuff out that you like.

See, please explain to me what exactly is wrong with this approach? I think it's a seriously great idea - kudos to you, Ladon.

Ladon wrote:
So it'll be entirely non-contextual? I doubt that'll attract much of a crowd. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

It won't, quite simply. I therefore cannot see why Cyan would bother, myself.

Tiran wrote:
The crowd and ordinary masses are not the goal for age creation...

There's elitism if ever I heard it!

Deledrius wrote:
As for why not drag-and-drop pre-fab...? I don't want to read a hundred books all made from the same 50 words, just arranged slightly differently. Do you? That's the kind of tool you're proposing. An "Easy Novel Maker 2000", where the writer chooses from a short list of "most effective" phrases that someone else chose for you.

But it makes it available to the masses, which makes it econoically more worthwhile, which is good.

Also, if resources permitted, what would be wrong with Cyan offering the tools you want along with these kind of tools? If your argument is based on Cyan only being able to do one set, then it's got to be the 'masses' set that goes forward, simply to make it economically viable.

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Last edited by Islander on Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:17 pm 
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I've been working on an Age for almost three months now. What do I have to show for it?

Basic geometry and some messy textures. This is what I've accomplished in three months.

Am I going to give up now? No way.

Would any normal person keep going after seeing the mess that I do when looking at it in Uru? Probably not.

As Tiran says, most people aren't going to build Ages anyways. We aren't trying to start an elistist club of Age Builders here, I want to make that known.

Even in D'ni, not everyone could write Ages. If people didn't take the time to learn the language of the Descriptive books, they had no hope.

It will be the same in Uru: If you don't take the time to learn the tools, they won't be of any use to you.

Admittedly, the current tools need many improvements. They are very difficult to use for a new users, and the documentation sucks. They will likely be updated and made easier to use for MOUL when Cyan decides how everything will fit together.

Islander wrote:
Also, there's another factor. In my case, my knowledge of computer modelling is nil, and programming limited to some Basic and Fortran. My computer skills, however, are very sharp. I could probably learn this stuff if I wanted. However, there's little to no chance that I'd ever have the time! This is stuff that takes weeks or months to learn, not hours, and that's time that I just couldn't commit to!

Just because of that, are you going to say "No, sorry, you don't deserve to create your own ages"?


What makes you think you'll have time to build an Age?

Don't think that an Age can be built by one person. First concept art is needed. Then you need someone who can model, someone who can texture; you need someone who can program to get the scripts working; you need someone to make music for the Age.

If you can't model or program, there are still lots of way in which you can help out.

Del's analogy is the best I've heard so far. Kudos to him for managing to explain it in such clear terms. :)


Last edited by Paradox on Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:21 pm 
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Paradox wrote:
I've been working on an Age for almost three months now. What do I have to show for it?

Basic geometry and some messy textures. This is what I've accomplished in three months.

This shows even more that this is not the approach to be taking with the public! How many users are going to have the dedication you evidently have? 10? 5? If that.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:22 pm 
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Islander wrote:
Ladon wrote:
It would have to be drag+drop, there's no other way for simple explorers like us to learn the art so easily. Our ages will be basic, but elegant in their simplicity. People will go 'Hey wow, you use that like that! That's an awesome idea!', similar to people walking into your Relto and saying 'Hey cool, where'd you get that?'.

Like I've said before, it would be like learning HTML or Java. You look at someone else's code, and take stuff out that you like.

See, please explain to me what exactly is wrong with this approach? I think it's a seriously great idea - kudos to you, Ladon.

Thanks :) Although I doubt my idea will really make a difference.
I don't think people are understandng what could be created using 'pre-fab' items and surroundings. Look at Eder Delin and Eder Tsogal. Made entirely from things already found in the game, and they're gorgeous. It isn't about the variety of objects, it's about what you do with them.
What you guys are trying to make is what you think needs to be made in order for it to be cool. Trouble is, for anyone who isn't an advanced modeller like us, it's a roadblock. They'll look at it and say 'Nevermind that then, I'll go and do something else'. I know you're trying to focus on a specific audience, and as Myst has proven before, that sometimes doesn't matter because other audiences will like it anyway. But if modellers wanted to model their own ages, they'd whip out MAX or Maya and do it. This is like making a new saw for a carpenter who already has one. What you should be doing is making a saw that everyone else wants.

Who here has ever constructed an elaborate scene out of Lego? Who here has ever watched a film animated with Lego? The possibilities are endless, and everything is prefabricated. I don't see how this is any different. You may have spent three months working on an age and not have anything to show for it, but I've made a four minute cgi brickfilm in under two weeks, and it's won a handful of awards. It isn't the time or detail put into it, it's what it looks like that actually matters.
If people start making ages that look like they were made in MS Paint, I'll throw up.


Last edited by Ladon on Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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