It is currently Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:16 am

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 179 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 12  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:01 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:34 am
Posts: 769
Tiran wrote:
Don't count on me ;)
I'm not interested in politics and long discussions about nothing. I see my role as a technical advisor, mentor and administrator for the infrastructure but not as a politician.


If Robert and Paradox and others feel similarly, then what is the criteria for becoming one of the Guildmasters? If the established leaders of the Age building movement are not involved in its operation in the Cavern, will there be elections?

Quote:
Again the status of Guild Cadet is more an OOC status to show that a person likes to learn the techniques but doesn't feel quite good enough to call himself (or herself) a guild man.


Oh, I get it. As long as it's a optional status for those who self-identify their interest and abilities, then it's okay (perhaps a name change might still be in order, as "cadet" sounds kinda... childish? And it's also non-D'ni, a little too naval?). As you say, someone who plays a major part in designing an age would get Guilds(wo)man status (although I wish we could think of a gender-neutral title). I mean, that's a high enough bar to set anyway. I was just trying to help eliminate red tape.

_________________
KI#01165421
Hey! Visit The Jalak Registry, the source for all things Jalak. Yes, it's still open!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:50 am
Posts: 123
The Noble Robot wrote:
(although I wish we could think of a gender-neutral title)


Guildsperson? Guildshuman? Guildsbeing? Guildsthing? Guildsbipedalcarboniferouslifeform?

To be more serious, I've already been through that whole conversation frontways, backways, and sideways. Being in a co-ed fraternity (yes, girls can be in fraternities), it has come up numerous times, both on a chapter and on a national level, especially in relation to various ceremonies and our song (wherein the word "brother" is used, since the fraternity was originally all male). Ironically, some of the most steadfast proponents of keeping the current masculine wording have been women, though that doesn't mean that the same will rule here.
Guildsperson might work, though it sounds rather silly. I'm partial to Guildsbipedalcarboniferouslifeform, myself...

_________________
KI # 03593691 (Samuel Churchill)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Montgomery wrote:
Ushgarak wrote:
I do hope there becomes a good definition of what the GoW actually does. Some of this talk of things like different Guilds providing stories for the Ages etc. would seem to reduce the GoW to being mere engineers making other people's ideas become solid. That's really not what I thought was in mind; they should be the imaginers of worlds as well as the creators.

What I read of the ideas that the H'Uru crowd and so on had put forth had the idea that EVERYTHING needed to create an Age would be in the hands of the Writers, which is what interested me and how it should be, I feel.

Let me give you an example of the kind of division of labor I'm suggesting.

For a couple of years now there has been a group of people, lead by a young man from Brazil, creating a stand-alone game set in the Myst universe. This group has gotten specific approval from Cyan to design and release their game provided they do not charge for it. I happen to be on the design team, as a writer. There is a tremendous amount of backstory, character development, in-game journals, etc., all developed by the development team.

Recently the idea was suggested that this game be promoted within Uru, and so Subterranean Restorations, (essentially a group of writers and artists who are running an on-going fan-based storyline in Uru) have added it to their storyline. What that means is they will be promoting the game by letting out little bits of the backstory as they "discover" it, the IC characters will talk about it and post about it on the IC forums, and the book itself has actually become a topic as it has been stolen by looters. But SR is not adding in any way to the backstory or development of the game itself. However, for SR to do what it does requires a team of storyline writers, script writers, actors, cartographers (to provide maps and drawings of the areas SR has access to), 2d and 3d artists (to create images of artifacts or screenshots of the Ages they have access to), audio mixers (for podcast segments, interviews, etc), and on and on. It is something like SR that I would like to see formed -- and the Guild of Ideas or the Guild of Artists, or Storytellers or Fiction Writers or Authors or whatever they eventually call themselves, would be a perfect group to handle this kind of collaborative project. PR and promotion. And who knows, maybe they will come up wth a killer story that requires the creation of a particular Age that they might request the Writers to build-to-order. But their function would not be to create backstory for the Writers (unless, of course, a Writer wanted the assistance of this group of creative artists to help them out).

D'ya see? Nobody is trying to take a bite out of anyone else's pie. But there are clearly two distinct groups of creative people here, and there is enormous potential for them to cooperate.


Thanks for the explanation, but I am afraid not, I don't see at all. I really just don't see any of the storytelling or creative parts of what you describe a. belonging outside the GoW and b. working better outside of the GoW.

All the creative and design effort to create an Age like that... should be in the GoW. That stuff is VITAL to an Age iand is as much a vital part of such a Guild as 3d modelling is.

Again, I agree with Tiran. if you can contribute to Age creation in that way, you belong in the GoW. Further segregation serves no purpose. I cannot help thinking that nearly everything you are doing would absolutley work inside the GoW and I am afraid I simply don't see the need for anything else.

It is a mistake to think of the GoW as just the people who do the technical mechanics of creating an Age, vital and skilled work as that is.

The idea of a player group dedicated to creating in-game plotlines (as opposed to stories about newly crafted Ages) would be seperate, I agree... but to try and make such a Guild IC would be impossible. and it seems Guilds have to have an IC component because their dual nature is the only way they can be in-game. A group of people trying to create plots couldn't really be a Guild, because there can be no IC equivalent of what their OOC work is. Nor, really, would there be a need for such people to be a Guild. A Guild is only as useful as the IC effect it can have, after all, because otherwise it may as well just be a group of players outside the game,. not an official Cyan-sanctioned Guild. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being such a group of players. Being part of a Guild does not magically increase your creativity or abilities, and any organisational advantages can be done outside the game, whether you are being called a Guild or not. We only need this Guild system because of their IC 'penetration', as it were, within the game, and in the case of Writers because of Cyan's need to regulate something as massively troublesome as independent age creation (with some crossover there with Maintainers).

As for actors playing out roles in fan created plotlines- then yes, I agree, they aren't GoW people, but once more I don't think they fit into a Guild at all because there cannot be an IC Guild that provides game plot, even fan created stuff, unless it is part of a new Age. It simply isn;t possible, IC, for such a group to exist, nor would ther be any benefit to such a group being a Guild.

My talents are purely creative. I want to use those talents to create Ages- the ideas for Ages, the puzzles within them, the backgrounds for them, creating journals within them and even any storylines created for them. And I 100% see my function there as being a Writer, working directly alongside those of my Guild that can programme those ideas.

I am not in any way decrying your work which sounds extremely good, it's just I think there is a danger of creating an awkward ambiguity here. And surely if there is anything we want to decide at step one for the formation of any Guild at all it is going to be- what do they do?

So, in conclusion... I really don't see your creative effort as being seperate from what the GoW should be about. On the whole I don't think there are two distinct types of people here. The only possible distinction is people wanting to create or help implement plotlines that have nothing to do with new Ages, just to do with the game itself, but as I outline above, that's not really going to be in the sphere of any Guild at all as it cannot be IC. And so I feel the majority of what you describe should be part of what the GoW is about.


Last edited by Ushgarak on Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:48 am, edited 14 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:23 pm
Posts: 295
Location: California
Hawkin wrote:
Guildsperson? Guildshuman? Guildsbeing? Guildsthing? Guildsbipedalcarboniferouslifeform?

Guildsperson works -- I've used it myself. But why not simply Guildmember?







And no Austin Powers jokes. I mean it!

_________________
Image
Montgomery - Maintainer Grand Master of Inspections (ret.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:34 pm
Posts: 40
Ushgarak wrote:
All the creative and design effort to create an Age like that... should be in the GoW. That stuff is VITAL to an Age iand is as much a vital part of such a Guild as 3d modelling is.

In my opinion it depends entirely upon the person or persons involved in creating the Age. Different people have different styles and ways of creating Ages -- some will inevitably prefer working closely with a storyline or plotline of their own creation, while some will wish to expound upon the ideas of others. And in my experience the best way to serve everyone in such a group is quite simply to allow both methods.

Creative minds work in diverse ways, and the best way to encourage the Art is to allow a full spectrum of choice. After all, the Art of writing does not just require technical skill, it requires vision.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:54 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:34 am
Posts: 769
Montgomery wrote:
Hawkin wrote:
Guildsperson? Guildshuman? Guildsbeing? Guildsthing? Guildsbipedalcarboniferouslifeform?

Guildsperson works -- I've used it myself. But why not simply Guildmember?


"Guildmember" doesn't work as one word, but "Guildsmember," with an "s," might work, even if it's a little silly.

I really only brought it up because using multiple male/female terms and dealing with that darned slash is annoying, and I suppose that, yes, this is an area where PC-ness is justly called for.

I personally think that "Guild Member" will do fine.

_________________
KI#01165421
Hey! Visit The Jalak Registry, the source for all things Jalak. Yes, it's still open!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
J'anim Paedet wrote:
Ushgarak wrote:
All the creative and design effort to create an Age like that... should be in the GoW. That stuff is VITAL to an Age iand is as much a vital part of such a Guild as 3d modelling is.

In my opinion it depends entirely upon the person or persons involved in creating the Age. Different people have different styles and ways of creating Ages -- some will inevitably prefer working closely with a storyline or plotline of their own creation, while some will wish to expound upon the ideas of others. And in my experience the best way to serve everyone in such a group is quite simply to allow both methods.

Creative minds work in diverse ways, and the best way to encourage the Art is to allow a full spectrum of choice. After all, the Art of writing does not just require technical skill, it requires vision.



Well, that lest sentence is kinda exactly what I have been saying, and I believe I said something extremely similar in my post.

It is, of course, possible to create an Age which does not have that same sort of creative background- llike Jalak, for example, which is all about the technology inside it rather than any sotryline.

But that doesn't at all change the thrust of my argument. many Ages DO have such a creative background, as you seem to agree with, and I feel that that should be part of the GoW as well. This isn't really a matter oif choice, it's a matter of a, ambiguity and b, having two groups really working towards the same thing, which is simply silly.

And it is the Writers that, right now, are the ones that Cyan is making official. So soon prospective Writers are going to make a pitch to Cyan, or Reteltee, or whatever the process is, about what their Guild involves and I do rather suspect that that pitch is going to include the creative side, as outlined by Tiran and others that have been working in this area.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:34 pm
Posts: 40
Indeed, my post was in agreement to what you wrote.

Of course, there's also the kind of organization (this is the case for one of the Guild of Age Builders' projects) where an overarching storyline exists and individual members take it upon themselves to create Ages based on the pre-existing plot, but I see ample room for both this and other methods of in-guild collaboration to occur without the need to separate the story from the Art.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:23 pm
Posts: 295
Location: California
I think one or both of you should come to one or both of the All-Guild Meetings and pose this argument, as this is a topic that will be discussed at some length.

Bear in mind that there are several individuals engaged in creating a group of writers, actors, artists, videographers, shoutcasters, storytellers, poets, etc. And they may not wish to fold themselves into the GoW and be at the beck and call of the Writers. However, they are sure to want to participate in some way in Age creation. And other guilds, groups or individuals may want to engage their services, too.

Sometimes we have to remember we are a community, and while in a perfect world the GoW would have its own in-house staff of writers engaged in non-technical Age creation, this may not be the best solution for this community.

_________________
Image
Montgomery - Maintainer Grand Master of Inspections (ret.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:34 pm
Posts: 40
Oh, I'm certainly not advocating that we abolish or merge with pre-established or soon-to-be established storywriting (etc.) groups, I'm simply saying that the GoW should have the option and ability to develop its own stories and media independently.
Of course I have no desire to see separate creative groups suffer as a result. :wink:

Edit: Also, I will be attending both of the all-guild meetings as a representative of the Guild of Age Builders, and I'll be sure to call attention to this matter. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:50 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:06 pm
Posts: 57
Hey. If it's not too late, I'd love to get in on this. Currently, I'm developing the concept for a set of 4 ages. I haven't read through ever comment in the thread (I know, shoot me), but it's really easy to instert a story line into them...or not.

Anyway, one of the four ages is completely designed, one is in a stage of semi-designed, and the other two are still in concept.

I have some, but not much, experience doing the graphical and programming part that would be involved in the creation, but would still love to be a part of this project.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 2553
I've been away from home this week (still am, actually) so I haven't been able to make any of the meetings, but I just thought I'd pop in and express my interest here. Coding is my area of expertise and my ventures into Python over the past couple of months have turned out to be a lot of fun, so if you have some room for another Python guy... :)

_________________
Nothing to see here, move along.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Montgomery wrote:
Sometimes we have to remember we are a community, and while in a perfect world the GoW would have its own in-house staff of writers engaged in non-technical Age creation, this may not be the best solution for this community.


All I can really say to that is 'why not?' I really cannot see the logic behind that at all.

It really does seem very simple to me- if you are involved in the OOC work behind the creaton of Ages, then IC you are a Writer.

That's the very simple principle that should be stuck to. There may be some complications and exceptions but that is the guiding principle. Now, if you just want to write fiction and poetry and create art and all that side of things then that's just fine and dandy. But the work towards Age creation is what the Writers do, and the fictional elements of an Age are so intrinsic to the Age creation process that separation of that work is faintly ridiculous. I am also rather worried by your statement about being at the GoW's 'beck and call'. What exactly do you think the GoW is going to do with thm, enslave them? It will be a collaboration of people for common aim- to produce decent Ages for the community.

Nor does this have any implication for storyline writing groups who, as I say, really are an entirely OOC pehnomenon, without the IC component necessary to be a Guild in the way that Cyan recognisies the term.

I am absolutely not saying that creatively minded people have to be in the GoW. But I am definitely saying that the creative parts of making Ages should be in the GoW.

I cannot think for one moment why people like myself being in the GoW would not work well for the community. I cannot make sense of that. I want to be in it, judging by this thread other people like me want to be in it, those who have long been labouring on the technical work on Age creation want such people in it and have been actively inviting it, it's much more efficient for them to be in it, it makes OOC and IC sense, it is the creative Guild getting official Cyan backing... this isn't just perfect world thinking, it's simply sensible thinking.

I am far more alarmed by the implication that the GoW should be a purely technical body- that takes the soul out of it. Absolutely the best way for the GoW to work is for it to be a synthesis of the creative and background work behind the creation of Ages, and the technical skill to make that vision possible. That is the best organisation to create decent Ages- and those Ages will be of benefit to the community as a whole.

I think the most telling fact is that people are coming here, to this thread, and saying "I have creative talents in this area I want to contribute towards Age making, so I want to be a Writer." That's the bottom line, really. Frankly I think the average person would expect the GoW to have that side to it, and the idea will have a momentum of its own.

I may well come to that meeting but then I am just another explorer, really.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:23 pm
Posts: 295
Location: California
Ushgarak,

So what about the team behind Subterranean Restorations? Are you saying they should all be under the GoW umbrella? In other words, anyone who creates any content whatsoever that contributes to the totality of the Myst universe has to be in the Guild of Writers?

_________________
Image
Montgomery - Maintainer Grand Master of Inspections (ret.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:50 am
Posts: 123
Montgomery - What I think Ushgarak thought you meant was that the technical and creative ends of Age creation should be kept completely separate (i.e. the tech side should be the GoW, and the creative side something else).
Also, I don't think he meant was that everyone involved with Age creation of any form should have to be in the GoW, but that they should be able to be if they so choose (in the context of what I said above).

Basically, I agree with the thought that anyone involved with Age creation (be it story/concept writing, art, programming, 3D design, etc.) should be allowed to be a member of the GoW, since it keeps everyone involved together in the same place. It would make the flow of ideas and work much smoother, faster, and just all around better. Much less confusion and fewer ideas lost in transit. Once I get more experience using the various programs involved, I can potentially work both ends, so it isn't a particularly big issue for me, but I can understand where Ushgarak is coming from.

_________________
KI # 03593691 (Samuel Churchill)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 179 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 12  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron