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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:02 am 
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Talashar wrote:
Is the word garkal or garKal? It looks like Rawa's using OTS consonants, but you have garkal in the dictionary picture.


It's garKal. I copied it directly and forgot to change the case on the k. I've fixed it, and used the chance to change the illustration to one I like a little better.

Talashar wrote:
The way -et and -ets are defined makes me think that there might not actually be a robust semantic difference between the two. It seems that for some words, the English definitions actually work better reversed: tromets is more like "wingful" than "wingy".


The idea that the -ets in tromets makes it literally translate as "wingy" is something that will pop up again. It points to a way of formulating words that I don't think has been floated around the fandom before. Or at least I've never seen any mention of it when going through the language lessons.

I have two more words to introduce. After they go up, I'll post another snippet of the conversation which revolves around those words. It has another example of the concept that D'ni may describe certain things as "____-y" when making adjectives of them. The snippet contains a very nice explanation of how something was named, so you can look forward to that.

After those two words are up, I'll be out of new material. Whether there will be more is still up in the air. RAWA promised that he'd give me five new words to illustrate. However, I don't know if åtinor counts toward that total yet. If it does, then I may be getting one more word after he goes back to work this week. If it doesn't, I may be getting two more words. Or he may end up too busy and we'll have to settle for the four words I got. Only time will tell.

In any case, I'll be posting the first of the two words tomorrow, and the second on Monday along with the snippet.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:03 am 
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Talashar wrote:
If -et is applied to nouns, this suggests that at some point there was a noun teeg 'work' which may have been replaced by teegtahv or still be used alongside it.

This is interesting, and points to an older system of derivation still visible in sey "design; to design" where the same word can function as both a verb and a noun (note that English is currently developing this system)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:18 am 
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Perhaps -et has a quantitative connotation (“full of ...”), while -ets has a qualitative one (“characterized by ...”).

For example, tromets would be a flying creature, while tromet would be a creature with a dozen wings.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:57 pm 
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Now that elemar is in the lexicon, time to share what RAWA had to say about it and how he used -ets. Note that in his explanation, he does indeed use -y to modify mushroom into an adjective.

Quote:
That said, my main interest right now is in figuring out what Teledahn means.


A breakdown of Teledahn:
Derived from To - elemartee - nadahnets (lit. -> "Place (of) spores mushroomy")
to - t(o) - n. place (note: the "o" drops off)
el-e-mahr - elemar - n. spore
na-dahn - naDan - n. mushroom
Then it gets mashed down, taking part of each of the source words.
To-ELEmahrtee-naDANets --> TELEDAHN --> Teledahn

Similar to the meaning of Gahreesen is a mash up of a three word description of their fortress.
Gah-ree-sen - garEsen - der -> gahro - ahreeuh - senaren (great/protection/structure)
gahro - garo - adj. great (mighty) [everyone probably knows from the Book of Atrus,]
ahreeuh - arEu - n. protection [as in Atrus' "places of protection"]
senaren - senaren - n. structure (building)

(Rabbit trail: It never helps when the artists start calling a place an English name, and then ask me for a D'ni name later. Once they've named it, they're not going to change, so I try to make it something close. Fortunately for Gahreesen, I already had words I could work with to make something "close enough."
However, even when I get to name it first, they still Anglicize it if there is something close that they can remember easier. Ex. I named Tokotah first. The artists started calling it "the Dakota," which stuck with them. C'est la vie.
It can be justified that the DRC and the Explorers would be likely to Anglicize things, too, to make them easier to remember - at least that's what I tell myself.
"Jalak" was the name of the pillars in the Age. Ryan Miller thought is sounded like "Did you lock" all run together. So he started calling it "Jalak Dador" as in "Did you lock the door?" Apparently that stuck, even though it was meant as a joke.
I still call them by their "real" names: "Tokotah" and "Jalak". :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:05 pm 
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With the definition of veren confirmed, this sentence from Kenen Gor is now clear:

Rilbokenet verenij : We will not be pacified.

Veren can also mean "mollify", so the full definition is:

B'veren (v.): To pacify, to mollify.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:44 pm 
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It might be useful, at this point, to have a list of unknown or unclear words at hand:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Translations, when given, are of course guesses. Words with an asterisk are from the Atrus Prayer and written differently.

ahchah (aca) ... climate
ahl (al) ... seed
ahlgah (alga) ... ???
ahn (an) ... ???
ahr (ar) ... go
ahroy (arO) ... attend
ahrtah (arta) ... cause
ahtmai (atmA) ... stop, remove

ailah (Ala) ... ???

bahr (bar) ... ???
bahrtah* (birci) ... accomplish
bahsh/bash* (biS) ... sense
bahvahnin (bavanin) ... hidden
birahn (biran) ... sea
bortah* (borci) ... purpose
bot (bot) ... ???
bugsho (bugSo) ... ???

chahn (can) ... be able
chehto (ceto) ... ensuing

daban (Daban) ... alembic
dahg (Dag) ... ???
doren (Doren) ... ???
drahtol (Dratol) ... ???

dhainoy (dAnO) ... obstacle
dhehlim (delim) ... right
dho (do) ... how
dhozonehsh* (dozokeS) ... however

eg (eg) ... ???
(e)lahth (elaT) ... elite
elon (elon) ... elevate
elonet (elonet) ... elevated
emee (emE) ... decide
ehmehlahn (emelan) ... ???
entahn (entan) ... honesty
ehtahf (etaf) ... ???

fitai (fitA) ... marvel
folehs (foles) ... wait
forshu (forSu) ... ???

gerah (gera) ... center, middle
gerahn (geran) ... foundation
girah (gira) ... steam
go (go) ... ???
golah (gola) ... justice
gonahth (gonaT) ... silent one, slave
grahner (graner) ... circle
gulem (gulem) ... strait, channel

hahrten (harten) ... wait
hoosahtai (hUsatA) ... satisfied, satisfactory, successful
hootsaith* (hUyAT) ... benevolence
h’rot (h’rot) ... ???

inaltahv (inåltav) ... opportunity, privilege

jahgah (jaga) ... warrant, provide
jikhah (jika) ... remain

kahnhahg (Kanhag) ... ???
kahntin (Kantin) ... oppress, enslave, imprison
kahntinahloth (KantinaloT) ... oppressed one, slave, captive, prisoner
kahntintahn (Kantintan) ... oppressor, slave-owner, captor
keelah (KEla) ... endure, spend
keso (Keso) ... restore, save
kesotahv (Kesotav) ... restoration, salvation
kino (Kino) ... surrender, give up
kiri (Kiri) ... krill fly
[k]ort[e]s (Kortes) ... book group
koozah (KUza) ... depart, leave

khahg/khag* (xig) ... act, exist
khahntor/khantor* (xikcor) ... reflect, contemplate, concentrate
khaht (kat) ... ???
khoy (kO) ... if
khoytahg/khoytag* (xOcig) ... result, question

lan (lån) ... wear, gain
leeahm (lEam) ... part, component, detail
leeahnith (lEaniT) ... division, partition
lonep (lonep) ... discovery
lorahg/lorag* (lorig) ... grace, joy
loopah (lUpa) ... risk, venture, trip

mahdo/mado* (nido) ... succeed, join
mahgen/magen* (nigek) ... powers, wonders
mahnshootahvting (manSUtavting) ... mortality
mahtahn (matan) ... leave, put aside
mepord (mepord) ... ???
mesfet* (nesfec) ... inspiration, urge
milesh (mileS) ... overwhelm
miood (mIUD) ... means, tool
miru (mIru) ... desire, want
mo (mo) ... ???
mooshee (mUSE) ... invention, inspiration

nahgah (naga) ... learn
nahr... (nar...) ... ???
nefekh (nefek) ... ???
nem (nem) ... gather
neseet (nesEt) ... ???
nogin (nogin) ... ignore, neglect, abandon
nudahtahv (nuDatav) ... disaster

ogel (ogel) ... age, get old
oleekh (olEk) ... ???
omd (omD) ... ???
omsheeno (omSEno) ... ???

oolin (Ulin) ... control, govern, master
oolintahv (Ulintav) ... control, mastery
oonahn (Unan) ... leadership

oyn (On) ... because

pahl (pal) ... anyway
pahrkh* (pirx) ... pray
paipeel (pApEl) ... be upset, be distracted
pazgo (påzgo) ... ???
pekai (peKA) ... similar, useful
pelool (pelUl) ... ???
pirin fush (pirin fuS) ... ???
po (po) ... mouth
po’aht (po’at) ... mouthful
poru (poru) ... ???
poog (pUg) ... prove
prahchiz/prachiz* (priåaz) ... amaze, astound

rahshahth (raSaT) ... shadow
reemi (rEmI) ... during
reetahn (rEtan) ... ???
rek/rahk (reK) ... class
rifeen (rifEn) ... surpass, outnumber
rilnahr* (ralkir) ... do not establish
rinaltahv (rinåltav) ... privilege, opportunity
rinto (rinto) ... coast
rochay (rocA) ... meet, reach, arrive at
ron (ron) ... ???
roomai (rUmA) ... circumvent, get around, alter
rotee (rotE) ... ???

sovah (sova) ... ???

shahveroo (SaverU) ... narrow, long
shaml... (Såml...) ... ???
sheegah (SEga) ... way, path, passage
shebah (Seba) ... ???
shelah (Sela) ... ???
shoogah (SUga) ... ???
shulen (Sulen) ... drawn

tah (ta) ... it
tahru (taru) ... perish
taibun (tAbun) ... ???
tairoo* (cArU) ... apparent, thorough
tairoosh* (cArUS) ... sensibly, thoroughly
tanu (tånu) ... be blind
tanuth (tånuT) ... blindness
teeju (tEju) ... team, crew
teeko (tEko) ... ???
temah (tema) ... hear, heed
temo (temo) ... since, after
tetemo (tetemo) ... meanwhile, during which
togahsh (togaS) ... ???
tome (tome) ... away, from the place
tookhoot (tUkUt) ... ???
toomin (tUmin) ... touched, handled
too[n]ee (tUnE) ... ???

tsahroo (xarU) ... full, eye
tsaidor (xAdor) ... ???
tsosahtahv (xosatav) ... possession, treasure

umt (umt) ... ???

vahtee (vatE) ... ???
vainu* (vAku) ... explore
veechtahv (vEctav) ... acquisition
vidu (vIDu) ... tide, season
viu (vIu) ... event, term

winis (winis) ... together, forward

yeepai (yEpA) ... goggles
yootai (yUtA) ... dedicate, owe

zeewai (zEwA) ... mission, expedition, project

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:43 pm 
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I've given him a list of words similar to that, so he can pick and choose what he wants to share. I doubt I can wheedle new words out of him indefinitely, though... with his job, health, and life to mind to, it's not likely he'll keep this up for much longer.

He gave me two more words to work with, and I was able to extract two root words out of those (dirt is one of the extracted root words), so I have three more illustrations to post. After that, who knows? He's been very generous up to this point, so I can't realistically believe I'll get much -- if any -- more. The only thing I have going for me is that his mother is on my side -- she's a fan of my work. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:59 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Perhaps -et has a quantitative connotation (“full of ...”), while -ets has a qualitative one (“characterized by ...”).

For example, tromets would be a flying creature, while tromet would be a creature with a dozen wings.


It is good to have a clear corroboration of the idea (long theorized but sometimes questioned) that the -t in shoraht, etc. is essentially the same as the -et in chevet, etc.

A key to understanding the meaning of this suffix -(e)t may lie in such compound words as bahntahno ‘island’ which appears to contain the word ahno ‘water’ so that the construction is probably *bahn ‘land’ + t(e) ‘in’ + ahno (as suggested by Tai'lahr). Etymologically this was most likely understood as a particular kind of *bahn, namely one that is te ahno ‘in water’ and we have many examples of comparable modifying phrases, such as t’biv ‘in all’, t’nayon ‘in its root’, etc. But if this is correct then in a D’ni compound like this the components would remain recognizable, and so understood as ‘land-in-water’ where both nouns are characterized by their association with each other: the land is “contained” by the water and (symmetrically) the water “contains” the land.

Another example may help to show the pattern. A phrase such as the Engish “peace in the new year” would be shorah trehahr neeah, which grammatically is a kind of peace, but semantically can also be understood as implying a kind of new year, namely one that “contains” peace, i.e one that is peaceful. So there is an inherent logical connection between that phrase and rehahr neeah shoraht ‘the peaceful new year’. Similarly, although we do not know exactly what ahl means, the phrase reatinorokh reter kenen t’ahlon can be connected logically with reahlokh reter kenen atinoret.

This symmetry between a prefix t(e)- that can mean ‘in’ and a suffix -(e)t that can mean ‘containing’ or ‘full of’ could be accidental, but an etymological connection would help to explain the notional difference between the suffixes -et ‘-ful’ and -ets ‘-y’. While these may overlap to some extent, the latter seems to have a more general meaning, so that in an example like pradets ‘rocky’ the English translation might sometimes mean ‘full of rocks’ but could also just mean ‘having some rocks’ or ‘consisting partially of rock’, and it may be that these are closer to the sense of the D’ni word.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:06 pm 
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My impression is that korovev is essentially right about -ets; the example RAWA gave for Teledahn points toward -ets using -y as a qualitative modifier that reminds me of Ork speech in the Warhammer games. Tromets would be something that has the characteristics of wings.

-et, on the other hand, uses -ful to describe a tendency, so åtinoret is something that has beauty, baronet is something that has the properties of a phospor, chevet is something that has gratitude, etcetera. I doubt it has much to do with quantity.

In your example, prådets would be something that has rock; the number of rocks involved wouldn't matter.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:07 am 
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I was agreeing with what Korovev said and elaborating on it :lol:

His saying that -ets means "characterized by ..." is true as far as it goes, but not very explanatory -- at least not to me. But in my view his idea that -et means "full of ..." is exactly right.

Larry's idea that this refers mainly to "a tendency" does not seem right to me. Beauty is a quality and being beautiful is having that quality. We all recognize that this is subjective (so that you and I may disagree about which things have the quality of beauty), but it has nothing whatsoever to do with tendencies.

Of course with some concepts like "thanks" being full of that ('thankful') is used metaphorically to imply the tendency to "give" those thanks to others. But this is secondary, the basic sense of chevet is "full of thanks" -- just as Korovev suggested.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:48 pm 
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The last gloss, me "out", makes the word megoyrey "straight out" that much more transparent. It also confirms for D'ni the widespread tendency for there to be adverbs that are either identical to, or stand in a derivational relationship with, the corresponding adpositions.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:35 am 
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If we are right to see a symmetrical relation between the adjective-forming suffix -(e)t and the preposition t(e), then we might expect a comparable relation between adjectives ending in -(e)m and the preposition m(e) ‘from, out of’. Where -(e)t defines an attribute that is “full of” something, the comparable use of -(e)m would define an attribute as “empty of” something.

Naturally it is more common to describe a quality in positive terms of what is present rather than negatively in terms of what is lacking, but there are some exceptions. So it is quite interesting that the only D’ni adjective we have that ends in -(e)m does name a quality that is commonly thought of in this way, namely ferem ‘dry’, a concept that is perhaps most easily explained as ‘lacking in moisture’.

Of course we have no corroboration that fer means 'moisture' or 'liquid' or anything related -- but it is still interesting :)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:29 pm 
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Now that I've got "homesick" posted, let's toss this one into the ring.

Up until now, it seems to have been assumed that "me" was a word with variable meanings according to the context of the sentence. But what if it really just means “out”, and "te" just means “in”?

Let's work with the idea that "me" means out, but can also imply "out of".

Kh'reestrefah has this written for "me":

Quote:
From, of, made from. (See mre-.) Me can be used to indicate the starting point of a physical movement or action. It can also be used to indicate composition.


Some of the examples for it are:

Quote:
MeD'nē bretalēo : From D'ni to the surface. Map.
Metidhsāchā mepråd anotam abtsēets : This fault line of magma basaltic rock. FL.
Retoman me pråd : The house of rock. The D'ni Language Guide..
Rilrovchanshentoen ta me zū : No-one can take it from me. Kadish.
Reyēpā kolanēt me gormot tetemo : The (???) they gained(?) from during(?) that time. GJ.


But if we translate more literally, using "out", we get:

MeD'nē bretalēo : Out-(of)-D'ni to-the-surface. Map.
Metidhsāchā mepråd anotam abtsēets : This-line-fault out-(of)-rock water-fire basalt-y. FL.
Retoman me pråd : The-house out (of) rock. The D'ni Language Guide.
Rilrov chanshentoen ta me zū : No-person can(?)-take-it (???) out (of) me. Kadish. [ta = away(?)]
Reyēpā kolanēt me gormot tetemo : The-(???) gained(?)-they out (of) that-time during(?). GJ.

Other words using "me" are:

Megoyrā : straight out (of).
Melin : outer.
Tome : homesick (literally "out (of) place").

For "te", the supposition that it simply means "in" is weaker, but still makes sense in many of the examples. Not necessarily all, though.

lepaboyen set te vātsū’on : has blessed us in his presence.
lepaboyen set te dotagen b’set : has blessed us in giving to us.
[sh]ulen te telūkam Ātrus : drawn in Surveyors Guildsman Aitrus.
lemarnem met misho tsav te : you have created this universe I live in.
sekem shokhūtēom … arema te : you have your instructions … go(?) in!
okh r’acha te a sev mot : of the climate(?) in [???] that age.
te rekoy D’nē kēbaem revat : in my D’ni class(?) you obey the five.
ken tomet te biv rū mīru : I am here in all I desire(?).
kåmrov teshemtē vūhē belen rū tsanril kobolkēbaen ze : who in you can claim that you would never have obeyed her.
bomanshū tomet te ēst : I will die here in them.
ril komanshū te rildil : I did not die in nothing.
komanshū te bivdil : I died in everything.
teflin tēget : in working order.
met yisha kokenen kopazgo tenash mretson azmorelu : this planet was funded in part from the Osmorella foundation.
rilte : not in (without).

Any thoughts?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:51 am 
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This is wholly unnecessary, and reveals an ignorance of how real languages that are not English work. There is absolutely nothing wrong with positing an array of English glosses for prepositions in another language. There is no reason to expect any language, even D'ni, to assign the basic meanings in the same way as English. As an example, let's consider the Ancient Egyptian preposition m. In simple terms, this can be rendered in English as "in", "from", or even "with" (as in, using a tool). Even if we did follow your line of reasoning, "out" is a very forced translation for me, and clearly chosen only for parallelism with te "in", not for any reasons stemming from an analysis of the source material. No, "from" fits all cases better, and a development to "made/consisting of" is more natural for "from" than "out". In any case, as I've said, this analysis isn't useful.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:26 am 
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[Reveal] Spoiler: Let's take these one at a time.

MeD'nē bretalēo : From D'ni to the surface. Map.
Vs
MeD'nē bretalēo : Out-(of)-D'ni to-the-surface. Map.


This is the only one that doesn't seem too far fetched, however, having to put in an implied "of" makes it a bit more complex. From is simpler.


Metidhsāchā mepråd anotam abtsēets : This fault line of magma basaltic rock. FL.
vs
Metidhsāchā mepråd anotam abtsēets : This-line-fault out-(of)-rock water-fire basalt-y. FL.


In order for your usage of "Me = Out" to work, you'd need a "made" put in there somewhere. "This fault line made out of rock" etc. Again, "of" works simpler- it conveys the "Made out of" in less space and as one word.

Retoman me pråd : The house of rock. The D'ni Language Guide.
vs
Retoman me pråd : The-house out (of) rock. The D'ni Language Guide.


This is just forcing the "Out" instance. As with the above, it need a stated or implied "Made" in there. "The house out of rock" does not sound like a properly translated sentence, nor is "Out" likely what the name is meant to convey.

Rilrovchanshentoen ta me zū : No-one can take it from me. Kadish.
vs
Rilrov chanshentoen ta me zū : No-person can(?)-take-it (???) out (of) me. Kadish. [ta = away(?)]


No. Just. No. This doesn't work. The sentence is from the Vault note, is it not? The "It" here is Kadish's treasure, but the treasure is not *inside* Kadish himself, is it? No. "No person can take [my treasure] out (of) me" implies that Kadish has something *in his body* that he won't let people take from him which does not fit with the implications of him being in his vault.

In this case, the original "No-one can take [my treasure] from me" works both as a proper translation, and is almost certainly what Kadish himself intended when he wrote that sentence.


Finally:

Reyēpā kolanēt me gormot tetemo : The (???) they gained(?) from during(?) that time. GJ.
VS
Reyēpā kolanēt me gormot tetemo : The-(???) gained(?)-they out (of) that-time during(?). GJ.


This sentence has so many gaps in it we can't even begin to piece together which instance is actually correct or not. Yours could be right, or the original could be right. However, assuming that the unknown after the "The" is a person or people... then "The [Unknown People], they gained something from (en?)during that time" versus "The [Unknown People] gained they out of that time during" makes it clear that the thoughts are there, but are simply out of order, and sounds to me like From/Out of is an ambiguous case where it can mean both at the same time.

Again, there's just too much missing from the sentence to know what its full context is.

As for "Te" meaning "In"... I don't think it can mean "In" every single time. It's likely the same case as "Me" meaning various things depending on the context of it, as many languages other than English have words like that. (Even English has a few words that change meaning depending on context.)

lepaboyen set te vātsū’on : has blessed us in his presence.
lepaboyen set te dotagen b’set : has blessed us in giving to us.


These work as "In."

[sh]ulen te telūkam Ātrus : drawn in Surveyors Guildsman Aitrus.

"Drawn IN"...? As in it was drawn inside the person? If it was a tattoo, maybe. Otherwise, no. "Drawn By" works better.

lemarnem met misho tsav te : you have created this universe I live in.

This works.

sekem shokhūtēom … arema te : you have your instructions … go(?) in!

What is the context of this original sentence, and where is it from originally? It's impossible to tell what the intended declaration at the end is meant to convey on its own.

okh r’acha te a sev mot : of the climate(?) in [???] that age.


In works, although "of" can work as well.

te rekoy D’nē kēbaem revat : in my D’ni class(?) you obey the five.


In can work, and is likely the intended, but again, what is the context?

ken tomet te biv rū mīru : I am here in all I desire(?).

In or With. Is this sentence from the Kadish Vault Note as well? If so, "With" is likely what's intended.

kåmrov teshemtē vūhē belen rū tsanril kobolkēbaen ze : who in you can claim that you would never have obeyed her.

I'd go with "Among" if it's addressing a group. If it's addressing a person... that would depend on the context before it.

bomanshū tomet te ēst : I will die here in them.


...I can't even begin to describe how wrong that sounds on its own. What is the context of this sentence?

ril komanshū te rildil : I did not die in nothing.
komanshū te bivdil : I died in everything.
teflin tēget : in working order.
met yisha kokenen kopazgo tenash mretson azmorelu : this planet was funded in part from the Osmorella foundation.


These can work.

rilte : not in (without).

What? Is this just a single word? On its own I can't judge whether or not it actually works in your implied context.


Too Long, please read:


Larry, I think you're trying to force the meanings of two D'ni words to be the same English word meaning every single time and it doesn't work.

There isn't an exact 1 to 1 ratio for all words and all concepts across different languages.
Some languages don't even differentiate between some syllables. (Off the top of my head example: Japanese's syllable inter-changability. Some words can be transliterated into English differently- "Right" vs "Light", or "Jyuden" vs "Zyuden"- despite being written in Japanese the exact same way.) Having this kind of nuance to any given language means that any translation is going to have some ambiguity to it. (See: people arguing over whether a characters name is "Raito" or "Laito." The latter works fitting the themes of the series, but were the writers going for something a bit different?) Some languages *don't* have words for items and concepts that that other languages do! (That's how we end up with borrowed words- especially when dealing with technology and other modern inventions/discoveries.)

Sticking with Japanese examples, "Sentai" can mean "Team" or "Squad," but it's a word we don't have an *exact* match for. (Which is why the "Super Sentai" brand is renamed "Power Rangers" internationally.) There's also the honor fic, "-Dan," that means a similar thing. ("SOS-Dan" vs "Rocket-Dan"- both were translated respectively in different shows as "The SOS Brigade" and "Team Rocket" despite using the same honor fic.)

This is what makes translating such a tricky thing. If it were a simple 1 to 1 every time, then we wouldn't have such ambiguity across different translations. (Though I've always wondered why the heek does the English language have so many different words for "Team.")

I'm not a Linguist, but I've picked up many things over the years that are setting off warning signs in my head right now. I say this as a writer, and as someone who has had to wrangle with many bad translations over the years in both writing, and dealing with real live people who speak different languages. And I'm sorry to say it, Larry, but your suggestions here read like you're trying to make everything fit 100% out of denial of the very real possibility that RAWA crafted the D'ni language to have single words that mean different things depending on the context of the sentences preceding and following.

In conclusion, I'm finding that the D'ni "Me" simply cannot be an English "Out" in every single case. Same for "Te" being "In." *Are* they translations for certain cases? Yes! Are they the translation for *every* case? No.

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