Discussion for "Guild Of Writers"

Tiran · **Posted:** Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:53 pm

Everybody deserves credit for work. A designer plays a vital part in age creation which makes the designer an age writer.

Dovahn · **Joined:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:12 pm **Posts:** 107

Quote:

I think you misunderstand me... I'm saying anyone who actually physically creates something for the Age -- code, 3D models, music, etc -- is a Writer. If Artist Aaron comes along and makes a texture for an Age, he's a Writer. If Musician Mark writes a piece of music for an Age, he's a Writer. However, someone who comes along and says "You need a waterfall over there" or "Build a golf course Age" is not a Writer. Planner/designer perhaps, but not a Writer.

In the construction business, you have people who come up with the design for a building: architects (planner/designer). You also have those who actually do the work of building it: construction workers (Writers). The architect/designer is an essential member for making a great building, but he doesn't get the title "construction worker" ("Writer") unless he goes down and physically works on the building as well.

But are you trying to say that the people who are "planner/designers" didn't work as hard as the modelers? (maybe you're not, I'm just asking) Certainly not if they just say things like that randomly, but if they put thought into it, then they should be given the same amount of credit as the programmers.

Another important point is that no matter what, the "Writer" credited in the age will be regarded by the community as the "true" creator of the age, even if the planners put in their hard work. Even if you tell people that the planners worked just as hard, which they probably have, it wouldn't be the same. IMHO, separate but equal doesn't work here.

Dovahn

Ushgarak · **Posted:** Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:29 pm

Herohtar wrote:

Ushgarak wrote:

That's simple to answer- what you are describing there is an IC process, not an OOC one. If a person outside the GoW comes up with an idea for an Age and asks the Guild to make it come a reality, then sure, the process is as you describe above.

But the OOC process of conceptualising Ages as a deliberate part of a programme for the Guild to create Ages or as part of a creative project is absolutely nothing like what you describe above. Those people- who are making vital components of an Age as part of a dedicated Age creation team- are just as much part of the Guild as the programmers and modellers, and so IC they are Writers.

Being an IC Writer does not equate to being the person who literally codes the Age. It equates to being someone OOC who has made this committment, and actively participates in, the process of Age creation, in any form.

I think you misunderstand me... I'm saying anyone who actually physically creates something for the Age -- code, 3D models, music, etc -- is a Writer. If Artist Aaron comes along and makes a texture for an Age, he's a Writer. If Musician Mark writes a piece of music for an Age, he's a Writer. However, someone who comes along and says "You need a waterfall over there" or "Build a golf course Age" is not a Writer. Planner/designer perhaps, but not a Writer.

In the construction business, you have people who come up with the design for a building: architects (planner/designer). You also have those who actually do the work of building it: construction workers (Writers). The architect/designer is an essential member for making a great building, but he doesn't get the title "construction worker" ("Writer") unless he goes down and physically works on the building as well.

No, I didn't misunderstand you, and my thoughts remain exactly the same. As has been mentioned before, coming up with decent Age design is, in any case, actually rather difficult and is as important for an Age as the technical side. As Tiran says, the designer is performing an equally creditable job that forms part of the OOC process which, IC, makes you a Writer.

Incidentally I feel the analogy of a building is not great. An Age is more like a film. So who gets the credit? Writer? Director? Actors? Effects Guys? Set designers? Composer?

Answer is all of them. Team effort. And whilst those roles don't exactly map onto Age design the principle is the same. Where I feel you are out of step with what others is saying is saying that, in the analogy I give above, this is a Guild of Actors OR Effects People OR Directors or whatever. It's not specific like that. It's a Guild of 'Everyone involved in Film Making.'

So to break out the analogy ands return to what we are debating here- really, the term 'Guild of Writers' means 'Guild of everyone involved in Age Production', and not "Guild of people who model Ages'.

It's all vital work that the various people do, snd so it's all part of the Guild. A team of Writers, each with various roles in real life- but each of them still a Writer in-game. A Modeller is a Writer, a puzzle designer is a Writer, the person who conceptualises the age is a Writer... all Writers. OOC, NONE of them are performing the precise process that was D'ni writing. But IC, all of them are.

And so once more, mapping being called a 'Writer' onto the modelling and programming side of things alone is very much not the idea.

Paradox · **Posted:** Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:44 pm

Why don't we get all of the guilds involved?

Yes, that is how complicated Age creation can be.

Artists and designers are just as important to the process as the Python coders or builders. How is anyone to decide who should be a "contributing member" or not? Anyone who wishes to contribute anything to any of the projects is of importance.

Dovahn · **Joined:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:12 pm **Posts:** 107

That might be a bit difficult to coordinate...

But you're right. And I agree with you: Anyone who has a part should get credit. Even if it was a small part, it doesn't discredit the modelers any to have someone else listed as a Writer.

Ian Atrus · **Posted:** Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:14 pm

Herohtar wrote:

you are a D'ni person back in the day and have a great idea for an Age (design), but you're not a Guild member and don't have any skill in writing an Age (creating content). So what do you do? Go to the Guild of Writers and submit your ideas to someone there (a Writer) who does have the ability to make your ideas a reality.

As someone said, this is an IC process, which only tangentially touches the modern GoW. A D'ni Writer of old didn't need to know anything about 3D modelling, and a D'ni Writer of today doesn't need to know a single D'ni word. Let's leave IC at the door for now, unless you can think of a way to resolve the dichotomy.

Quote:

However, if the only thing Rand did for the Cleft was to say "That looks good", then he did not write the Age

So the fact that he made up the place and described it in detail in BoA counts for nothing at all, because he didn't make the 3D model? Wow, that's a real incentive to join the Guild for concept artists and puzzle creators...

Paradox wrote:

Why don't we get all of the guilds involved?

People from those guilds might be involved in Age creation, in fact I think there will be a lot of overlapping - as I said, we're a community of multi-talented people and no one would get in a guild if it prevented him to do everything else that is in the other guilds' area.

A musician can certainly contribute with music for an Age, and a visual artists can make textures or paintings, but they still should be able to make art for art's sake, not 'servants' of the GoW to call in when something is needed.

(Actually, it is my hope that an eventual Guild of fine arts won't be confined to the creation of D'ni related art; my main art venue is photography, and taking screenshots in game is nowhere near to real photography - unless they start giving us a zoom and depth of field selectors)

Herohtar · **Joined:** Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:45 pm **Posts:** 2553

Tiran wrote:

Everybody deserves credit for work. A designer plays a vital part in age creation which makes the designer an age writer.

I agree 100%, everyone should receive credit, but I don't think everyone should have the title Writer.

Dovahn wrote:

But are you trying to say that the people who are "planner/designers" didn't work as hard as the modelers? (maybe you're not, I'm just asking) Certainly not if they just say things like that randomly, but if they put thought into it, then they should be given the same amount of credit as the programmers.

No, that's not what I'm saying. The people who plan and design the Age work just as hard and deserve just as much credit as anyone else.

Dovahn wrote:

Another important point is that no matter what, the "Writer" credited in the age will be regarded by the community as the "true" creator of the age, even if the planners put in their hard work. Even if you tell people that the planners worked just as hard, which they probably have, it wouldn't be the same. IMHO, separate but equal doesn't work here.

Unless the goal is to have everyone think you are cool and important, it shouldn't matter if people think one job is better than another.

Ushgarak wrote:

No, I didn't misunderstand you...

Ushgarak wrote:

So to break out the analogy ands return to what we are debating here- really, the term 'Guild of Writers' means 'Guild of everyone involved in Age Production', and not "Guild of people who model Ages'.

Ushgarak wrote:

And so once more, mapping being called a 'Writer' onto the modelling and programming side of things alone is very much not the idea.

You do misunderstand me. I am not saying only modelers and programmers should be called Writers. I am saying that only people who actually create things should have that title. Modeling and programming are fairly large components of that, but it also includes artists, musicians, etc.

You are right, everyone deserves credit, I agree with that; however, I don't agree that everyone should have the title "Writer". They deserve credit, and they should have a title, but it should be something different, for both OOC and IC reasons. OOC, it helps clarify what they do -- Writers create content, Planners/Designers/whatever contribute design ideas, etc. IC, people who can create Ages are called Writers, people who don't have that skill, aren't.

The Noble Robot · **Joined:** Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:34 am **Posts:** 769

Ian Atrus wrote:

Quote:

However, if the only thing Rand did for the Cleft was to say "That looks good", then he did not write the Age

So the fact that he made up the place and described it in detail in BoA counts for nothing at all, because he didn't make the 3D model? Wow, that's a real incentive to join the Guild for concept artists and puzzle creators...

This is a false analogy. Of course it counts for something, in fact, as many have pointed out, it may count for more than the modeling work. But that doesn't make the "conceptulizer" a writer of that age.

And as for the film analogy, you wouldn't credit the screenwriter as the director, and you wouldn't call the gaffer a filmmaker, would you?

People have to stop thinking that limiting the definition of "writer" in any way means that people shouldn't be credited or allowed to help.

And can we all stop saying "conceptualizing takes more skill than building?" That may be true, but who cares? That's not what this is about. No one is saying that "idea people" are not important, just that they are not "Writers" in this sense...

Herohtar · **Joined:** Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:45 pm **Posts:** 2553

Ian Atrus wrote:

Quote:

However, if the only thing Rand did for the Cleft was to say "That looks good", then he did not write the Age

So the fact that he made up the place and described it in detail in BoA counts for nothing at all, because he didn't make the 3D model? Wow, that's a real incentive to join the Guild for concept artists and puzzle creators...

No, that was a hypothetical "if that was the only thing he did" (when, in fact, he did a lot more than that) Also, I am not saying concept artists and puzzle creators shouldn't get any credit -- they should! But they shouldn't have the title "Writer", because they aren't! They deserve just as much credit, but they need a different title.

Dovahn · **Joined:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:12 pm **Posts:** 107

Quote:

<snip>

Unless the goal is to have everyone think you are cool and important, it shouldn't matter if people think one job is better than another.

Herohtar, I think that many people will see it this way. It's not a good thing, but any alternate title would be "less than", almost no matter what we do. The mystique of being a "Writer" would influence someone's thoughts, even though it isn't a good thing. I think that there's no problem to call a conceptualizer a writer. Why not? It's simpler, and it keeps out the accidental judgments that people might make. In other words, it doesn't decrease the value of the other "writers" on the credit list.

Rusty_Russell · **Posted:** Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:33 pm

I suspect that there's a difference between an IC interpretation of 'writer' and an OOC one. GoW in-game will probably be an umbrella organization, covering all aspects of creating an age collectively, split into sub-groups for the specific parts.

Ushgarak · **Posted:** Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:52 pm

Herohtar wrote:

You do misunderstand me. I am not saying only modelers and programmers should be called Writers. I am saying that only people who actually create things should have that title. Modeling and programming are fairly large components of that, but it also includes artists, musicians, etc.

No, I really did not misunderstand you. As I feel my post makes clear, I disagree with you saying that only people who 'create' things should have that title. As has been generally given as the idea behind things here, everyone involved in the process of making an Age becomes so deserves to be called a Writer. That includes the designers and people doing the conceptual work. They would ALL be Writers IC, whether they 'create' something or not.

The reason I put 'create' in marks like that is because I am wary of the implication that there is nothing creative in doing the conceptual and design work.

No, everyone in the Guild, everyone contributing towards making an Age possible, should be a Writer. You keep saying they are not writers- well, they ARE! They have as much right to that title as anyone else working on the Age.

The Noble Robot wrote:

And as for the film analogy, you wouldn't credit the screenwriter as the director, and you wouldn't call the gaffer a filmmaker, would you?

No I wouldn't- and if you take another look at my post, you will see that I didn't, specifically pointing out that it is an error to think of the GoW as being something so specific as to just be one of those things; it is instead all of them. ALL of those people are Writers.

The Noble Robot wrote:

No one is saying that "idea people" are not important, just that they are not "Writers" in this sense...

And herein comes the point- because most people are saying that such people very much are Writers in that sense- including, I note, many members of the existing Age Building community. I do not think that many people wish to restrict the use of the title 'Writer' as you do. Again, that's creating unnecessary division. 'Writer' is a title that has a lot of resonance and it is very divisive to restrict its application so. Once more- everyone who puts important work into an Age deserves the title 'Writer'. Anything else would effectively be discrimination.

There is absolutely no need at all for a separate title from 'Writer' to give to people doing various different job. Everyone in the Guild contributing towards the creation of an Age is a Writer. It does not matter one tiny bit what that contribution is, so long as it is useful.

Once we have accepted that these different jobs are of equal importance, any other option does not seem to make any logical sense at all. It's a Guild of Writers. Those within it and fulfilling what is needed within it are Writers. Why make it any more complex than that? What could possibly be achieved by doing that?

That's the way things seem to be going, it seems to be the most sensible and inclusive course of action. and I can see nothing that in any way dissuades me from feeling it is definitely the best way to see it.

AtionSong · **Joined:** Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:06 pm **Posts:** 57

My opinion - It is called the Guild of Writers. Not the Guild of Age Designers, not the Guild of Modelers and the Guild of Designers, but the Guild of Writers. Therefore, every Guildsman is on an equal, and every Guildsman is a Writer.

Just my opinion. It keeps arguments to a minimum, it keeps everyone at an equal, it keeps everybody happy.

Paradox · **Posted:** Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:55 am

AtionSong wrote:

My opinion - It is called the Guild of Writers. Not the Guild of Age Designers, not the Guild of Modelers and the Guild of Designers, but the Guild of Writers. Therefore, every Guildsman is on an equal, and every Guildsman is a Writer.

Just my opinion. It keeps arguments to a minimum, it keeps everyone at an equal, it keeps everybody happy.

I agree. Everyone deserves to be called a "writer", and it will help us to avoid arguments like this in the future. No one is any more important than anyone else.

metaigahn · **Posted:** Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:50 am

I appreciate Ushgarak's film comparison. I was drafting a similar analogy (which I'm cutting short) using the OOC writing and publishing industry, which results in, well, books. Everyone involved in the production of a book has their equally important role to perform, in my opinion.

And I agree with Paradox and others -- I consider everyone involved in the production of an Age should be allowed in the Guild of Writers. And as everyone involved in the production of an Age is involved in that process, within this Guild they can (should) be entitled "Writer" in this context. If we decide to have functional subdivisions in this Guild, focusing on our specializations, we could then have "Writer-Designer", "Writer-Modeler", "Writer-Musician", etc.

Then the measure of one's participation and the merit of one's contribution can be rewarded by the various guild ranks that have been suggested.

I hope to meet some of you at the Guild of Writers meeting this Saturday.

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