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 Post subject: Thanks janaba1!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:16 am 
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Shorah janaba1!

Many thanks for those links to RAWA information! My collection of his writings has now been updated! :D

(For those interested, the book is in my Relto Library and is called The Watson Letters.)

(And no, I'm not providing a direct link--go explore!!!)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:43 pm 
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You're very much welcome, Ainia ... What a beautiful book that is and what an astounding resource of great information ... It is continually growing this whole marvellous Uru/D'ni treasure chest you're providing us with in that beautiful environment along with those soothing ambient Relto sounds ... I also have the feeling that it is becoming more and more stable ... Great job ... :P

Besides that 'The D'ni Desk Reference' in general is an awesome historical resource as well ... :D

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:29 am 
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Okay.. it has stayed in my head, the fact that you cannot create a linking book nor a descriptive book to the Age that you live in... if no such descriptive book already exists, you simply cannot link home, should you ever find a linking book to another Age.

The OBVIOUS problem this creates, is that it becomes highly unlikely that ANY culture has or will ever 'invent' the Art. Because-- think about it, even if by happenstance you discover a means of writing a descriptive book... if you ever GO to that Age, you can never come home. Can't make sure the Age is stable before you go there, can't come back & tell others about it...

DOES this mean the Art itself, is divinely inspired?


What this does mean, tho, is that the Ronay probably didn't "invent" the Art. Because, if they could travel back & forth between Garternay and the Ages they wrote.. that means, they HAD possession of a descriptive book for Garternay-- tho it is impossible for them to have written it, themselves.

Sooo---- according to the D'ni Wikia, it is 'likely' that Garternay was the original home of the Ronay, or their ancestors. WHAT THAT MEANS... is that historically, there probably WAS a real Yahvo-- perhaps a God, perhaps just someone from another Age who knew the Art --- who linked into Garternay, met the Ronay, taught them the Art, and gave them the Garternay book as a gift!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:03 am 
Almost yes to your post, but linking books can always be made; you simply need to be in an Age to make one. Also, it is highly likely that the Ronay did not invent the Art. Rather, what we call the Art is probably the Ronay reverse-engineering Bah'ro linking abilities.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:27 am 
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DLordofTime wrote:
Almost yes to your post, but linking books can always be made; you simply need to be in an Age to make one.


It's my understanding that without an existing descriptive book, a linking book wouldn't function.. this is why, when you burn a descriptive book, ALL the linking books to that Age cease to function-- because a linking book does NOT function independently-- it requires a 'working' descriptive book.

In the Book of Atrus, Gehn even tells Atrus that linking books contain the 'essence' of the descriptive book, and that's why they don't require a lot of detail written into them.. because they refer back to the descriptive book for the Age in question.

Of course.. ANY time you use Gehn as a reference, you have to question his reliability!! BUT...making a linking book is probably an elementary-level skill, taught early-on in the Guild of Writers... so Gehn's knowledge of it is probably sound...

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Rather, what we call the Art is probably the Ronay reverse-engineering Bah'ro linking abilities.


I'd have to question your use of the word 'probably'. Tho it is possible, still.... there is ZERO historical basis to suggest the Art was reverse-engineered from the Bahro. There are Ronay legends, tho, that claim the Art was brought to Garternay by an outside 'writer'-- and legends are OFTEN founded on genuine historical events.

In FACT.. the D'ni wikia suggests the Bahro may have been the original inhabitants of the D'ni Cavern. It's also suggested that Noloben is the 'home Age' of the Bahro. Since there are linking books that lead to Noloben and D'ni... that suggests the Ronay or the D'ni wrote the descriptive books for Noloben or D'ni, discovered the Bahro there, saw them as inferior 'book worlders' and enslaved them.

Bottom line: what little historical info we have, suggests that the Ronay already had the Art before they first encountered the Bahro.

I think if the ancient Ronay encountered the Bahro before they had the Art, they wouldn't see the Bahro as their inferiors... the whole basis of calling them 'beast people' is centered on the fact that the bahro were 'book-worlders'.. beings that inhabited an Age that was written by a 'superior' Ronay.


I think its far more likely the legends have a kernel of truth--- the idea of a historical 'Yahvo' who was an author with access to a Garternay book, and who tutored the Ronay on this ability, seems more consistent with the facts we know about the Art.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:07 pm 
Then what about the logical 'first Age'? How does one get there? Why should there be a first? Sorry, but assuming that linking books require a descriptive book first is grounded in the BoA, which as we know isn't the most reliable source of knowledge. There is no logical reason to assume that any Age should be 'special' in that no linking book can be written there.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:30 pm 
Ah, here we go. Found what I was looking for. You can find this in 'The Watson Letters' on allthingsuru.com

Rawa wrote:
A Linking Book to Myst only requires having been on Myst to write it. He needs no knowledge of the Book of D’ni. (And despite David Wingrove’s* statements to the contrary, he doesn’t even need knowledge of the Myst Book for that matter.)


The comment about Wingrove implies that no, the linking book does not contain a specific reference to the descriptive book, else Rawa would be wrong, which is impossible in these circumstances. The linking book would then likely 'know'* of the descriptive book through the Age, so if the descriptive book is changed, the linking book 'knows'*, and changes accordingly. Or maybe not. But again, Rawa won't tell us the actual answer.

*That is, 'know' in the same way that your auto-correct 'knows' what you 'meant' to type.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:42 am 
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DLordofTime wrote:
Rawa wrote:
A Linking Book to Myst only requires having been on Myst to write it. He needs no knowledge of the Book of D’ni. (And despite David Wingrove’s* statements to the contrary, he doesn’t even need knowledge of the Myst Book for that matter.)
The comment about Wingrove implies that no, the linking book does not contain a specific reference to the descriptive book, else Rawa would be wrong, which is impossible in these circumstances.


That quote only indicates that you don't have to have 'knowledge' of the descriptive book, in order to write a linking book... It doesn't preclude the notion that a descriptive book has to EXIST, in order for linking books to work.


These two facts convince me that a linking book does not function 'on its own'- it is an extension of the descriptive book:

1. When a descriptive book is changed so much that it links to a similar-but-different Age.. all the linking books will start linking you to the new Age, rather than to the previous one.

2. When you destroy a descriptive book, the linking books to that Age all stop working.

Even your comment:

Quote:
The linking book would then likely 'know'* of the descriptive book through the Age, so if the descriptive book is changed, the linking book 'knows'*, and changes accordingly. Or maybe not.


..suggests a connection between the descriptive book and the linking books.


Quote:
Then what about the logical 'first Age'? How does one get there?


Well, that would depend on how you define the 'first Age'... Presumably, the first man who discovered the Art linked away from his home, and could never go back. Eventually, he wrote an inhabited Age and settled there, teaching its inhabitants how to use the Art. You might consider THAT Age he settled in, to be the first Age.. in that it's the first Age to successfully build a culture around the Art.

That may indeed be what happened in Garternay., all those eons ago.. when the legends say that Yahvo came there, and taught the Art to the Ronay.

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Why should there be a first?


This was my point.. perhaps there NEVER was a 'first Age' because the Art was never discovered by Man-- it was a divine gift.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:23 am 
Actually, this hypothetical 'first Age' is wherever the Art was first used, whether invented by man or given by Yahvo. There will always be a first Age under your hypothesis. Now tell me, why should there be a first Age? Legends tell that the Art was first given to the Ronay on Garternay. Is this our first Age? It's name is very suggestive. 'Root of the Great Tree'. Why call it the 'Root', if there was one before?


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 Post subject: Ronay legends
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Shorah HarveyMidnight,

HarveyMidnight wrote:
... There are Ronay legends, tho, that claim the Art was brought to Garternay by an outside 'writer'-- and legends are OFTEN founded on genuine historical events... ...I think its far more likely the legends have a kernel of truth--- the idea of a historical 'Yahvo' who was an author with access to a Garternay book, and who tutored the Ronay on this ability, seems more consistent with the facts we know about the Art.

Could you point me to these legends? I'd be very interested in reading them.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:27 am 
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DLordofTime wrote:
Actually, this hypothetical 'first Age' is wherever the Art was first used, whether invented by man or given by Yahvo. There will always be a first Age under your hypothesis. Now tell me, why should there be a first Age?


What's the point of even asking this, tho?

We know a lot of ancient North American cultures passed the skills of agriculture & animal domestication between each other... this is why so many of them have very similar legends surrounding the farm, the home, the hearth, etc.. the legends 'tagged along' with the knowledge of how to farm, when one tribe or group taught it to another.... That suggests there might have been a 'First Farm' somewhere in North America, which was the first place crops were grown and animals were penned. Seriously, tho... ... what are the odds we could ever determine its true location with any certainty?


With the Art, we're talking eons upon eons of time-- knowledge & legends crossing alternate universes, many of which are no longer even accessible, nor even still exist. Even the Ronay in Garternay, centuries before D'ni existed, had already forgotten the 'real' history of the Art, and only had legends of where it came from. How is there any way to determine what, where or when was the "First Age"?

I just think it makes sense, and the legends seem consistent with a theory that an outside author could have written the Age of Garternay, linked there and met the Ronay, and taught them the Art.

Yes, this does suggest there's a whole other history of the Art that we know nothing about.. But, sorry, I don't have any other theories about where that theoretical author came from, BEFORE he linked to Garternay.

Quote:
Legends tell that the Art was first given to the Ronay on Garternay. Is this our first Age? It's name is very suggestive. 'Root of the Great Tree'. Why call it the 'Root', if there was one before?


The ancestors of the Japanese surely thought that human life originated in Japan.. Just as ancient Europeans believed it originated in Europe... EVERY ancient culture thought it was the first & only source of human life. Legends are funny like that...

But, still..

I think there's plenty of room to suppose some theoretical "First Writer" was a person who-- by sheer coincidence-- used the right paper and ink, managed to write a stable Age..maybe he was just intending to write a story, with no expectation of creating a link to another world... but when he went thru the link, he could never go back home. So he settled in the Age he wrote.

Perhaps that first writer was Yahvo, and perhaps the Age he wrote was Gartnernay.. maybe not... still, it seems perfectly fair to me, to consider Garternay the "Root" because it could be the first Age that was ever written --and all the other KNOWN Ages, historically, have sprung from it.

And even if Garternay isn't 'really' the First Age... the Ronay, the ones who NAMED it the "Root", probably believed it was-- so it's perfectly sensible that they'd name it thusly.

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 Post subject: Re: Ronay legends
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:38 am 
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Ainia wrote:
Shorah HarveyMidnight,

HarveyMidnight wrote:
... There are Ronay legends, tho, that claim the Art was brought to Garternay by an outside 'writer'-- and legends are OFTEN founded on genuine historical events... ...I think its far more likely the legends have a kernel of truth--- the idea of a historical 'Yahvo' who was an author with access to a Garternay book, and who tutored the Ronay on this ability, seems more consistent with the facts we know about the Art.

Could you point me to these legends? I'd be very interested in reading them.


Not sure.. I know they are mentioned in a lot of places... in the Myst books; Yeesha talks a bit about them in Uru and Myst 5; there's also a D'ni Wikia:

http://dni.wikia.com/wiki/The_Art

Quote:
The origins of "the Art", as it is often called, are lost in the times of Garternay, and it was believed by the D'ni to have been delivered to the Ronay (the ancestors of the D'ni) by Yahvo the Creator.


http://dni.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Age

http://dni.wikia.com/wiki/Judgement_Age

http://dni.wikia.com/wiki/Jakooth%27s_Age

http://dni.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline


But I don't know of any comprehensive article, detailing them all...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:12 pm 
What's the point of an Age you can't get to? After all, if they all pre-exist, then before the links are written, they are indistinguishable. There is therefore no reason that any of them should be singled out as special. Therefore, in the 'first Age' linking books must function. It's ok if First-Writer didn't know of them, and got stuck, but not that he couldn't write one in the first place, because it's not possible in that Age.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:43 pm 
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DLordofTime wrote:
What's the point of an Age you can't get to? After all, if they all pre-exist, then before the links are written, they are indistinguishable. There is therefore no reason that any of them should be singled out as special. Therefore, in the 'first Age' linking books must function. It's ok if First-Writer didn't know of them, and got stuck, but not that he couldn't write one in the first place, because it's not possible in that Age.


Yes... before the links are written, the Ages are indistinguishable.. and you can't link to any of them, until a descriptive book is written. It is the descriptive book that creates the link to that Age, and it is THAT which makes the Age 'special'-- an existing link, an existing description.

Of course, you can write a descriptive book ANYPLACE.. you can link out of any Age...

I just don't believe you can link INTO an Age that has never been written into a descriptive book. Yes, of course that changes once a descriptive book is written, and a link TO that Age is established... You don't seem to grasp the fact that I'm referring to BEFORE such a descriptive book is written for the Age-- I don't think a linking book for that Age will work, if it was NEVER written into a description.



Isn't it true, that once you burn a descriptive book, ALL the linking books stop functioning? Isn't that established canon? Tell me, if otherwise... Just seems to me, if there never WAS a descriptive book written for that Age to begin with, it's an identical situation to the description having been burned... if there's no existing, established description, then linking books for that Age will NOT function.

Either the linking books are independent of any existing descriptive book... or they aren't. And the canon seems to suggest they aren't.

If A equals B, and B equals C, then A equals C. If (A) you can't write a descriptive book for the Age you are IN, and there's not already one.. and (B) you can't write a linking book for an Age that HAS no description. .then it's simple deduction that (C) if nobody 'on the outside' ever writes a description of your home Age, then you, yourself, cannot write a linking book that will take you home.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:17 pm 
Breaking a link is very different to there never having been one. Rawa provides a good thinking for why the brothers are still fine after the books are burned: burning a book is just like taking out a page: you're breaking it into many pieces, but it's insanely difficult to put it back together. Maybe that's why the books cease to work: the link has been disabled, not destroyed. This breaks your logical chain, as the link exists, but it's just unusable. We don't actually know anything about the status of the link before the book is written, so who's to say that it's created by the book? Perhaps the link is also pre-existing, and the book merely taps into it? After all, there really is no reason as to why any Age should be uniquely special over all other Ages.


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