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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:08 pm 
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Eleri wrote:
Shouldn't we be *WAITING* to organize, until Cyan shows us what their system is? Or are people putting cart before horse in their enthusiasm for the word GUILD?


I'm a bit worried, too. People are moving too fast and some are trying to accomplish too many things at the same time. For example why are we already discussing details of age creation and interaction between GoW and GoMa? We haven't even figured out how the guilds are suppose to work.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:32 pm 
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Right. It's one thing for people to be saying "We'd like the Guild of X to have these features, and this structure for people joining, and this sort of logo..."

But to start now saying "We're the Guild of X!" it's too much, too fast. We're in the brainstorming, suggestion, bet-Cyan-is-watching-to-see-what-they-can-fit-into-their-plan stage.

Zardoz had good ideas about the GoM... someone else could come along and say "How about the GoM uses the Town Hall concept from the D'net, the episode relay ideas from the Relayers, and the podcasting ideas of TCT."

Then, if people want to get involved *NOW*, they can go to those groups and offer their services. (Yes, the D'net is D'funct {thanks Marten!}. If I suddenly got a dozen or more people going "Holy Bahro! We didn't know about the D'net! How can we help??" I might even re open.)

By putting your energies and efforts into existing groups that are doing the work you think a future guild should do, you are showing Cyan that there is both a need for that skill, and people willing to DO.

THEN, when Cyan goes to ACTUALLY create the guilds, they can say "Hey, Joe's KImail News, would you be willing to become part of the Guild of Messengers?"

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:43 pm 
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Think guilds, think blueprint for the time being. We're still working on the design documents. Implementation is some way off. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:00 pm 
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Eleri --

I think you have a lot of good points. I'm fortunate in that I haven't been involved in any sort of Uru organization, so I'm sort of coming at all of this from a fresh angle and with loads of probably excessive optimism. :wink:

Guild of Maintainers is in a very different situation from Guild of Messengers. There are very few pre-existing organizations that do what the Maintainers might do, and I believe we have most of them on-board already (though I haven't heard from Guild of Guardians, and don't know how to reach them).

Most of what we're doing right now is brainstorming, like what you were saying in your first paragraph, trying to come up with everything we think we could possibly do, and trying to get some basics laid out. Nothing's set in stone yet, and I'd like to think that we're flexible enough to evolve when we get a bit more clue from the DRC.

It would be great if we could do some activities to show our enthusiasm and get things going, and we're planning on having a meeting to discuss some in-cavern activities next week. But I don't think the potential GoMaintainers can easily go to any pre-existing in-cavern groups. GoInspectors is mostly limited to SR storyline at this point, I think. I believe they're pretty much on-board for inclusion in the GoMaintainers when the group actually gets officially rolling? (Correct me if I'm wrong, Montgomery, please.) And like I said, no contact with GoGuardians.

So we are trying to evolve more wholecloth, incorporating all the ideas we can so far, trying to do what we can with what little we have.

I'm hoping that the next sweeps week gets us lots of information, though I really wish we'd get it a little earlier so we could take a more active role when sweeps hits.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:59 pm 
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hmm.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:54 pm 
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Eleri wrote:


Examining these two statements, it seems Cyan is saying:

"Go ahead and plan, and make a Guild of *whatever*, but we'll be making our own system in the future, when we're ready."


Yep

Quote:
What assurances do any of us have that any effort put towards building a guild, of any structure, will mean anything when Cyan launches 'official' Guilds?


None

Quote:
Why are we being asked to do work, when something different will be used by the Cyan in the future?


Who's asking you? Guilds will be months / years off.

Quote:
Shouldn't we be *WAITING* to organize, until Cyan shows us what their system is? Or are people putting cart before horse in their enthusiasm for the word GUILD?


You tell me. Even if Cyan came out today and said stop organizing guilds people would still do it.

Cyan is just giving you a heads up that Cyan version of the guild system might be different then the one produced by the fans.

So proceed at your own risk.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:04 pm 
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That is good information, GD. It gives us a framework to work within, and a clear understanding that what we do now, might not be exactly is used in the future.

That helps clear up any expectations people might have, and frees people up to build, without second guessing that they're doing what Cyan wants.

As long as people go into it with a clear understanding that they aren't the 'offical' Guild of Whatever, and that they may not become the official "Guild of Whatever", then it should all be good.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:39 pm 
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I see posts with statements like J'arho's above....
J'arho wrote:
Proud member of Maintainers Guild

... and it bothers me. It is a claim to hold membership in a legitimate organization which, at this moment, does not have legitimate authority to exist under that name. It may as well say, "Proud Member of the 53rd Star Force Defense Grid" because it is about as absurd.

Following Eleri's choice of words, a more accurate and tolerable statement would be:
Quote:
Proud member of the Unofficial Maintainers Guild

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:27 pm 
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Marten wrote:
Following Eleri's choice of words, a more accurate and tolerable statement would be:
Quote:
Proud member of the Unofficial Maintainers Guild

Well-said, Marten. Or perhaps better still:
Quote:
Proud Supporter of the future Maintainers Guild

... since there isn't even an unofficial guild, yet. And the purpose of Kirel was to show support for the guilds by wearing t-shirts.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:46 pm 
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greydragon wrote:
Eleri wrote:
Why are we being asked to do work, when something different will be used by the Cyan in the future?

Who's asking you? Guilds will be months / years off.

Hmmm. Nobody is asking us to in so many words, but there is one fiery abyss of an implied carrot in the form of the announced Guild Pubs and the appointment of a Guild Advisor. Seems neither would have the slightest purpose or function if there was no expectation of the explorers "doing the work" of designing the guilds.

GD, is there at least some intention -- if not assurance -- that whatever structures the guild community design, Cyan will at least consider them when designing the structure you eventually impose? (If that sounds beligerent or combative it isn't meant to; that just seems to be the best choice of words. :) )

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:14 pm 
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gd said
Quote:
Quote:
What assurances do any of us have that any effort put towards building a guild, of any structure, will mean anything when Cyan launches 'official' Guilds?


None

Quote:
Why are we being asked to do work, when something different will be used by the Cyan in the future?


Who's asking you? Guilds will be months / years off.


My answer is a simple "So what?", this has been a interesting project so far. Depending on the answers that the "DRC" gives between episode IC may be given a much needed boost.

What it gets called is less important then what it may become.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Nothing will happen if no one tries. So what if Cyan doesn't accept your guild design? At least you did something.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 am 
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Eleri wrote:
What assurances do any of us have that any effort put towards building a guild, of any structure, will mean anything when Cyan launches 'official' Guilds? Why are we being asked to do work, when something different will be used by the Cyan in the future?

Shouldn't we be *WAITING* to organize, until Cyan shows us what their system is? Or are people putting cart before horse in their enthusiasm for the word GUILD?


Eleri is right, we have no assurances. :roll:

I have been with the GoC (Cartographers) since 2004. While Cyan has not always done things as the community wanted, they have been influenced by the community and, on occasion, changed their plans.

Until Uru is an excellent example of Cyan working with the community. When UL shut down and Cyan said there was no hope. But the community did not give up. Today we are playing MOUL.

The age builders and those hacking the game to build the shard servers had no assurances of any kind. Still they did not wait.

It is your choice to wait or not.

The COG has 3 web sites and its own section at UO. We have never waited on Cyan. We saw this as a game we liked, we had fun with it. I for one still do. Just do what you think will be fun. Avoid getting attached to what you think Cyan will do. Don't have any expectations of what Cyan or other guild members may do. DO your thing and lead. If the group goes another direction... Oh, well! Change direction or go out on your own.

Our efforts making maps and surveying are what got us where the Goc is now. UO wanted to post our maps. Some of them are gorgeous. I think, on their own, they (UO operators) decided to give the group a section at UO. I am very happy that we have a very special section there. One great boon was the removal of age limits on our posts. It has allowed us to have some historically long threads that show the advance of our guild.

The other GoC sites were built by fans. :P

Some of the members have worked with Cyan employees on some issues. Others have been approached by Cyan's people for opinions and permissions (and no I won't discuss those I know of). Which I think shows that Cyan is VERY fan oriented. I think they will do well by us (read as all of us). :D

OFFICIAL?

Martin wrote:
... and it bothers me. It is a claim to hold membership in a legitimate organization which, at this moment, does not have legitimate authority to exist under that name. It may as well say, "Proud Member of the 53rd Star Force Defense Grid" because it is about as absurd.


Wow! “Bothered…” :roll:

I consider myself a member of the GoC and Aiden is the Grand Master of the Guild. He wanted the job, was building a fan site and the rest of us active at the time did not feel like an election. So we stuck him with the title. Thankfully he is doing the job.

Since the start of the Guild, membership has been a matter of deciding one’s self was/is a member and so stating. That is OFFICIAL as it has ever been in GoC.

DRC liaisons went through elections. I’m not sure that made them any more OFFICIAL.

This is about FUN, not OFFICIAL.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:04 am 
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Should you wait to do something that you want to do, whether it be hacking Uru files, making maps, setting up websites or whatever? No.

However, if what you want to do is something that is 'official' (or your goal is to be official someday), then you have to go forward with the understanding that what you build may NOT be what Cyan wants (for whatever reason). You may be rendered obsolete if the game goes in a different direction. Your efforts might be undermined by the appearance of an official alternative as people flock to the 'real' organization and ignore your efforts.

Of course, Cyan may simply step up and say, "Hey, good job, yer official!" They seem to have with the GoG at the very least.

Yes, it should be about fun instead of official. Yet many people are still planning on what they are organizing as being 'official.' The point is, however, that until Cyan actually explains its plans (and everything I've read seem to indicate that Cyan has some definite ideas about things), then you are taking a gamble that your hard work will be pushed aside. That's something that you need to keep in mind as you plan things.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:55 am 
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"until Cyan actually explains its plans (and everything I've read seem to indicate that Cyan has some definite ideas about things), then you are taking a gamble that your hard work will be pushed aside. "

If you make your own plans, you take the risk that Cyan's plans won't take yours into account. If you *don't* make your own plans, you *guarantee* that Cyan's plans won't take yours into account.

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