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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:09 pm 
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Maybe the forum should have a warning system. Every time you hit the Submit button, large red text flashes the message, "Read your submitted post for possible auto censoring." :P

I like the idea of having "[edited for language]" added whenever the system changes a word because then, even if it's a "false positive," there's a better chance it will get the attention of the poster and they have the opportunity to change it. (Maybe it could be in a different colored text?)

Correcting the word, "expletive" (hard liquor drink) should be a relatively easy fix. Just remove the wildcards that follow the four letter word and add the plural of the four letter word with wildcards following it. That should pretty much cover all of the possibilities (at least all the ones I can think of).

Does the system not allow for exceptions? So, you could say, prevent this "word" and all the possible words with "word" in it, except for "wordplay." That would probably be the most ideal situation.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:19 pm 
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No, all the rules do is "If it matches that, then replace it with this"; there's no "But not these" option. Also, there's no in-built method of changing the colour of the text: As the substitution is done at the point of display, using any BBCode in the substitution simply results in the BBCode itself being displayed as it doesn't get parsed as part of the text of the post.

It's not in the core phpBB (though there may be 3rd party plug-in/mods/extensions or whatever they're calling them now that would do this), but what seems good to me would be if it were possible to set an "action" for each word in the list, e.g. "Reject" for outright profanities that won't let you post until you edit, then "Replace" for the lesser cases that might simply cause offence in more limited cases.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:27 pm 
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Mac_Fife wrote:
Ah, janaba, there are slightly different issues here: First, there's the case of words that don't belong on a family friendly forum and need to (somehow) be removed; the suggestions above try to deal with that case only. Then there's the case of Donahoo's Parties which are a "false positive" - a word has been wrongly picked out because the filter is deficient - and a different solution is needed there, probably refinement of the Word list and use of wildcards. The G--/Atrus one is maybe different again, with there being a question about whether a rule is even needed and if it is then is the substitution really an appropriate one.
This sounds like the best solution and most appropriate handling IMHO, great ... :D

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:32 pm 
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I think a major problem with the system is that the end user does know about the sensor until they trigger the sensor. They should be a 'rejection' like Mac said and maybe a 'warning if you submit this, G*d will be replaced with 'Artus'. The warning will allow end users to take the appropriate edits(like replacing God with Yahvo if needed). This would also make sure nothing is changed without the users concent.

Now I would like to know what Cyan thinks of this.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:37 pm 
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My opinion is that the censoring here (just like the chat censoring in Uru, or perhaps censorship in general) is completely ridiculous and ought to be removed without replacement. Not only does it clearly do damage in various ways, as already detailed in this thread, I also fail to see what it achieves. How does replacing an expletive by “expletive” make it any better? :?:

If you don’t want family-unfriendly posts on your forum, then you need to refuse entire posts, not just replace a few words within them. And reliably detecting family-unfriendly posts is far more involved than screening them for certain words, not only in terms of the false positives already mentioned, but also in terms of false negatives – I bet any sufficiently experienced troll is perfectly capable of writing an inflammatory post without hitting any of the words in the censor list.

I don’t know, maybe it’s a cultural difference. I get the impression that Americans tend to have sensitivities in this regard that seem strange to me. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:42 pm 
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It gets worse, Christian. The trend in United States colleges today is all the rage about "microagression" and "trigger points" to infantilze students here in an era of Political Correctness more severe now than even in the 80s and 90s such that freedom of speech is losing the right to exchange ideas for the fear of offense, which is what those very rights are supposed to protect. Students become more protected and less prepared as adults as a result. It's disappointing. When I was young, I was certain that knowledge and progress would bring enlightenment. Not so much.

On topic, women have freely and openly used "-boob-" for years now as part of acceptable language, including broadcast television and among mixed company in social and "family friendly" settings. It's a refreshing twist to oppressive times. Young schoolgirls from Pennsylvania recently won a lawsuit, which the United States Supreme Court thankfully refused to hear on appeal, that allows students to wear an “I (heart) -boobies-” bracelet to school in support of breast cancer awareness. So even *if* “-boob-” was literally used to refer to a woman’s body part, let's end the PC now and make a determination upon context. Zero tolerance time after time has proved unworkable. What I don’t understand is how everyone can decry PC, yet it still exists. Censoring “-cocktail-” is idiocy which pretty much defines the lack of imagination inherent in computer software that does exactly what its told all the time with no component for creativity. The only thing that censoring “-cocktail-” does is make people think of [the other thing], which would not have occurred to the reader otherwise, accomplishing the opposite of what was intended.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:03 am 
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Yes, let's stop letting a program edit our posts and have the words be judged by the context in which they're used. (OU mirror post)

The male chicken of the Walk expletive expletive his head, sipped his expletive and let out a hearty "male chicken a doodle doo". ;)

The embedded links are meant to demonstrate that these words are commonly used in a non-vulgar context.

Edit: But the system has altered the links so that they all lead to the Expletive wiki page. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:43 am 
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Y'know, this whole thread is going to look extremely odd if the Word censor were ever removed - because the posts go into the database the way they're submitted, not as edited. So with the filter removed all posts will instantly be shown as they were typed.

Actually that maybe does present a problem, in that there will be two years of posts that have been passively moderated by the filter and might suddenly come up on someone's radar as "offensive".

In all of this, I'm trying to keep in mind what it might mean for Cyan in terms of "workload": There's clearly an issue that effort = money and there is a point where you simply say "it's not worth it".

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:02 am 
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As a sidenote, there’s a section in this forum where censoring is, for obvious reasons, completely useless. Since the reduction of moderators, that section has been essentially unmoderated; nonetheless, you’d be hard pressed to find any expletives there.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:33 am 
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English is clearly the preferred language of the profane ;). The non-English Forums will rely on reports to trigger moderation.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:06 am 
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Wow!!! Good Morning everyone ... The development on this thread is so exciting ... :P

I am completely excited by Christian's and JWPlatt's statements related to the double standards or latent ambiguity folks not only in the US (mostly unconsciously of course) are approaching and evaluating things and happenings etc., and how in this way have been giving away their power and all of their freedoms more and more, which is ok for a time, for having the experiences and new insights, which of course ends with becoming aware of it and choosing different directions and coping mechanisms in life etc. etc. ... :)

So, yes, indeed 'it is not worth it' ... never ... ever ... to give up one's Freedom of speech, of expression, Freedom as a whole for anything, esp. not for trivialities, not for seemingly important issues, not for anything ... Of course, Freedom is an inside virtue, a certain power, and there's no need to fight for it, for anything, it's a state of being, a certain approach to and way of life, but being aware and taking a firm stance on, not against, sth is ok and has an effect in the long run, sometimes even sooner lol ... 8)

Korovev, thanks for pointing out that more freedom leads to more balance, more room or space for creative expression and development, more room for friskiness, exuberance and follies even ... no need to break all those rules and regulations etc., which is so fun for some lol ... :mrgreen:

Ok, very nice and interesting, however ... :D

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:45 am 
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Mac_Fife wrote:
English is clearly the preferred language of the profane ;).
Of course, but it has the Unfortunate Implication that non-English people are better at self-regulating (or that English is the preferred language for profanities) :P :P

As for the forum filter, in my opinion the most likely fix – as it’s unlikely that Cyan will remove it entirely – would be to replace all substitutions with (full or partial) asterisks; it’s the more flexible solution and it even fit some customs like the Jewish one (e.g. what looks less silly, “Atrus bless you”, “[edited for language] bless you” or “G** bless you”?).

Also, it should be possible to insert a compound word before a risqué one, so that only that compound can pass through, e.g. “...; frocktail -> frocktail; frock -> *****; ...”

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:22 pm 
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Words are not born offensive. They're created to improve communication. It's only when they're repeatedly misappropriated and misused for the purpose of abusive language that they become offensive. If I start telling people to "go cavern yourself" and the phrase gets picked up and commonly used with the same abusive intention, then the word "cavern" would become known as an offensive word.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:43 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Also, it should be possible to insert a compound word before a risqué one, so that only that compound can pass through, e.g. “...; frocktail -> frocktail; frock -> *****; ...”

Hmm... I'll need to test that proposal - it presumes that the checks are performed in some predictable and controllable order. Since there is no re-ordering option in the control panel, even if they are done in list creation order (rather than, say alphabetical order) then it might be difficult to add a whitelist word after a blacklisted word has been created.

Edit: Nope, doesn't work. The list gets reordered alphabetically in the control panel so the substitution for frock (or frock*) takes precedence over the entry for frocktail. Nice idea though.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:47 pm 
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I think the sensor is important. A couple of times I have seen people write angry rants they will probably regret. The sensor takes the 'edge' off these rants till the mods can fix things. Having said that I do think that the sensor is overzealous like people have pointed out. I do wonder why Cyan has a problem with replacing offending words with asterisks. Does anyone know?

P.S. Yes I know the asterisks will not fix problems like 'God bless you', I'm just wondering.

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