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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:15 pm 
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Point of Clarification:

Tahgtahv's post was written by The H'uru as a group. This group includes Tahgtahv, Paradox, Tiran, Ingiskhan, Deledrius, Adam, Zrax, and many many others. Several of whom have posted here.

Other Clarification:

At this time, to our knowledge, Cyan is not actively working on tools for user created content. They are aware of the projects that The H'uru is working on. It is The H'uru's goal to create tools that Cyan will approve. The posted roadmap covers the stages involved in that. Due to limited resources, which include man hours and finances, it is unlikely Cyan will be able to create their own tools for quite some time (possibly years). The "wardrobe fashion" is a long way off and dependent on the creation of more advanced tools. Without the advanced tools we will be dependent on using Cyan-generated meta-objects. While some people desire that, it is a dependence that would take away from Cyan creating new content and diabolical story lines and puzzles. Thus, it is The H'uru's goal to make multiple levels of tools available with the hope that Cyan will further integrate them and their content as time goes on.

In the mean time.. some minor tools may make themselves available before H'uru studio that Cyan may integrate.. We will see with time.

Any questions?


Last edited by maztec on Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:16 pm 
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Islander wrote:
What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, it would be more logical for Cyan to create tools themselves that could aid many, many users create ages, in a 'wardrobe' style fasion, as Tahgtahv puts it, than for them to help a small few creat tools which are far, far more versatile.


I hope you are aware that Paradox and me are working in the same group as Tagh ... :)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:27 pm 
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Tiran wrote:
Islander wrote:
What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, it would be more logical for Cyan to create tools themselves that could aid many, many users create ages, in a 'wardrobe' style fasion, as Tahgtahv puts it, than for them to help a small few creat tools which are far, far more versatile.


I hope you are aware that Paradox and me are working in the same group as Tagh ... :)


Then PLEASE explain why you're contradicting each other? :shock: :?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:30 pm 
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I don't think there's a contradiction. (Especially since I was only the copy editor.)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:32 pm 
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Maratanos wrote:
Tiran wrote:
Islander wrote:
What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, it would be more logical for Cyan to create tools themselves that could aid many, many users create ages, in a 'wardrobe' style fasion, as Tahgtahv puts it, than for them to help a small few creat tools which are far, far more versatile.


I hope you are aware that Paradox and me are working in the same group as Tagh ... :)


Then PLEASE explain why you're contradicting each other? :shock: :?


They aren't. They are speaking of different levels of the same product. It is a roadmap. Part 1 is the bulk of the work at this time. Part 4 is being worked on, but is limited until Parts 2 and 3 actively take place. Part 5 is a ways off - probably next Fall. Part 6 is not a contradiction but something to come after all the pieces before it.. and so on.

The nature of what is occurring at this time is tools that do not make themselves easily learnable. Instead they are a basis for what is to come, given time. This is unfortunately a product of the unavoidable nature of how the tools are being created. Given time and further Cyan involvement, things will become easier for everyone, developers, beginning users, and end-users alike.


Last edited by maztec on Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:34 pm 
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Maratanos wrote:
Then PLEASE explain why you're contradicting each other? :shock: :?


I don't see a contradiction. Can you please elaborate?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:45 pm 
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maztec wrote:
Any questions?

The only one I can think of is why did it take this long for someone in the know to post something as clear as that?!

Cheers maztec ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:47 pm 
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Islander wrote:
maztec wrote:
Any questions?

The only one I can think of is why did it take this long for someone in the know to post something as clear as that?!

Cheers maztec ;)


Because there is always the hope that people will reach such conclusions on their own.. and because, uhmm.. I make for lazy PR these days, have bigger fish to fry.. Mmm, halibut steaks.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:35 pm 
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Perhaps posting a link to the wiki's letting people see what they have to learn would clear some minds heh.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:57 pm 
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Tahgtahv wrote:
I don't think there's a contradiction. (Especially since I was only the copy editor.)


Quote:
IMO, if you aren't willing to learn the tools (in this case Blender/3DS Max/etc. and Python) you shouldn't be building Ages.


And his extremely ranty blog post

If Paradox is merely talking about the short term... I suggest that be made clearer.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:20 pm 
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Maratanos wrote:
Tahgtahv wrote:
I don't think there's a contradiction. (Especially since I was only the copy editor.)


Quote:
IMO, if you aren't willing to learn the tools (in this case Blender/3DS Max/etc. and Python) you shouldn't be building Ages.


And his extremely ranty blog post

If Paradox is merely talking about the short term... I suggest that be made clearer.


It is unlikely that the creation of a full, unique age will ever not require the ability to create models.

If people do not want ages to look like merely regurgitated fandom, then a purely prefab setup is not necessarily ideal.

That is his point.

Now, keep in mind that Paradox is one of the most dedicated members of the group and one of the youngest. If ranting once in a while lets him blow off a bit of steam, especially when the rant is on his blog, then great.

He is correct. The advanced tools for creating an age will probably never be uber-simple. But, utilization of prefab content will become easier, with time, as prefab content becomes available.

The best thing people can do for now is start generating prefab objects with the intent of importing them as that option becomes available.

*sigh*


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:23 pm 
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Maratanos,

Firstly, that blog post was technically in response to another thread at UO where people were saying that tools that didn't come from Cyan weren't good enough.

Secondly, that post is very much about the short term, and even current status of things. I would like very much for everyone to have an equal opportunity to create Ages, but with the current tools there's no way that that will be possible. (Thus the quote about people not willing to take time to learn to use the current tools) If you aren't willing to learn the current tools, you shouldn't be building Ages.

Even when a better and much improved toolset becomes available (which will hopefully be soon in the future), it will still require a little bit of effort to learn to use it to its full capacity. (Although I'm betting it will be a LOT easier to use than what we've got right now).

I'm sorry to seem so angry with everyone; but I hate the current tools for their lack of usability, I hate that we can't do anything about the lack of usability, and I hate that people complain about something over which we really have no control. This morning it felt as if I was launching all of my energy against a brick wall trying to explain things; now I see that neither side was willing to accept anything from the other side and both sides were being extremely defensive.

Generally this subject causes me grief. I feel like I've put lots of my free time and effort into trying to make and improve these tools, and all that I hear is complaints. (hmm, I think I know how Cyan feels right now)

maztec: young and dedicated eh? :lol:


Last edited by Paradox on Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:29 pm 
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One of the main things I was being defensive about was this:

Paradox wrote:
If you aren't willing to learn the current tools, you shouldn't be building Ages.

Now, if that had been "If you aren't willing to learn the current tools, you won't be building Ages" simply due to a lack of knowledge, it would have been OK. As it stands, it sounds like a rather nasty attitude to me, and that is what got my back up.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:30 pm 
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Glad to see H'uru being more public.

I have observed that when dealing with creative people, focusing on negativity demoralizes.

I am glad to see that H'uru plans to take a balanced approach to development.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:16 am 
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I found this interview with Rand Miller about fan created Ages on Uru Live. It's at: http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/28/joyst ... an-worlds/

Here's the relevant part:

"Interviewer: Explain how players will build ages. How far along are you to making that happen?

Rand Miller: Well to begin with, we want to give people the same tools we have. We've got a lot of expertise and experience, so our ages can get pretty sophisticated, but it doesn't mean that we can't make those same tools available to some people.

We're always amazed at what our fans are able to accomplish, frankly, and by making those tools available, I think we'll be even more surprised. We've held back on that because we want to make sure we've got the final version of the engine, so we're not switching those tools up on people so they don't lose their work. But that'll be the first step. Essentially what we're creating in the mythology of all this is a writer's guild.

People can learn to write ages using the tools, and they'll write ages and become better and better at it. And then we even want a guild that facilitates that, that lets them explore their own ages and keep them somewhat separate from ours but with ways to get to them.

But eventually while they're doing that, we want to improve the tools as well, so you don't have to be quite so sophisticated to build the worlds. And later on down the line, it's much easier to say, "I can take this piece of this world, and this one of this one, and this one of this one, and make my own space that feels much more personalized." And that's the stuff that we'll work on as well.

When will people be able to start building ages?

Rand Miller: Some of it is resource-based. We would like to release those tools after the first six months -- and there are pieces of that that are already being put in place behind the scenes. We're trying to set up some structures with people, and there are some fans that already kind of know about that.

Yeah, that's a very exciting aspect of all of this."

It sure is! Thoughts?


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