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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Hi everyone,

Yesterday we nearly did an update, which would have been the first fan content update, which was very exciting. However, because of copyright infringements (not Cyan’s copyrights but other companies) we had to back out the changes.

This is not the fault of ChloeRhodes, who put together a great package of new clothing options. And I suspect that the person who gave her the copyrighted clothing designs may not have fully realized the issue. Fan content presents new challenges that coding updates has not. Not only does the diligence for a content update need to make sure that it works, but copyright searches need to be done.

So, moving forward, all fan content providers need to make sure that they are not re-creating copyrighted designs for submission to MOULa ( and well, it is best not to do it anywhere). If you can buy an item or view it in a movie theatre or see it online, the design is probably copyrighted. You guys are very talented - please create your own original designs.

We will make another run at getting ChloeRhodes clothing update into MOULa after the Thanksgiving break. This is very exciting to get fan content into MOULa! and I hope this is a start of bigger updates to come.


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Chogon


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:28 pm 
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Wait, you had a content update planned? :shock: That is awesome! Good luck with those copyright issues then, can't wait to see something new in MOULa, even if it's just some clothing. That might actually get me into playing the game again :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:14 pm 
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This is, indeed, very exciting. I saw the package of Chloe's shirt designs and they're all very nice. I'm sure explorers will appreciate having new clothing options. However, this brings up a lot of questions for me.

Should content creators start sending their files directly to Cyan, now? Will Cyan alone be deciding what content gets added to MOUL? Sure, it's their prerogative to do so, but I had always assumed it would be up to the community to discover good content and request it be added. Like the way it happened with the Obduction shirt. Chloe posted a picture of her Obduction t-shirt design so everyone could see it; people liked it and began asking Cyan if it could be added. That's how it should be, IMO.

But, to my knowledge, only a handful of people have seen the other shirts in the file. Perhaps, like me, they liked them and would agree they should be included along with the Obduction shirt. (Or, maybe someone noticed the copyrighted material.) But, no one asked us. If the shirts aren't there by popular demand, then aren't they just clutter in the closet?

This may appear to be ungrateful or "raining on the parade," but my concern stems from the optimistic idea that we'll have so much fan-created content that Cyan won't have the time to review it all (or, worse, make an update that then has to be backed out, again). It seems like it would be in everyone's best interest to let fan content be vetted by the community and brought to Cyan's attention because it's popular and desired by many.

I just think that there should be a process in place before any fan content is added to MOULa.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:05 pm 
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Can someone explain the copyright problem? You're saying it affected some other clothing items, not the Obduction t-shirts, Tai' ?

I'd like to have seen what else was coming, but it's also nice to get a pleasant surprise :D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:39 am 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
This is, indeed, very exciting. I saw the package of Chloe's shirt designs and they're all very nice. I'm sure explorers will appreciate having new clothing options. However, this brings up a lot of questions for me.

Ah, yes... ok. Admittedly, I got too excited when Chloe contacted me about what she had... OBDUCTION T-SHIRTS <said with much reverb>
But my thought also was that with an update like this it would get people interested in getting a process going to get content submissions rolling (as Tai' pointed out). Sometimes you have to jump the gun to get things rolling (that's my excuse and I sticking to it ;-) )
But yes, there needs to be a bigger discussion.

Acorn1 wrote:
Can someone explain the copyright problem? You're saying it affected some other clothing items, not the Obduction t-shirts, Tai' ?

Right there were additional t-shirts besides the Obduction t-shirt. As always happens when you try to inject more than what is needed, you get burned.


Thanks,
Chogon


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:00 am 
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I wanted to reply to this earlier today, but I didn't get any free time to do so till now. I feel responsible for yesterdays downtime with the server as I put the package together that was sent to Cyan for inclusion. That package included the Obduction T-Shirts as well as other additional clothing items from that several members of the community had made, as well as stuff besides the Obduction Shirt I had made. Along with sending the max files to Cyan, Open-Uru was sent the exported PRPs for testing with their last update. Publicly again, all that was talked about was the Obduction Shirt's, but I made the decision to pull in as much as I could that the fans had done with clothing since Open Source started. I contacted other shard owners that had Fan created clothing on their shards to get permission etc etc. Since one max file had to be made to be sent to Cyan, I pulled together all the resources from the other shard owners prps and remade the clothing in Max to send to Cyan.

Unfortunately, no one realized till after the update had started that at least one of the T-Shirt's had a copyrighted image. I hadn't realized as it wasn't one of my shirts, and I suspect the creator of the texture also didn't realize the image source they used was copyrighted as well. As Chogon mentioned, we, as content creators need to be extra careful where we pull our textures and images from to ensure that they're not trademarked or copyrighted. The upside is that Cyan's still willing to press on and try again which will give me the time to go in, remove the offending shirts, ensure that there's nothing else that may cause issues, and hopefully the next try at a rollout will be much easier with no hiccups.

Tai'lahr wrote:
Should content creators start sending their files directly to Cyan, now? Will Cyan alone be deciding what content gets added to MOUL? Sure, it's their prerogative to do so, but I had always assumed it would be up to the community to discover good content and request it be added. Like the way it happened with the Obduction shirt. Chloe posted a picture of her Obduction t-shirt design so everyone could see it; people liked it and began asking Cyan if it could be added. That's how it should be, IMO.


The only reason I was able to be able to send Cyan the content was because I and a few others in the community use 3dsMax 7 and the original released MaxPlugin. So my Max files are compatible with Cyan's content pipeline system. Unfortunately anything built with a new version of Max won't be compatible with Cyan's system, and Chogon hasn't implemented the changes yet to accept actual PRPs for fan stuff.

Tai'lahr wrote:
But, to my knowledge, only a handful of people have seen the other shirts in the file. Perhaps, like me, they liked them and would agree they should be included along with the Obduction shirt. (Or, maybe someone noticed the copyrighted material.) But, no one asked us. If the shirts aren't there by popular demand, then aren't they just clutter in the closet?This may appear to be ungrateful or "raining on the parade," but my concern stems from the optimistic idea that we'll have so much fan-created content that Cyan won't have the time to review it all (or, worse, make an update that then has to be backed out, again). It seems like it would be in everyone's best interest to let fan content be vetted by the community and brought to Cyan's attention because it's popular and desired by many.I just think that there should be a process in place before any fan content is added to MOULa.



I agree on a few fronts Tai'. I disagree on the idea that content should be vetted on a system of do the majority want this. Especially when it comes to something as small as a few extra t-shirts in your closet. I like to think this is all going to work out like our own personal Shards do. Cyan will include what they want, from whom they want, just like we all do. What we need to make sure is that our stuff is actually owned by us if we want it on Cyan's shard, and thats all. Meaning we didn't use trademarked and copyrighted stuff. What I do believe we need is a place where this stuff can be checked and vetted before it ever gets to Cyan. Cyan's system works like a production pipeline. Once the pipeline's started, if something goes wrong on just one item, it can throw the whole pipeline out of whack. Which is what happened yesterday. Just that one thing had a bit of a chain reaction.

I think, we need to start using one of the fan shards as a test bed. Just like Minkata is the last stop for changes to the engine to make it to Cyan, we need a shard thats the last stop before content like ages and clothing make it to Cyan. So that they can be tested. Tried out. Mistakes fixed etc, so that when its ready to go we can send it to Cyan the QA on their part will get done much quicker.

We don't have that right now unfortunately. But we're going to need it soon.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:17 am 
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A rights violation on MOULa is just as much a rights violation on another shard. The content needs private review first, before public release for testing. For the Avatar Asset release, a number of textures from Turner, MQO, Mars Colony and some miscellaneous sources were culled from the complete library before public release, specifically in order to prevent this circumstance. A problem here is reviewing 3ds max files if the reviewers don't have the tools necessary, but for the Avatar Asset release, only the textures needed review. A private texture review implies trust that they perfectly represent the entire submission which includes the 3ds files, but that seems sufficient and okay to me. The final product will still get a verification on MOULa, and I hope testing on shards prior to that, before going live.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:00 am 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:

The upside is that Cyan's still willing to press on and try again which will give me the time to go in, remove the offending shirts, ensure that there's nothing else that may cause issues, and hopefully the next try at a rollout will be much easier with no hiccups.




Thanks, Chloe, Chogon and everyone - this is great news. Thanks for all you're doing!

We've had a small setback but I agree with Chogon, it will be an exciting development and may stimulate the development of further fan content.

Ainia - might the pink robe and bunny slippers have a chance of joining the package? :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:25 pm 
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Quote:
my concern stems from the optimistic idea that we'll have so much fan-created content that Cyan won't have the time to review it all


We should install process when that happens, not before.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Look forward too seeing the T-shirt in-game.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Acorn1 wrote:
ChloeRhodes wrote:

The upside is that Cyan's still willing to press on and try again which will give me the time to go in, remove the offending shirts, ensure that there's nothing else that may cause issues, and hopefully the next try at a rollout will be much easier with no hiccups.




Thanks, Chloe, Chogon and everyone - this is great news. Thanks for all you're doing!

We've had a small setback but I agree with Chogon, it will be an exciting development and may stimulate the development of further fan content.

Ainia - might the pink robe and bunny slippers have a chance of joining the package? :wink:

Shorah Acorn1,

Wish I knew! I'm afraid that one is in Chloe's hands too... :?

[[Although I am active here in many ways, Age/content development is not on the list... :(]]

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:58 pm 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
I think, we need to start using one of the fan shards as a test bed. Just like Minkata is the last stop for changes to the engine to make it to Cyan, we need a shard thats the last stop before content like ages and clothing make it to Cyan. So that they can be tested.

I was under the impression that Minkata was intended to provide that as well, that it just hasn’t been used yet (and no process developed for it) because nobody had any fan content for MOULa. But of course that is up to the shard owner.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Christian Walther wrote:
I was under the impression that Minkata was intended to provide that as well, that it just hasn’t been used yet (and no process developed for it) because nobody had any fan content for MOULa. But of course that is up to the shard owner.

And that is still my intention with Minkata. Chloe did in fact make her content available to us, but we decided to hold deployment of the shirt until we had an indication that Cyan was happy with the use of the Obduction design.

Which we seem to have observed. So maybe the hold has been lifted. 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:00 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Chogon wrote:
Ah, yes... ok. Admittedly, I got too excited when Chloe contacted me about what she had... OBDUCTION T-SHIRTS <said with much reverb>
But my thought also was that with an update like this it would get people interested in getting a process going to get content submissions rolling (as Tai' pointed out). Sometimes you have to jump the gun to get things rolling (that's my excuse and I sticking to it ;-) )
But yes, there needs to be a bigger discussion.
Okay, lesson learned, so let's begin the discussion. But, first, let's try to imagine how the OpenUru team might be feeling right now:
[Reveal] Spoiler: small rant
What appeared to be a simple update turned into a costly mistake. We can only imagine what kind of a hit the CAVCON took for this and the frustrating thing is that it could have been avoided.

The OpenUru Team has spent years developing a trusted relationship with Cyan - all for the end goal of getting fan contributions (fixes & content) to MOULa with the least amount of work possible on Cyan's end. You might even say that getting the most out of the CAVCON is their goal as well.

JWPlatt has been the guardian at the gate, making sure everyone strictly adheres to the rules so that there could be no doubt Cyan could trust the team to be the final checkpoint for everything destined for MOULa. Mac_Fife continues to maintain regular contact with Cyan and Rarified maintains a shard specifically for testing. That's just the core of the team; there are also many contributors and testers giving their time - for free.

Now, the first real fan content destined for MOULa comes along - the thing they've been working towards - and they're completely bypassed.

Now, can we use this content to begin developing a process with OpenUru? I know everyone is excited about getting the Obduction t-shirt, but the game's release isn't for over a year, so there's plenty of time to get this right (and save money).

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