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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:21 pm 
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I may be speaking out of turn again but was wondering how the user or team created ages will be presented to the explorers.

Are you just going to toss the books in the cavern or where ever and hope that the messengers spread the word and greeters know how to help or are you going to have episodes of your own with actors and scripts to introduce a back story for the new ages...? Hints that they are coming... teasers.... schedule a week and include everyone in the intrege?

There is an awful lot of discussion over who wants to do what and who has things already in progress but we may need the full cast of characters with all the guilds participating in an explorer created episode. How will we communicate our ideas to each other and to the other guilds.

Up till now the DRC/Cyan has directed our attention to their ideas. Maybe some have considered what a collaborative idea this whole guild building experience should be but I'm not sure we all understand?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:20 pm 
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Why haven't we all been polled or surveyed on what Ages we'd like to see, what elements the majority enjoys, what puzzles we love, what our priorities across all guilds will be?

And who will they present to? Cyan? Us? The DRC? Other Guilds?

I'm just going to have to bite my tongue about what is happening here. But if this is a Cyan test to see if we can pull together as a community, as a self-sustaining civilization, this ain't a great start.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:55 pm 
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Perhaps focusing on getting the Guild running would be better than jumping into what Ages we are going to have.

How Ages are presented in game will depend largely on Cyan (for MOUL). For Uru CC we have Uru Library Manager.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:59 pm 
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I'm not sure people realize just how hard level design is. We need to give people time to figure out how to make an Age before we start figuring out content and distribution.

What I mean to say is that the discussions of this sort of thing won't come into play until the second or third wave of actual ages; it would be best not to attempt to get the people making them to start wrangling with these problems while they're doing de_box levels.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:04 am 
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We need concept first, and priorities. I said I'd bite my tongue and I will.

Oh, thanks Tweek. I'm glad the guilds haven't leaped blindly on their own into development.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:54 am 
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Ok, how do I phrase this so I don't get bad responses...

Part of what I see is a number of hard working, well intentioned, explorers that already have projects in production and many that want to have projects in production. The sticky part seems to be a way to pull them all together without hurting or ignoring someone else.

I have been promoting inclusion all month and have no stake in any of these ventures since I have not found where I will fit in. That does not mean I don't understand or want to participate...

My postings (and some or all may be annoying but I don't hear many asking generic questions or not intimately involved in building...) are just offered as suggestions to get a common thread for those who want to participate. Some postings seem to indicate that writers are exclusive, maintainers are exclusive, messengers are exclusive when I don't see it that way.... an alternative would be that a bunch of members of each guild will need to work with a bunch of members of another guild in order to develop a story and present it to the cavern. And I may very well be terribly wrong.

But we have explorers trying to gather those interested in only one concept of their guild and others trying to establish lines of communication between the guilds when there is little structure to communicate too.

Thought, if a bigger picture was established from the start that the actors and story tellers would feel just as needed as the ones doing the programming and artwork in the writers.

And why not think about the whole picture when planning for the future? It may give some an idea of how or where they can fit in to all of this... The GoME are sometimes not even sure why they need a guild let alone find a common ground. Many of these guilds have to be broad in order to let everyone who needs too- participate... or think about it... And if there is already tension or withdrawal it will be harder to draw them in when the time comes.

Tweek- are you sure that all of the parties interested are already involved in the planning process or are you hoping they will be allowed or given permission to participate after the decision is made by someone else? someone "official"?

I'm just running out of ways to say these guild's views are not broad enough. We are relying on the GOG as a guide and they are very specialized. They do their guilds mission fantastically but with a limited task.

The rest of us that just aren't sure where we belong may end up in the GoC to contribute just because they are the only ones willingly open to everyone- with welcoming arms.

Some don't seem to be willing to offer any accommodations for smaller specializations brought in under the umbrella of the guild home- just because it doesn't fit the perceived notion of the historic or traditional guild mission that the title implies.

Will I be able to go to Paradox or Robert the Rebuilder or Whylam or whoever and say- I have an idea or I would like to offer help and be told that if I am a member of the guild I could? or to wait until they run it through the bureaucratic system to get a general consensus from the rest of their guild before I can participate? And without figuring out the larger goals how will you know you have included every creative person you will need? Or will we have very generous leaders in all the guilds who are quick to see a valued idea from the outside or admit what they were missing and quickly ask for help from the rest of us? hummmm- I'm not sure....

Can't have workable concepts without a big vision. Or we are right back to cramming the little specialized groups into the same five categories and see who is interested after the debate ends- just like we are now....

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:11 am 
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I think the Guild of Writers (and to a limited extent Cartographers) are somewhat unique among the Guilds in that they produce something. Like it or not, there will have to be some restrictive standards.

I don't expect at all that every player-made age that gets created will find its way onto our bookcases. It's rather more likely that Cyan will screen submissions to ensure they are commensurate with the level of detail already in the game. To do otherwise would destroy the suspension of disbelief. That's not to say that surreal or creative approaches to modeling will be rejected--that's an aesthetic choice on behalf of the Writer and I wouldn't think (barring offensive content) would be an issue.

Similarly, there are standards in the GoC. We keep them deliberately loose to allow for as much artistic expression as possible, but in the end there have already been some attempts that haven't been accepted (not because of skill, but because of clarity--if you can't read a map it's not very useful, even if it is artistic and pretty to look at). And when Cyan makes an official GoC I expect they will set standards for maps of their own.

Still, I find it hard to think that any one guild could turn someone away who truly wanted to help in some fashion regardless of their talent or skill. Heck, I'll be the first to say my maps are nowhere near as good as some of my Guildsmen and Women. But I bring other talents to the table like web authoring and the ability to make long winded speeches like this one. The point is we all have something we can do, and there's no point in worrying that if you let someone into the guild they won't pull their own weight. Because, in reality, everyone's "own weight" is zero. Nothing. We all do what we do because we like to.

So relax, enjoy the game, and have fun.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:31 am 
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Aiden, I understand your point and hope that the guilds will be as open as possible even if it is full of specialized smaller teams.

I may be entirely wrong and this current state of the guild formation is the way it should be or will be....

My real goal in offering any of my thoughts is to make sure that any explorer who "wants" to participate in a guild will have the opportunity to find a community that they will be welcome in and not told they need to jump hoops just to find a home. There may very well be creative explorers who's ideas haven't even been heard or considered - right now or in the future.

Not everyone has been as generous or welcoming as your guild. I felt very at home and comfortable when I visited. But if I was someone new- watching the discussions on this forum only- I would hesitate to even try and join in the conversation or ask if someone with a different but related skill could join in. And finding the right person to ask may be difficult.

There are a lot of hard working guild builders- and I still admire what they are doing but they can't think of everything and I hope they will still keep an open mind even after this exercise in patience is over.

I have maintained my guild support stance because I think it is important for the cavern, the explorers and the future... just like the other side to be heard as well. I want to be able to explain to any explorer they can contribute from within the guilds if they want too and we will show them how.

edit to add- if you were going to make a movie- you could choose to make a small documentary to maintain control and live with limited audience and interest. But if you want to have a large box office blockbuster you must be able to have planners, storyboards, writers, actors, producers, directors, editors, sound engineers, production staff and promotions along with a multitude of other support staffs like location scouters, caterers, grips, on and on. That's the way you get the big movie with the box office draw. That entails an awful lot of bodies, time and great organization skills. And all of that, metaphorically speaking, in some form or another- will have to come from the five guilds... of course, down the line- in the future... Doesn't hurt to think about it?

That's the reason for the initial question posed by this post...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:57 pm 
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Jenine wrote:
Tweek- are you sure that all of the parties interested are already involved in the planning process or are you hoping they will be allowed or given permission to participate after the decision is made by someone else? someone "official"?

I'm just running out of ways to say these guild's views are not broad enough. We are relying on the GOG as a guide and they are very specialized. They do their guilds mission fantastically but with a limited task.

The rest of us that just aren't sure where we belong may end up in the GoC to contribute just because they are the only ones willingly open to everyone- with welcoming arms.

Some don't seem to be willing to offer any accommodations for smaller specializations brought in under the umbrella of the guild home- just because it doesn't fit the perceived notion of the historic or traditional guild mission that the title implies.

Will I be able to go to Paradox or Robert the Rebuilder or Whylam or whoever and say- I have an idea or I would like to offer help and be told that if I am a member of the guild I could? or to wait until they run it through the bureaucratic system to get a general consensus from the rest of their guild before I can participate? And without figuring out the larger goals how will you know you have included every creative person you will need? Or will we have very generous leaders in all the guilds who are quick to see a valued idea from the outside or admit what they were missing and quickly ask for help from the rest of us? hummmm- I'm not sure....


You would need to take that up with the Guild of Writers.

It should be noted that not everyone will fit in now. There are only 15 guilds out of many more.

It should also be noted that just because a Guild is proposed now, it may not succeed. Timing can be an issue, the the atmosphere is ripe for say the Guild of Messengers, then it will come into being.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:14 pm 
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That's a good point, Tweek, the timing issue. I think it will pay in the long run to keep informed about a much as possible concerning the guilds. Too bad we don't have some kind of communication vehicle that could give us weekly round-ups.....

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:59 pm 
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Yep, everyone will not be included right now, only want the options to stay open for those interested... Many are not interested at all and content to wait.

Nope, we don't know if any of this is even close to what Cyan intends- they have left it vague and must have anticipated the ongoing debates or they are not as brilliant as I like to think they are. :wink:

If they had anticipated the all the various established individuals and groups that were going to want to take part in the "game" and really wanted to avoid the current discussions that were inevitably going to happen- they would have given us more choices from the beginning.

I tend to believe Cyan is very intelligent and had a good idea of what would happen. This was an exercise in seeing if there was interest and finding out where. And if there were enough explorers interested in guild formation- not conveniently slotted into the five allowed - they would listen to those ideas and possibly make a change. the old "watchers are watching".

But I have never heard this mentioned by any explorer- the possibility of petitioning the DRC for adding another generic named guild to recieve DRC approval - only the rumblings that if they couldn't fit in the five- they would just leave and go of to do their own thing.

If we have to play within the boundaries of the "game" why not do it? Gather the largest group of say creative writers, (not game programmers but writers)- that would include the historians, translators, story developers, archivers, etc... a whole group of groups willing to work together- that just couldn't seem to find a home in one of the five. What is stopping them from working up a formal proposal of their own and going to Reteltee - asking him to take their proposal to the DRC. It may not happen this episode or the one after, or ever, whatever- But they would have gathered together, gotten to know each other and become a creative force of their own- even without a title or pub. Little splinter groups are great for friends and companions but if you want to think bigger - you need even more ideas and a bigger crowd.

We aren't taking advantage of the tools we have and thinking outside of the box... There are things we can do. There are new ways of looking at what you have and using it in new innovative ways. Our avies have a limited interaction with the physical game - but there are many options for playing this game that we haven't explored or even thought of.

Play the game! Re-examine what you are so used to doing and try to see if there is another way of doing it- better - more challenging. Gosh, the age puzzles were much harder for me to solve than finding new ways to approach guild building or fresh uses for KI mail and imagers. Find a creative way to surprise Cyan with your ingenuity and you may get noticed.

Use the explorer base you have and listen to what some of the outside voices are saying. We don't have a vested interest in your guild and may be able to offer some suggestions and guidance that is not self serving or trying to influence a proposal one way or the other. It is hard to be objective when you are protecting your interests or passionately involved. That is where we unintentionally get in each others way.

"Guild" is really only a word. But there is a lot of different underlying tones that simple word can have. Those new splinter groups that take as their own with whatever word after, may show a rebellious nature- while if used truly as a gathering of many, many, with a common interest, good organization, and generous mission statement- may get their wish. The GOG was unofficial first and had to apply to get it's label. There is no reason why it could not be done again with a little organized passion.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:27 pm 
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You know, they may be interested in undergoing an actual discovery process, as opposed to trying to scheme against the playerbase in an effort to realize their own idea of what a Guild system would look like.

This 'as Cyan intended it' stuff is contingent on the notion that Cyan intends that anything happen in the first place, and frankly I don't think they do. They want to be collaborative.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:46 pm 
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I think that is right! Thought more about it and posted my answer in this thread:
http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12773

Sometimes it takes me a while to come up with an answer on my own!

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