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 Post subject: "Genesis"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:24 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:44 am 
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Nice sentiment...this is what the Guilds exist for and are helping do now wonderfully. So I would suggest you join in with their efforts and see the dawn of the new ages with the people who are working to make them happen. But good to see the enthusiasm indeed.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:54 am 
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Genesis allowed is not! Is planet forbidden! ... Take permits many. Money, MORE!

I was just discussing with my colleagues the other night of an age like Genesis. With various seasonal climates.
Good Luck on yer endevor. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:57 am 
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Great work.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:12 am 
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"Genesis" is not a recruiting attempt for a collaborative project?

More of a vague idea that the best fan age writers should work together on a debut age, a highly detailed one?

I have a lot of questions for you.

Firstly, have you noticed that there are already group projects going on?

Ahra Pahts, Yinfara, Search for the Springs of Kehlbet, Zephyr Cove?

Have you noticed the Book of Deux? A one-person project that is the closest any fan has gotten to matching Cyan's standard of detail?

You ask where the activity is, and it is there in the GoW. You ask why there isn't anything grander in the works - since this is a long-awaited dream of the Uru community - and I would have to give the sobering answer that our community is not that big.

It's a devoted community. A passionate community. A close-knit community. A wonderful community. But it is a rather small community with only a limited number of people interested in creating UCC.

We can talk all we want about creating work that is beautiful and stunning, but we are bound by the limitations of our people, time, and talent.

How do we decide how to allocate fan efforts?

How do we decide which projects to scrap, or who should work on what?

If we put all our best GoW people into one production, one Genesis, won't all the other ones suffer?

Cyan, for MO:UL, chose to create a lot of small ages, one per month (more or less) instead of concentrating effort on making one really spectacular one and releasing nothing else in the months leading up to that one age. Even their one big age, Minkata, didn't actually have all that much content in it. It was more like a small or medium-sized age spread out over a lot of empty terrain. What was wise about the approach Cyan chose was that it parceled out "good content" a little at a time and kept people from getting too bored. It also allowed for a great deal of variety. What was bad about it was the general feeling of "Isn't it a shame we aren't getting any new big ages?"

But the reality was that Cyan was on a budget and they had only so much work they could do per month. We, too, are on a budget of sorts - we have a limited number of GoW people, and they are only working on Uru intermittently. Uru age creation is not a job for fans, it's a hobby, one we must fit into the cracks between work, school, etc.

We will have to confront the same problems that Cyan did, we have only so many people and so much talent. We will need to decide (as Cyan had to) how we want to use those limited resources.

One solution is to pool our talent into one project. That one project would be an amazing project of great quality. It would indeed be a great thing to behold.

However, if we were to make one great age, with all our best writers, what would happen in the meantime? If no other good ages are being released while that one amazing one is in production, would people become bored, discouraged, disillusioned in the months leading up to the release of that one age? Would they feel like nothing good is happening?

Would it, indeed, be better, to spread out our talent onto multiple group and individual projects so that something of at least some merit would be released on a frequent basis?

We could, I imagine, instead of working on one spectacular age, diffuse our effort into a steady production pipeline that produces one small but fairly-good quality age every two or three weeks.

Or: instead of making one huge age to be released all at once, start with a small part of that one age and expand it a little more every few weeks. In this way, the end result is the same (we have a really impressive age to show people) but it builds more excitement over a longer length of time and allows us to have at least part of it open almost immediately after the UCC 3ds max tools are released.

There are differing views on all of this, of course. I am not trying to criticize, merely to raise questions. I will say that the idea of "Genesis" - a really great big detailed fan age, is a wonderful idea, but it is not the only option which shows promise.

The number of GoW people we have is limited. They can be organized in many different ways. How do we find the best way to use the people we have access to?

I have no idea. There are trade-offs no matter what we do.

Has it occurred to you how GoW videos show snatches of a bunch of different worlds intercut, indeed - most videos promoting Uru cut between a wide range of different scenes? This is effective visually. Suppose we made three or four highly detailed small ages instead of one big high-quality one, Tsogahl-sized ages, each very different from the others - and then created a promo looping between them, a promotion emphasizing that the Uru fan community has been making great ages, not just one great age. We'd neglect, of course, to make clear in the advert how small those 3 or 4 ages are - we'd show each only long enough to show how detailed they are, several shots of each - and allow the viewer to leave the video with the impression that perhaps there is more good UCC in MO:RE than actually exists.

Which is the more effective promotional method for MO:RE? I'm not sure.

So what I'm asking, what arrangement of UCC production - what allocation of fan talent - will be most effective in holding players' interest and in promoting Uru to those who are not yet players?

I want to hear your opinions on this issue - what you think our best options are.

Genesis is the story of creation. There are many ways we could create, many ways to bring growth to MO:RE.

So what should our collective Genesis, our first steps of creation in MO:RE, be?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:31 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:32 pm 
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Shorah!

Could I ask you to dispense with the posting your messages as pictures thing? It makes quoting you unnecessarily difficult. Thanks!

You asked about mentions of projects such as the Book of D'eux, on forums:

I found those on just the most preliminary search for "D'eux" on these forums, and on Google.

Now, I recognize that a newcomer who has never hard of D'eux isn't going to know to look for his name, so the above examples are a bit unfair, even though you asked for them. I do think that we need to make the work that is being done easier to find. But that has proven to be especially difficult on this forum because posts slide into obscurity if they are not stickied, and there is not (to my knowledge) any sort of directive to keep the current projects that have been mentioned here stickied.

The Guild of Messengers has sought out other approaches to resolve this problem. If you have some additional ideas on how to help, I'd love for you to open up a discussion at the GoMe forum about it. I understand that you've registered an account there...

First, the GoMe has Rel.to, an index and forwarding system for Myst/Uru sites and projects. All of the keywords for sites indexed on rel.to can also be used to link directly to those sites. http://rel.to/deux will link you to the Book of D'eux. I've tried to promote Rel.to and ensure that people know about it, but that has been a challenge. My requests for feedback on how I can improve the site have gone largely ignored (such as http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15759 ). The announcement for the site has long been buried in obscurity within the bowels of General Discussion. ( http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15273 )

Second, the GoMe has an RSS feed. Anyone in the community who wants to make a relevant announcement is invited to bring it to our attention, and it goes onto the feed. We also have reporters who bring information from the other sites to our attention. We're hoping that other sites will pick up the RSS feed, and we have plans for an improved feed system in the future that should make this a more appealing option. The latest RSS updates are always on the GoMe front page, and on the front page of Rel.to as well.

Third, the GoMe has a newsletter. Subscriptions for the newsletter are still available, and once a month (or thereabouts), subscribers will receive a nice PDF about current stories and projects in the community. Eventually we'll have all of the existing newsletters that have been sent out archived on our website.

So, as you can see, we're already doing what we can to raise awareness of community projects. Your posts suggest that it is not enough... so I hope that we'll have you on board to help and to offer some concrete suggestions on what we can do better.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:54 pm 
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Shorah Marten and company,

I apologize for the inconvenience of the image posts - they just felt IC, and were easy little backgrounds to make to give the posts a little more depth.

Anyway, I think you have actually hit the nail on the head with your reply, Marten. The D'eux post you mentioned was on the second page of the Writers Forums, after posts such as "Silly Brown Cube Age", no less then three "Journal Texture" topics, and numerous other skybox and water texture topics. The last post in the topic was over three months ago, and his last update on his site was again three months ago. I have had three different people retort and use D'eux as an example - clearly helping to emphasize my point.

He has been muddled into obscurity, has had so little encouragement, and has had so little coverage that he seems to have all but vanished. Anything covering him would have, as you said, "...been buried in obscurity within the bowels of General Discussion..." as people have discussed, debated, and generally muddled their way through - having very little to do other than "wait and see".

So I feel that if a new Age is supported and brought to the attention of the general Uru populace, not as a Work In Progress, but as a malleable entity which could be shaped by their past actions and their present decisions they would find a growing interest in it.

Now, to come back to the news topic you raised, Marten, I do know of the Newsletter and I have (just recently) subscribed. However, I will have to wait for a month for any news, and I wonder what the news will be of this month? Looking at the past posts and other forums it seems more than likely to contain speculations and another month of waiting for something to happen. I feel we should give them something to watch, at least "give them games, and they shall love you for it."

Giving the people something to watch, such as the building of Eh'ko, may entertain them for a short while, or give them an Age which they could make suggestions for, to debate over, and to forge together, would give them an experience - and let them know that a little part of their history went into the building of the age.

So, perhaps we should start with a simple question - if an Age were built, what would people like to name it?
"Genesis"?
"Tchah-p'Ter 'Wun?"
"Pizza?"
Suggestions?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:47 pm 
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P'ie :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:39 am 
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Sounds like a pretty ambitious project. At the GOW we were trying to build things up naturally and in steps. As the tools get more refined our ages have improved as well.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just let you know that things are progressing. 2 hours of independent search may not get you much info, but asking the right people the right questions sure would fill you in, as you are now seeing happen here.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:14 am 
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So, perhaps we should start with a simple question - if an Age were built, what would people like to name it?
"Genesis"?
"Tchah-p'Ter 'Wun?"
"Pizza?"
Suggestions?


I think the content would (to Me ) be the most important, I like that parchment and the font and perhaps to see such things bound up like a book in a Garden/jungle age that would contain some clues to a suggested path that would lead to various puzzles and would allow you to see a story of some kind unfold. or to find the various pages of a book that you have to put together within the age and that in itself could be one of the puzzles. the possibilities are endless.

I often wondered what kind of ages we would find if some of the books in the Myst library where to be restored or if the books in Phil's Relto where to become accessible

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:05 pm 
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Marten wrote:
I do think that we need to make the work that is being done easier to find. But that has proven to be especially difficult on this forum because posts slide into obscurity if they are not stickied, and there is not (to my knowledge) any sort of directive to keep the current projects that have been mentioned here stickied.

This is a problem. As dicussion trails off, posts slide to the bottom. At some point many threads are closed due to inactivity. That splits up a thread as a new post has to be started to continue. Such posts need bumps. Marten, I bump some GoC posts every now and then just to bring them back to the top. Forums that have rules about double and triple posting make this more difficult. There I have to wait until some one posts or ask someone to give it bump.

Marten wrote:
First, the GoMe has Rel.to, an index and forwarding system for Myst/Uru sites and projects. All of the keywords for sites indexed on rel.to can also be used to link directly to those sites. http://rel.to/deux will link you to the Book of D'eux. I've tried to promote Rel.to and ensure that people know about it, but that has been a challenge. My requests for feedback on how I can improve the site have gone largely ignored (such as http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15759 ). The announcement for the site has long been buried in obscurity within the bowels of General Discussion. ( http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15273 )

So, I bumped the post. Hopefully in a week or so someone else will bump it.

Marten wrote:
So, as you can see, we're already doing what we can to raise awareness of community projects. Your posts suggest that it is not enough... so I hope that we'll have you on board to help and to offer some concrete suggestions on what we can do better.

Well, Shevek ran into what any noob or returning fan runs into. I hit it now and then and I try to be on the important forums at least twice a month. It just shows that as a community we don't have it all together. But neither does most of the rest of the world... We each do what we can. I just ask for the community to do their thing and help out where I can.

BTW, Martin, thanks for your participation. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:33 pm 
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Marten wrote:
But that has proven to be especially difficult on this forum because posts slide into obscurity if they are not stickied, and there is not (to my knowledge) any sort of directive to keep the current projects that have been mentioned here stickied.


This is a thing we are looking for what is possible on these forums. Not every thread can become a stickied one, but I agree there is some major information who deserves a place where ppl can find the information in an easy way.
All suggestions in this are welcome. But for that I think we need to start a new topic.

Bumping posts can be done if a topic is not that old. We do not have a timelimit for that, but I think it is understandable that a one year old thread is not the right one to be bumped.

So again it would be great if we can find a way that we can easy find all the important information on these forums. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:16 pm 
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Last edited by semplerfi on Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:27 pm 
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Veralun wrote:
So again it would be great if we can find a way that we can easy find all the important information on these forums.

It would be a start if just one admin, or one moderator who believes access to information is important relentlessly nags an admin, could acknowledge and fix the oft-reported broken but never fixed search index which got munged during the server move. So much information is now unsearchable and unfindable because this has gone unfixed. Please rebuild the search index. :roll:

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