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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:15 pm 
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This is such an awesome improvement and somehow overdue, Chloe, and to implement this scroll function for the player lists would be just the icing on that cake ... Thanks for the idea and the efforts ... :P

ChloeRhodes wrote:
Hint Hint To shard owners with a large number of players that can test these new changes. You know where to find me 8)
This absolutely sounds like a candidate for the Minkata test shard, but Gehn shard or TOC Moul test parties sound equally exciting ... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:09 pm 
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The player list needs to just go away :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:22 pm 
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AdamJohnso wrote:
The player list needs to just go away :evil:
Go away????? ... :lol: Could you be more precise, please? ... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:04 pm 
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Vanish, kaboom, not be there anymore ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Awww, and I thought it was comfortable and nice to know and see who's online and where (age/neighbor/buddy, so, not really where, but who), and to see who's in your close vicinity as well as to be able to directly talk to someone without having to remember and write down a difficult name etc. and all this without having to constantly open the big KI again and again ... I mean, do you have anything else in mind to compensate the information and comfort provided, a real alternative solution? ... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:44 pm 
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AdamJohnso wrote:
The player list needs to just go away :evil:
Adam, you want to make the player list go away for everybody, including people that LIKE to see all the other avvies in an Age, who LIKE to know which of their Buddies are online?
Wouldn't it be nicer to instead give people who dislike the player list, like yourself, the option of simply turning it off?


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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:47 pm 
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'twould be nice to be able to turn it off.
(I like checking to see if my Buddies or other acquaintances are online.)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Cully Barger wrote:
AdamJohnso wrote:
The player list needs to just go away :evil:
Adam, you want to make the player list go away for everybody, including people that LIKE to see all the other avvies in an Age, who LIKE to know which of their Buddies are online?
Wouldn't it be nicer to instead give people who dislike the player list, like yourself, the option of simply turning it off?


To do that, you can do like every other online game except Uru and check the big interface (in this case, the BigKI). But, the lists do fill a nice spot on the side when the BigKI opens, so I suppose a checkbox in settings that defaults to off wouldn't be such a big deal. If you must know one thing about my game design philosophy, it's "take lessons from other games that are/were wildly more successful than Uru." (This doesn't mean compromise the premise of Uru, just take lessons from other games about interacting with the user)

Now if the open source 3ds Max plugin didn't suck quite so much... 3ds Max 7 hates the latest AMD drivers. :/

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:34 pm 
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Why must it default to off?

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:17 am 
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I'm thinking in terms of simplicity. One of the trends I'm noticing (and approve of very much) is minimizing game HUDs. The Mini-KI is what I would describe as Uru's HUD. So, I'm thinking by default it should be more even more minimal--when there's a nontrivial amount of people in the age, these lists are long and take up lots of valuable screen real estate. It's also easy to click on someone's name and go into PM mode by accident (ugh)! It's all really bizarre after playing other games.

I am open to leaving the lists in however. Cully Barger makes a good point that a good many are accustomed to this and actually want it.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:55 am 
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Ever see this? http://www.despair.com/tradition.html :)

I believe Adam's original intuition is correct. A well-designed KI does not need AGE PLAYERS in the standard minimal KI format, at least not in the way it is currently implemented.

Yes, there needs to be a way to see which of your buddies are online - but it doesn't need to be on screen all the time*. Currently we rely upon watching the BUDDIES list to see if a friend has logged on or logged off, because Uru lacks login/logout notifications. Add notifications, and you really only need to check your BUDDIES list once at login, which means it no longer needs to be ever-present in mini-KI mode.

There also needs to be a way to see which players will be able to hear you if you use voice and local typed chat. In Uru today, "> <" appears around nearby players in AGE PLAYERS. Instead of that, I think it would make a lot more sense to just have "NEARBY PLAYERS" and dispense with having the names of people over 500m away from me on my screen all the time. If I want to know if someone is in the Age but not nearby, then I can pop open the Big KI mode and see who's around.

The only purpose I'm aware of in selecting a name from AGE PLAYERS is when you want to talk to that person privately. (That happens quite a bit during the All Guilds and Groups meetings.) In that case, you're going to be taking your hand off of your mouse after you select the player, and put it onto the keyboard in order to type the actual message. Right?

Well, instead of targeting the avatar with the mouse and then chatting with the keyboard, you may as well do both with the keyboard. Problem is, Uru doesn't make this very easy, especially when trying to talk with someone with a long or difficult to type name. So we players have a habit of using the mouse to target. We've adapted to a bad system. That is not a good reason to keep the bad system! It is a reason to fix it!

Here's an example of a BETTER system, leaning upon Adam's principle of "take lessons from other games ... more successful than Uru": Many multiplayer games these days have targeting autocomplete for conversations. This is in two stages. First, type "/w" and the system immediately goes "Aha, he's whispering!" and kicks you into a clear and unambiguous "whisper" mode. So if you're a fumblefingers like me, and you've typed "/q" instead of "/w", you don't see the mode change and you immediately know you need to fix that. Next, you can start typing the name of the person you want to whisper to, and if you type "ho" and "Hoikas" is the only person among the room and your buddies list whose name starts with "ho", bam, it suggests that as an autocomplete. If there are several matches, you might be presented with a dropdown list, or pressing the "tab" key might spin you through the various options.

* yes, I'm aware that the list(s) can be collapsed/expanded.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:55 am 
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Thanks for returning the favor of clarifying Adam’s intent, Marten! :) What you’re saying – redesigning the KI interface – sounds very sensible (in fact, is what I should be doing, as an HCID student… do I sense a master thesis topic coming up? ;)). It’s a far cry from just “needs to go away, kaboom”, which I took as “… without replacement (other than the existing Big KI)”, to which I would be vehemently opposed.

AdamJohnso wrote:
If you must know one thing about my game design philosophy, it's "take lessons from other games that are/were wildly more successful than Uru." (This doesn't mean compromise the premise of Uru, just take lessons from other games about interacting with the user)

You know, in a broader context (and ignoring the parenthetical qualification for a moment), that kind of reasoning always makes me a bit queasy – maybe without good reason, but still. There are reasons why I like Uru, and why I don’t like many other games. There are also reasons why Uru was a commercial failure, and other games were successful. I suspect there may be some overlap between those reasons. I’m afraid that the stuff that made other games successful is also what makes them less enjoyable to me, and I don’t want that in Uru.

That was the personal, irrational point of view that I just had to get out. :) In more objective terms: if you learn one thing in HCID, it’s that you need to know your users. One size doesn’t fit all. What works for World of Warcraft players may not necessarily work for Uru players.

In the case of good interface design, at any rate, it shouldn’t be hard to ease such fears on a case by case basis with good prototypes and thorough testing.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:10 pm 
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This is just me spitballing, but why not make the Age Player list a pull down list. IE it's not opened until the player physically opens it. You might have for example a small static bar just below the Mini KI face, with an arrow next to it. That would be the list in it's contracted form. Clicking on the bar, then causes it to expand to the current list we have today, and then clicking on the bar again would cause it to close?

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:47 pm 
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Course, another solution is to stop the lists opening every time someone speaks/links in.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan Content
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:10 pm 
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I know things are taking longer than expected.
Sorry for the delays everyone. I'm getting very close but still not quite there yet.


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