Reteltee's challenge to scholars

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:08 am

Well, as some of you might have read in the logs (or heard in person,) I asked Reteltee some tough questions about letting explorers help the DRC with translations. His responses were as follows:

Quote:

Reteltee: So I don't think they're going to give up that control easily...not saying they never will, but I think first we have to show them as an Explorer community that we can take that burden from them
DocOlanA: Okay, how would you suggest we start to show them that?
Reteltee: Well...I don't think my honest answer to that would go over too well
DocOlanA: If it's the honest answer, say it anyways.

(Reteltee spoke at length about how negative explorers are the loudest, and how that distresses the DRC. Read the whole log elsewhere if your'e interested. However, finally he says)

Reteltee: The best thing to do right now, IMO, is to turn those scholarly energies into studying what the Cavern IS right now, and trying to determine how we get it to what it is we want it to BE

All right. We scholars have been given a challenge. I, for one, intend on picking up this gauntlet. Let's begin organizing a Guild of Archivists. I've got some ideas of how we can begin analyzing what we already know about the D'ni, and the Ages we already have access to. I want to hear other such ideas.

TIME: 1400 Cavern Time (4 PM Eastern)
DATE: Saturday, September 22nd (two weeks from today)
PLACE: The Students of D'ni Knowledge's Bevin

That gives us two weeks to come up with some working proposals for the Guild of Archivists. I'd like this to be a meeting open to everyone. We've got lots of people, like SR, the SoDK, the DLF, and such who specialize in D'ni, and I'd like groups like the D'ni Zoological Society to help us as well. The mid-day time hopefully will let our European friends join us as well.

Shorah b'Shemtee

ces · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:36 am

I hate to say this ... but if you really want our European Friends to be a part, you should have 2 meetings - one in the U.S. timeframe and one in the European timeframe.

MustardJeep · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:39 am

I'll try to be there it is an interesting topic.

The best advice I can give is follow Cyans own rules for Fan work. If you do that most of the stumbling blocks will be out of your way.

ireenquench · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 5:06 pm **Posts:** 1591

I'd like some clarification... would this endeavour be scholarly or creative/original or both and if both, how so?
And yes, please remember the Europeans.

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:06 am

ireenquench wrote:

I'd like some clarification... would this endeavour be scholarly or creative/original or both and if both, how so?
And yes, please remember the Europeans.

It would be scholarly. We're completely following the "no original material." However, I've been thinking about it, and although some of the scholars have come up with brilliant conclusions based on what we already know, there's still more that we could do.

Also, right now there's a lot of groups researching various things. The DZS has done some interesting studies of flora and fauna, the SoDK has made some researches into the journals and what we know of D'ni history, the DLF has discovered some things about the D'ni due to their linguistic structure, etc. I think it's time for these groups to more fully work together, in preparation for an "official" guild of such things. This gives us an opportunity to figure out a structure now, so that when the time comes all we really need is official sanction, and we're already ready to go.

ireenquench · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 5:06 pm **Posts:** 1591

Ok, then this is something different from what you posted here? Because that idea seems more like "original/creative (on a scholarly basis)"

andylegate · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:41 pm

Doc,

You need to check out our discussion over at the Assembly of Guilds here:

Guild Of Archivist Discussion

We've been talking about a GoAc over at the Pre-GoMa forum. Basically, the idea was to form a GoAc possibly since the Maintainers would have kept very detailed records about Ages and Events.

Right now our discussion has turned to a rather brilliant idea that would involve many different Guilds and Orgs. A Book of Commintary, basically information about everything that there is to know that actually ends up being IN the cavern, so people can access information while IN the cavern and not having to always go to forums and websites online.

We would welcome anything you could add or say there. This is going to be a BIG project that we're working on.

Andy Legate

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:22 pm

ireenquench wrote:

Ok, then this is something different from what you posted here? Because that idea seems more like "original/creative (on a scholarly basis)"

That idea was . . . well, how to say this nicely.

Shot down.

It's still my dream. I still intend to push it as much as possible. I think it's ultimately the only possible way to go. In the meantime, Reteltee has challenged us to prove we CAN make a working GoA. So I will.

I'll head over to the existing GoA and see what's up. And I hope everyone currently involved over there will come to the meeting.

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:37 pm

Would you believe I don't yet have a login over at uruguilds.org? I don't believe it. I thought I'd signed up long ago. Apparently I'm more of a lurker than I thought.

Anyways, since it will take time for my account to be approved, I'll answer here. Last I had heard, the GoA was an old group that wasn't really doing much anymore. Had I known that people had been planning a resurgence of the GoA as early as August, I would have invited them to the first meeting especially. I'm trying to be a facilitator, not a dictator, and since those guys have been working on it for a month, I'd be glad for them to show up at the meeting to bring their expertise.

Just a little clarification about what I want, however.

1. I don't want "new discoveries". SR has that locked down, and they're welcome to it. I think what they do is awesome, but I'm interested in canon, not "oh my, we've discovered a new age." If I wanted that, there's always fanfiction.net (again, SR does that, and a lot of players love their "player created storylines," that is awesome. It's just not what I'm looking for, and I don't think it will eventually get me what I want, i.e., a DRC sponsored guild.)

2. That said, there's a heck of a lot of new discoveries to be made. What does the flora, fauna, and climate of Teledahn tell us about the structure of the age? What's the astronomical configuration of that system, to make the sun spin so fast? How flat would the planet be from momentum alone with such a rapid rotation? Is it even possible, or are we looking at a Kadish-esque illusion? Questions like these require research and hard work, but I think the payoff would be awesome.

3. Age. Commentaries. Are. A. Great. Idea. 'Nuff said.

belford · **Joined:** Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:01 pm **Posts:** 1890

I've said this before...

I view the "no originality" "rule" as... well... a big red target. That is: the first thing you have to be creative about is in sidestepping the rule.

That's how I dealt with my Plum Lake thread a few months ago. If people *want to see what you're posting*, and you give them an excuse to buy into it, they'll take the excuse happily. And if you don't bother the DRC, they won't bother you.

andylegate · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:06 pm

Doc,

Did you read through our entire thread over at the AoG?

We were discussing the different kinds of records, but nothing at all has been decided or written in stone.
Some of us are split on the issue of "Original / Established" material, and we hope to find a compromise at our meetings.

We're taking this slow and steady as there is one goal that we at the Pre-GoMa have, and that's to become official. We are well aware that there may be many things we have to change if this happens. In the meantime we're also trying to avoid several things:

1) People suddenly declaring themselves leader or leaders.
We're working hard on trying to establish a sensible structure for leadership, and then to establish it, in a way that will make sure that nothing is written in stone and can't be changed.

2) Telling other guilds and establishments that they fall under us, or any other guild for that mater. That can be seen as a "power move" and people are afraid that is going to happen, so much so, that they are actually against any kind of guilds at all! We instead want to ask guilds to work with us, but by no means would we ever presume that such and such guild falls under our guild or anyone elses. People have worked hard and spent a lot of time forming what they have. We're not about to suggest taking away from them. Point in fact, your mention of my guild, the Guild Of Astronomy falling under the Guild Of Archivists is wrong. If my guild falls under any guild, it would be that of the Cartographers, as we map the skies!

3) Creating friction with the DRC. This is the one thing we DO NOT want. As it is the DRC that can make our guild official. That might sound like we are "bowing" to them, but point in fact; the DRC IS in charge. If we don't like something that has to be with the DRC, we plan on trying to work with them and talk with them, but we will not challenge them.

Please take the time to look at all the threads over at the AoG under the Guild Of Maintainers, I'm sure you'll see what it is that we are trying to accomplish.

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:18 am

andylegate wrote:

1) People suddenly declaring themselves leader or leaders.
We're working hard on trying to establish a sensible structure for leadership, and then to establish it, in a way that will make sure that nothing is written in stone and can't be changed.

Leadership is necessary. Leadership is also far more trouble than it's worth. Anyone who tries for it better show that they can do what it takes. In the beginning, we don't need solid structure, and I'd almost rather have a ruling council at first than anything. By the time the size and scope gets so large that we NEED a set power structure, we should have a good idea of who's in it to serve the community, and who's in it for the power.

Quote:

2) Telling other guilds and establishments that they fall under us, or any other guild for that mater. That can be seen as a "power move" and people are afraid that is going to happen, so much so, that they are actually against any kind of guilds at all! We instead want to ask guilds to work with us, but by no means would we ever presume that such and such guild falls under our guild or anyone elses. People have worked hard and spent a lot of time forming what they have. We're not about to suggest taking away from them. Point in fact, your mention of my guild, the Guild Of Astronomy falling under the Guild Of Archivists is wrong. If my guild falls under any guild, it would be that of the Cartographers, as we map the skies!

And how would we enforce this telling? Who's coming up with this craziness? If people want to join us, they can. If people don't, they don't. But of course, we're going for official sanction, so joining us has advantages.

Quote:

3) Creating friction with the DRC. This is the one thing we DO NOT want. As it is the DRC that can make our guild official. That might sound like we are "bowing" to them, but point in fact; the DRC IS in charge. If we don't like something that has to be with the DRC, we plan on trying to work with them and talk with them, but we will not challenge them.

Not only will we not challenge them, but we will accept each and every one of their decisions. They want us to restrict our research? We will. They want us to sign NDAs? We will. We don't like it? Then we work with them politely. We are volunteers in their professional playground. Anyone who can't bring themselves to work with the DRC, and Cate, and all the restrictions and harsh strictures that brings . . . well then, I'm not talking about the right group for you.

I'm tossing this out there. Some people will share my vision, will join me, and we'll all be stronger. Some people will think I'm a sell-out, and that my "no fanfiction" rule is far too strict. That's fine too. I'm not against anyone, I think all the groups should be working together.

Deius · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:45 am

DocOlanA wrote:

I'm trying to be a facilitator, not a dictator

DocOlanA wrote:

Just a little clarification about what I want, however.

DocOlanA wrote:

I don't want...

DocOlanA wrote:

It's just not what I'm looking for, and I don't think it will eventually get me what I want, i.e., a DRC sponsored guild.

DocOlanA, I'm sorry to quote you so grossly out of context, but are you mobilizing out of service to the community, or for other reasons? I ask this for clarification, not as an accusal. You have given much to the community and I respect that, but I'm not so sure that the "what I want" approach is going to fly with a community worried about exclusion.

Again, I have a lot of respect for you, so please don't think I am attacking your ideas. I'm just very unsure about your approach - unless I have misunderstood.

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:12 am

Deius wrote:

DocOlanA, I'm sorry to quote you so grossly out of context, but are you mobilizing out of service to the community, or for other reasons? I ask this for clarification, not as an accusal. You have given much to the community and I respect that, but I'm not so sure that the "what I want" approach is going to fly with a community worried about exclusion.

Again, I have a lot of respect for you, so please don't think I am attacking your ideas. I'm just very unsure about your approach - unless I have misunderstood.

I understand your concern. However, right now, this is what I want. That's one reason why I'm hoping as many people as possible come to the meeting Saturday after next, so I can talk about what I want, other people can talk about what they want, we can work with each other and listen to each other, and end up, ultimately, figuring out what WE want.

Forgive me for using the word "I" so much in the post, but I don't yet speak for anyone but myself. I didn't want to insult anyone by assuming that my goals and motivations (namely, improving Uru by getting more content about the D'ni into the cavern,) were anyone else's. After the meeting on the 22nd, then hopefully we'll have something of a consensus (times in the past when scholars have worked together, for me at least, have been good experiences, so I have high hopes for the meeting.)

Deius · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:39 pm

Thanks for the clarification. I understand what you are getting at, and I too hope a consensus can be reached.

Reteltee's challenge to scholars

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