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 Post subject: Meeting for the SAPS
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:32 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:31 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Colorado
I thought I'd let everyone know that I'll be having a discussion with another interested explorer about setting up the Society of Anthropologists, Psychologists, and Sociologists. We are going to meet at 8pm Cavern time Monday in the Kirel auditorium.

I know there are some who are interested here so I'd thought I'd let them know about it. If you can make it come along and join the discussion. :wink:
Then maybe I don't have to say anything.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:28 pm
Posts: 556
Location: USA

I mean.....that's like the Stable's comercial where the acronym of their name spells: D.I.N.G.B.A.T.S. ..... LOL!!

Why not change the word Society to something else, like Club: CAPS


Department: DAPS


Organization: OAPS


National Society: NSAPS ? :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:06 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:31 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Colorado
Could make it with an "D" at the beginning for D'ni Society, but then it would DSAPS or D-SAPS which really have the same kinda meaning. Anyway I like SAPS, have you ever meet an anthropologist that wasn't a little sappy?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:32 am
Posts: 69
Location: Ohio
I came up with SPADES last night . . . Sociological, Psychological, and Anthropological D'ni Explorers Society. Same letters could be rearranged into into PASSED (Psychological, Anthropological, and Sociological Society of Explorers of D'ni) or just PASS. SPAS is another option with the current set ( Sociological, Psychological, and Anthropological Society).

The name SAPS is meant as a mild joke on the tendency of intellectuals to fail to pay particular attention to the what their acronym might spell (without being as negative as DINGBATS).

I am open to suggestions on the name of the group, but I really like "society" over most other possible names. I might be open to "association". I am open to substituting "social scientific" for the names of the disciplines in any proposed name for the group.

Overall, I still favor SAPS or SPADES (digging has a nice connotation both for exploring D'ni in general and especially as it relates to archaeological anthropology)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:05 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:32 am
Posts: 69
Location: Ohio
Tonight! tonight!

Just a reminder to bump this up. 8pm KI time in the Kirel Community Hall all those interested in a group of social scientists analyzing what we know of D'ni based on real world approaches and findings.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:35 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:31 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Colorado
For anyone interested here is the log from the discussion:

10/23 02:07:46) Chat.log started...
(10/23 02:07:48) Gui: Meeting about the formation of a society of Psychologists, Anthropologiests, and something else.
(10/23 02:07:52) *clip
(10/23 02:08:01) *EDIT
(10/23 02:08:03) From Horatio252: yes, we have not started yet
(10/23 02:08:05) *cut
(10/23 02:08:17) From Horatio252: how do I stop talking ot individuals
(10/23 02:08:29) Monkeyboy: clikc Age players
(10/23 02:08:42) Monkeyboy: Ok So, here we are, everyone...
(10/23 02:08:46) *destroyed
(10/23 02:09:00) Todoni waves hello
(10/23 02:09:01) Monkeyboy: yes shilow, a meeting for the SAPS
(10/23 02:09:09) *shredded
(10/23 02:09:13) Monkeyboy: just a discussion really
(10/23 02:09:24) *burnt
(10/23 02:09:33) Horatio252: shall we all introduce ourselves
(10/23 02:09:35) Monkeyboy: ok shilow enjoy
(10/23 02:09:40) Horatio252: and our interests
(10/23 02:09:45) *CIA
(10/23 02:09:49) *National security
(10/23 02:10:09) Monkeyboy: ok,
(10/23 02:10:22) Monkeyboy: My interests lie in Anthor
(10/23 02:10:33) Monkeyboy: 'cuse me Anthro
(10/23 02:10:59) Horatio252: my interests lie in psychology
(10/23 02:11:20) Horatio252: OOC I am a grad student in research psych
(10/23 02:11:43) Monkeyboy: OOC I work as an Archaeologist
(10/23 02:11:54) From Mari' in Mari''s Nexus: Lets do I spy
(10/23 02:12:17) Horatio252: Would others like to introduce themselves
(10/23 02:12:30) Aura: My interest is Anthro
(10/23 02:12:54) Aura: OOC I majored in Psych as well
(10/23 02:13:08) Monkeyboy: oh nice
(10/23 02:13:11) Gui: I'm really just here to observe, though I'm genuinly interested in what this group plans to do.
(10/23 02:13:26) Monkeyboy: that's the point of the discussion really
(10/23 02:13:30) Todoni: I like sci fi- and reading something that ties in anthro and psycho is always the best
(10/23 02:14:08) Monkeyboy: I really like those books that delve into cultures
(10/23 02:14:17) Monkeyboy: hence the reason I'
(10/23 02:14:22) Monkeyboy: I'm here
(10/23 02:14:23) shilow (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):
(10/23 02:14:33) Monkeyboy: Ok is that everyone?
(10/23 02:14:42) Horatio252: Mila?
(10/23 02:15:12) Monkeyboy: ok Horatio, what do you want out of this group
(10/23 02:15:38) Monkeyboy: or really anyone can answer that
(10/23 02:16:08) Horatio252: I would like to a see a group of people taking what we know of the D'ni and analyzing it according to scientific research
(10/23 02:16:27) Todoni: ! cool
(10/23 02:16:28) Horatio252: using our interests in the socila sciences to examine this world
(10/23 02:16:34) Monkeyboy: and how would we go about doing that?
(10/23 02:16:56) Horatio252: I picture us "publishing" articles
(10/23 02:17:01) Monkeyboy: what do we have to help us in examining the d'ni?
(10/23 02:17:11) Todoni: The books
(10/23 02:17:18) Gui: There is a fair bit of translated text that's still dificult for the layperson to understand. Read: The Kings.
(10/23 02:17:38) Todoni: The guild of trtanslators would help
(10/23 02:17:39) Horatio252: tying real world research to the revealed world of d'ni
(10/23 02:17:44) Monkeyboy: Ok we have the books, the Kings, and various other rooftop material
(10/23 02:18:17) Monkeyboy: how far can we go on that?
(10/23 02:18:26) Horatio252: yes, those sources seem at least a good start for psychologicl and sociological study
(10/23 02:18:45) Monkeyboy: Anthro can be in there too
(10/23 02:18:55) Horatio252: I wasn't sure
(10/23 02:19:05) Monkeyboy: just like sociology
(10/23 02:19:16) Monkeyboy: though more dealing with teh past
(10/23 02:19:17) Gui: I'll bet the Guild of Messengers would be happy to have psychologists help them get their messages out more effectively.
(10/23 02:19:23) Horatio252: I think that there is more in those texts than at first seems
(10/23 02:19:48) Monkeyboy: let's see there's one on marriage
(10/23 02:19:51) Todoni: I have always been curious of the population decrease at the time of the fall- how fast- how much- how bad
(10/23 02:20:17) Gui: How many survived to Releshan?
(10/23 02:20:29) Horatio252: do we have that information?
(10/23 02:20:37) Gui: No idea.
(10/23 02:20:38) Monkeyboy: those are really good questions? Is that something we can find out
(10/23 02:20:53) Monkeyboy: or at least do some number crunching
(10/23 02:21:44) Horatio252: I see this group though more focused on the cultural and personal impact of the fall than the facts and numbers
(10/23 02:21:45) Todoni: Hello Bamboozled and Stranger
(10/23 02:21:51) 5TheStranger5 waves hello
(10/23 02:22:08) Aura: Shorah Bamboozled and Stranger :)
(10/23 02:22:16) Monkeyboy: I think your right Horatio, but to konw the personal you need to know the numbers
(10/23 02:22:31) Gui: Another interesting question I know we have information on is how D'Ni survived as long as it did.
(10/23 02:22:40) Todoni nods her head
(10/23 02:22:45) Monkeyboy: how do you mean?
(10/23 02:23:02) Monkeyboy: 200 year lifespan?
(10/23 02:23:12) Monkeyboy: or as in 10,ooo years
(10/23 02:23:34) Gui: Their society held onto itself without forming other nations or any real rebelion until right up to the end, and there's plenty of conflict in the record.
(10/23 02:23:49) Todoni: Well, i think both the people were long lived and also the society lasted longer than earth ones
(10/23 02:23:50) Monkeyboy: plenty of conflict
(10/23 02:23:51) shilow (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):
(10/23 02:24:13) Monkeyboy: a lot of conflict dealt with "outsiders"
(10/23 02:24:37) Monkeyboy: they were a very xenophobic bunch
(10/23 02:24:48) Gui: Certainly not all though. There were succession conflicts, both for the position of King and as Guild leaders.
(10/23 02:25:01) Gui: Conflict among powerful houses.
(10/23 02:25:04) Horatio252: Great ideas, but while we are here, perhaps we should focus on structural things
(10/23 02:25:16) Horatio252: what is the leadership of this group
(10/23 02:25:21) Horatio252: where will we publish
(10/23 02:25:34) Monkeyboy: good points
(10/23 02:25:59) Horatio252: I 'll say waht I have thought, to start us off
(10/23 02:26:19) Monkeyboy: instead of much leadership, we can vote on what ?'s to answer and all work on those ?'s
(10/23 02:26:30) Monkeyboy: oops sorry horatio
(10/23 02:26:32) Horatio252: I think perhaps thier should be head or chair for each disipline
(10/23 02:26:38) Horatio252: okay that's a good idea
(10/23 02:27:17) Horatio252: what are the things we need to talk about
(10/23 02:27:30) Monkeyboy: how are we to publish?
(10/23 02:28:04) Monkeyboy: where to publish, how to talk to one another, and perhaps a sign up sheet? lol
(10/23 02:28:23) Gui: Webpages, seem the de facto publishing media for most other D'Ni groups.
(10/23 02:28:31) Monkeyboy: brb
(10/23 02:28:46) Gui: Are you looking to peer review these papers in some way?
(10/23 02:29:03) Gui: I imagine most of the society being amatures.
(10/23 02:29:05) Horatio252: I have thought about peer review
(10/23 02:29:38) Horatio252: yes I relaize that many are amatur
(10/23 02:30:22) Horatio252: okay peer review falls under my thoughts on leadership
(10/23 02:30:36) Monkeyboy: ok back
(10/23 02:30:40) Horatio252: but it seems publishing is alos a concern
(10/23 02:31:08) Monkeyboy: we can peer review in our own group before publishing
(10/23 02:31:22) Horatio252: that is pretty much what I was thinking
(10/23 02:31:28) Monkeyboy: or perhaps the DWPR can review
(10/23 02:31:29) Todoni: It would be nice to be able to access and read from an easily accessible location on web
(10/23 02:31:43) Todoni: Other than that- doesnt matter to me where is published
(10/23 02:31:46) Monkeyboy: yes it would
(10/23 02:31:49) Gui: Who are the DWPR?
(10/23 02:32:12) Monkeyboy: um they have all the resources on the D'ni anyone could ever have
(10/23 02:32:17) Horatio252: as ot publishing I was thinking more about publishing under the DWPR
(10/23 02:32:24) Monkeyboy: i believe its
(10/23 02:32:26) Cavern Crier (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):
(10/23 02:32:34) Monkeyboy: oh
(10/23 02:32:52) Monkeyboy: I was thinking any major fora
(10/23 02:32:52) Gui: Well that sounds good.
(10/23 02:32:54) Bamboozled (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):
(10/23 02:33:12) Monkeyboy: but the DWPR for sure
(10/23 02:33:28) Horatio252: I am disinclined ot posting as threads on discussion boards
(10/23 02:33:36) Horatio252: was that hat you were thinking
(10/23 02:33:44) Monkeyboy: yes
(10/23 02:33:55) Monkeyboy: share and share alike
(10/23 02:34:15) Horatio252: I was wondering if alahment would allow us ot post as articles
(10/23 02:34:21) Horatio252: in our own section
(10/23 02:34:33) Horatio252: but I have not talked ot him at all
(10/23 02:34:39) Monkeyboy: oh, dunno 'bout that we would have talk to him
(10/23 02:35:08) Monkeyboy: I understand he is quite the busy person
(10/23 02:35:39) Monkeyboy: there is another project the "book of Commentary"
(10/23 02:36:21) Monkeyboy: might be interesting to look into
(10/23 02:36:43) Horatio252: I was not under the impression that the book of commentary was simliar ot our owrk
(10/23 02:36:54) Horatio252: but I will give it another look
(10/23 02:37:09) Todoni: Where is that located?
(10/23 02:37:17) Monkeyboy: well, when I got the PM it was just an idea, I odn't know what it has grown into
(10/23 02:37:33) Monkeyboy: its being built by explorers now Todoni
(10/23 02:37:54) Monkeyboy: they are getting all the info they can about the d'ni and putting it in a book
(10/23 02:37:55) Horatio252: I would check the maintainer lists on both MO:ULand Assembly of Guilds
(10/23 02:38:08) Todoni: K
(10/23 02:38:23) Todoni: gonna go help someone with a eder delin run
(10/23 02:38:28) Todoni: Ty for the meeting!
(10/23 02:38:30) Monkeyboy: What about a website or forum for further discussions?
(10/23 02:38:32) 5TheStranger5 waves hello
(10/23 02:38:35) Monkeyboy: thaks Todoni
(10/23 02:39:06) Monkeyboy: do you know anything about that kind of thing?
(10/23 02:39:28) Horatio252: I have no website making or maintaining ability
(10/23 02:39:41) Monkeyboy: me neither
(10/23 02:39:53) Monkeyboy: Aura? Do you?
(10/23 02:39:59) Horatio252: we could probably get our own section at assembly of guilds
(10/23 02:40:06) Monkeyboy: Do they do that?
(10/23 02:40:16) Monkeyboy: if so that would be good
(10/23 02:40:23) Aura: I can maintain one but can't provide it.
(10/23 02:40:45) Monkeyboy: Do you know how to provide one?
(10/23 02:40:58) Monkeyboy: or the costs involved?
(10/23 02:41:00) Horatio252: AoG has a sticky Ithink invinting people to start threads for all types of groups
(10/23 02:41:02) Aura: Server
(10/23 02:41:20) Monkeyboy: I see Aura, expensive then
(10/23 02:41:34) Aura: Kind of
(10/23 02:41:49) Horatio252: let's not go there yet
(10/23 02:41:52) Monkeyboy: I guess if it just needs to run simple text
(10/23 02:42:01) Horatio252: untill/unless the group gets bigger
(10/23 02:42:33) Monkeyboy: If the AoG will supply a forum then that's all we would need for the time being, your right, horatio
(10/23 02:42:51) Aura: Yes, I think so too.
(10/23 02:43:02) Horatio252: I will try to make that happen
(10/23 02:43:16) Monkeyboy: Ok
(10/23 02:43:18) Aura: sounds good
(10/23 02:43:41) Horatio252: yeah, and we can pubish there for now
(10/23 02:43:42) Monkeyboy: What I'm concerned most with is the interest.
(10/23 02:44:24) Monkeyboy: As you can see we got a couple of people interested, but if it declines...
(10/23 02:44:49) Aura: I think the interest is there it's just the time to research and write that stops people
(10/23 02:44:59) Horatio252: I think seeing published "articles" may increase interest
(10/23 02:45:21) Monkeyboy: It may
(10/23 02:45:41) Monkeyboy: and the time to research and write that will be difficult
(10/23 02:45:55) Horatio252: yeah, I don't want people to feel forced to write long pieces
(10/23 02:46:08) Monkeyboy: I'm not expecting any results for a while
(10/23 02:46:23) Horatio252: there can be valid shorter pieces
(10/23 02:46:48) Horatio252: probably true
(10/23 02:46:59) Monkeyboy: shorter pieces
(10/23 02:47:08) Monkeyboy: good idea,
(10/23 02:47:22) Monkeyboy: what kind of question will give us a short piece?
(10/23 02:48:18) Horatio252: short peices come from incomplete infomration
(10/23 02:48:31) Horatio252: or suggestions for new research
(10/23 02:48:43) Monkeyboy: i think there may be plenty of incomplete research
(10/23 02:48:52) Aura: yes
(10/23 02:49:00) Horatio252: though ot be an article it has ot be more fleshed out than a thread suggestion
(10/23 02:49:18) Monkeyboy: ok, for example
(10/23 02:50:05) Horatio252: I thought of a short peice on the D'ni length of the d'ni day compared ot normal human wake sleep cycles
(10/23 02:50:30) Horatio252: there is not much there, but if I referecne waht we know about normal human behavior
(10/23 02:50:53) Horatio252: I ca nsuggest in an article from our lack of knowledge
(10/23 02:51:09) Horatio252: article form
(10/23 02:51:30) Monkeyboy: i see
(10/23 02:52:32) Monkeyboy: maybe the best thing to do is get a forum set up then go from there?
(10/23 02:52:32) Horatio252: it is hard ot see without a model short article
(10/23 02:52:33) cessy (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):
(10/23 02:52:45) Horatio252: yes I agree
(10/23 02:52:57) Aura: yes
(10/23 02:53:31) Monkeyboy: Then maybe we can all decide on a "short" question to pursue and a longer
(10/23 02:53:43) Horatio252: sounds good
(10/23 02:53:47) Monkeyboy: question to pursue in between the shorts
(10/23 02:54:01) Aura: ok
(10/23 02:54:19) Horatio252: I am thinking, if we get our own section at AoG, of starting a thread for article ideas
(10/23 02:54:25) Horatio252: one for articles in progress
(10/23 02:54:32) Horatio252: and one as a final article list
(10/23 02:54:43) Monkeyboy: and a general discussion
(10/23 02:54:48) Horatio252: yes
(10/23 02:54:57) Monkeyboy: ok good
(10/23 02:55:07) Aura: agreed
(10/23 02:55:25) Monkeyboy: just post on the SAPS meeting thread if you get that setup or not
(10/23 02:55:33) Horatio252: okay
(10/23 02:55:38) Monkeyboy: on the forum that is
(10/23 02:55:44) Horatio252: yes
(10/23 02:55:55) Monkeyboy: sound good Aura?
(10/23 02:55:59) Aura: very
(10/23 02:56:05) Horatio252: do we want ot start a bevin?
(10/23 02:56:22) Monkeyboy: if you want to you can, though,
(10/23 02:56:30) Monkeyboy: i don't think we need to right now
(10/23 02:56:56) Horatio252: okay, I won't now
(10/23 02:56:58) Monkeyboy: everyone can always meet in my Bevin if we need privacy
(10/23 02:57:13) Aura: meeting here for now is working
(10/23 02:57:22) Monkeyboy: yes it is
(10/23 02:57:35) Monkeyboy: I like doing this in public anyway
(10/23 02:57:49) Horatio252: yes, public is good
(10/23 02:57:55) Monkeyboy: seeing we are social studies people
(10/23 02:58:02) Aura: :)
(10/23 02:58:37) Horatio252: the only point of business I wrote for my self was the request for work from SR
(10/23 02:58:50) Monkeyboy: oh
(10/23 02:58:55) Horatio252: I have no problem with indivuad involvment
(10/23 02:59:26) Horatio252: but I think SAPS shold limit itself ot studying cyan/drc revlealed info
(10/23 02:59:31) Monkeyboy: what kind of request are you thinking of?
(10/23 02:59:56) Monkeyboy: we could when it comes to the D'ni
(10/23 03:00:00) Horatio252: did not someone post on our thread about gettinf involved in the d'ni museum of art last week
(10/23 03:00:05) Monkeyboy: I think that's important
(10/23 03:00:18) Monkeyboy: yes, they did lol
(10/23 03:00:42) Monkeyboy: I agree that the D'ni stuff should be cyan stuff
(10/23 03:00:50) Aura: Yes
(10/23 03:01:03) Monkeyboy: but when it comes to other RP cultures then I think we can have a role in that
(10/23 03:01:37) Monkeyboy: It may help whomever wants to create a culture
(10/23 03:01:42) Monkeyboy: they can come to us
(10/23 03:01:51) Monkeyboy: and we can help them write something up
(10/23 03:01:54) Aura: good idea
(10/23 03:02:24) Horatio252: ideally we can be a resources to all groups and guilds
(10/23 03:02:32) Monkeyboy: Ideally yes
(10/23 03:02:51) Monkeyboy: I would hope we could have a foot in there somewhere
(10/23 03:03:51) Monkeyboy: I just wouldn't know how ;)
(10/23 03:03:58) Horatio252: as to my brief thoughts on leadership
(10/23 03:04:08) Horatio252: overall we we will be very democratic
(10/23 03:04:11) Monkeyboy: oh yes
(10/23 03:04:21) Horatio252: with a poit person "chair" for each disipline
(10/23 03:04:24) Horatio252: point
(10/23 03:04:43) Monkeyboy: ok
(10/23 03:04:51) Aura: good
(10/23 03:05:03) Monkeyboy: if we can get enough people involved, that would be a good setup
(10/23 03:05:23) Horatio252: yeah
(10/23 03:05:44) Horatio252: for now we can help and guide each other
(10/23 03:05:55) Aura: sounds good
(10/23 03:06:07) Monkeyboy: ok
(10/23 03:06:21) Monkeyboy: any other questions or comments?
(10/23 03:06:24) Horatio252: that complete's my "agenda"
(10/23 03:06:40) Monkeyboy: Aura, you have anything you want to add or discuss?
(10/23 03:07:06) Aura: No, I think we have a good idea on what we want to do.
(10/23 03:07:16) Horatio252: did anyone get a list of everyone who was here
(10/23 03:07:27) Monkeyboy: hello ceylan
(10/23 03:07:39) Monkeyboy: um no
(10/23 03:07:40) Aura: Hi Ceylan
(10/23 03:07:50) Monkeyboy: there was Todoni
(10/23 03:07:55) Aura: the first time I did not log, sorry
(10/23 03:07:56) Monkeyboy: and Gui
(10/23 03:08:03) Monkeyboy: I have a log
(10/23 03:08:12) Monkeyboy: most everyone spoke so that should work
(10/23 03:08:25) Aura: yes
(10/23 03:08:28) Horatio252: good I was hoping someone logged
(10/23 03:08:35) Monkeyboy: I'll post on the forum
(10/23 03:08:40) Horatio252: great
(10/23 03:09:10) Monkeyboy: ok well I think that does it for me
(10/23 03:09:19) Horatio252: same here
(10/23 03:09:27) Monkeyboy: I think it went well
(10/23 03:09:31) Aura: Nice meeting you all
(10/23 03:09:34) Horatio252: yeah
(10/23 03:09:41) Monkeyboy: nice meeting you as well Aura
(10/23 03:09:43) From peni in D'ni-Ae'gura: good night sweet dreams
(10/23 03:10:02) Monkeyboy: hopefully we can get to know each other better
(10/23 03:10:14) 5TheStranger5: Yep
(10/23 03:10:16) Aura: That would be nice
(10/23 03:10:23) Horatio252: yes
(10/23 03:10:26) Monkeyboy: Ok, I'm off!
(10/23 03:10:29) Monkeyboy waves goodbye
(10/23 03:10:30) 5TheStranger5: Hey Ceylan! :)
(10/23 03:10:33) Aura: Goota go Bye all
(10/23 03:11:17) ...Chat.log stopped.

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 Post subject: First Article
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:53 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:32 am
Posts: 69
Location: Ohio
So, I have not gotten any response from Assembly of Guilds yet. For the moment I will post the draft of my paper on D'ni sleep cycle here, mostly so everyone can see the kind of thing I imagine us producing. I know we talked about short articles, and I listed this topic as an example, but it turned out to be more what I would call medium length.

when I get a moment I will parse it down to form a short article example in addition to this medium length. Everyone is welcome to give feedback on the article itself as well as how this fits how you envision the general form our articles.


D’ni and humans have been presumed to have only a few physiological differences. Research into the human wake and sleep cycle has shown it to be fixed at slightly over 24 hours and resistant to lengthening through artificial light. The D’ni use of a 30 hour day leads to the conclusion that this may be another physiological difference between the races. The physiological basis of the human cycle suggests that this is more than normal adaptation. Implications for speculation about Garterney are included. Weaknesses and future research are discussed.

Overall we assume that physiologically the D’ni and humans are for the most part similar. MYSTlore (2007) lists only a few differences. The D’ni have increased average height, a slenderer build, longer lifespan, pale complexion , ultra sensitivity to light, and a different fertility cycle. Some of these differences are of a fundamental nature such as longer life span and different fertility cycle. The increased sensitivity to light and pale complexion seems potentially an adaptation or minor shift. This study suggests that we should consider the ability of D’ni to follow a 30 hour day to be among the fundamental differences and beyond the scope of minor variation over time.
Humans and animals on the surface of the planet earth operate on a waking sleep cycle consistent with the rotation of the earth. When the sun shines we are awake and when night falls we sleep. This pattern seems based on external cues, leading to the idea that the D’ni could have adapted to a longer cycle.
Czeisler et al. (1999) allow that artificial light can have an effect on our circadian rhythm, pushing it back. We now stay up after dark and wake up after dawn. One might conclude that a whole society whose light cycle was based on a different cycle time, like the D’ni, would adapt to it. Yet research show that in fact the human circadian rhythm is resistant to long term alteration. Czeisler et al. (1999) found that in a situation where the artificial lighting cycle was based on a 28 hour system, people’s bodies held to a fairly uniform 24 hour and 18 minute cycle.
We know that the algae in the D’ni cavern followed a 30 hour cycle (Alahmnat, 2003b). This is also the length of the day that the D’ni used in their calculations of time (Alahmnat, 2003b; Alahmnat, 2003a). Though no where stated, their sleep patterns likely followed this 30 hour cycle: they would sleep during their night, and be active during their day.
Assuming they indeed followed the algae’s pattern, sleeping for about 12 hours straight and then being awake for about 18 hours straight, they would have had a very different physiology from the native human population. Adding 6 hours to the body’s cycle does not seem an easy adaptation for a creature. Neither is it likely to evolve over time as such a huge natural variation in a population nor is it likely to rapidly arise over only a few generations. If it was an adaptation it must have strained the D’ni society in the centuries after coming to the Cavern, yet there are no records such a strain.
This must inevitable lead to speculation about the length of a day on Garternay. This study leaves such a question unexplored, but it seems likely to propose that Garternay had days closer to 30 hours. It is not beyond belief that Ri’neref would realize the importance of this detail and write the descriptive book to a cavern with a 30 hour cycle.
One of the weakness of this study is that there is no research on the long term ability of humans to adapt to an artificially long day. Perhaps the ability to adjust, though rooted in our physiology, is easier than it seems. The underlying genetic variability that may exist in the D’ni is unknown. This makes assertions about how easily the D’ni may adapt over several generations speculative.
It is possible that their sleeping pattern may not have followed the algae. It may have included a time of wakefulness during the night or sleeping during part of the day. This would increase the possibility of them to having a similar cycle to humans. This could also be how they may have eased a transition towards biological adaption to the different cycle.
Further research may explore how such difficulty resetting the length of the biological clock may have affected Anna while she lived in D’ni before the Fall. The invariability of this cycle also has implications for how the D’ni may have adapted to the Ages they visited or lived in. The discovery of information suggesting either the length of a day on Garterney or the difficulty the D’ni had resetting their biological clocks may shed more light on this topic.


Alahmnat. (2003). D’ni Watch. DPWR.NET; Information Archive; Objects, Mechanisms, Materials, and Devices.
Alahmnat. (2003). D’ni Timekeeping. DPWR.NET; Information Archive; D’ni Culture. <>
Czeisler et al. (1999). Stability, Precision, and Near-24-Hour Period of the Human Circadian Pacemaker. Science.
MYSTlore (2007). D’ni (race). MYSTlore. <>

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Last edited by horatio252 on Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Short Example
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:22 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:32 am
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Here is the promised short example. Is this similar to what everyone else was thinking?


Research into the human wake and sleep cycle has shown it to be fixed at slightly over 24 hours and resistant to lengthening through artificial light. The D’ni use of a 30 hour day leads to the conclusion that this may be another physiological difference between the races. The physiological basis of the human cycle suggests that this is more than a normal adaptation.

We have a short list of ways that humans differ from the D’ni, but research suggests that we should add to that list the difference in sleep cycles. It may seem that the difference between a 24 hour day, like humans, and a 30 hour day, like the D’ni, may be within normal human variation. In fact Czeisler et al. (1999) found that even when the day was unnaturally lengthened humans bodies kept a 24 hour and 18 minute cycle, with very little variation between people.

The biological basis for this cycle and its resistance to change leads one to believe that if it is an adaption in the D’ni it must have occurred over many generations. More likely, the D’ni are fundamentally different from humans in this regard. Perhaps Garternay had a 30 hour day, and so Ri’neref wrote the Earth Book to a cavern with a 30 hour cycle. More information about how the D’ni adapted to life in the cavern is needed. Alternately, if the D’ni kept a sleep pattern different from the cavern algae that may also illuminate this issue. The invariability of this cycle has implications for how the D’ni may have adapted to the Ages they visited or lived in.


Czeisler et al. (1999). Stability, Precision, and Near-24-Hour Period of the Human Circadian Pacemaker. Science.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:35 am 

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Very nice, horatio! I like it. One thing I would like to mention is I believe the Ri'Neref did not write in a 30 hour cycle, but the D'ni actually brought in algae that had a 30 hour cycle which, either it was brought with them from Garternay or from another Age, so they could simulate their hours on Garternay, or they ended up adapting to the Algae's hours.

Which, by your study, it seems that the D'ni may have an easier time adapting to different day-night cycles. This would make sense seeing they do travel to many different Ages with different cycles. It would be nice to be able to change the cycle easily to adapt to changing worlds.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:41 pm 

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Well done!!! horatio :D :D

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 Post subject: Our own place
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:22 am 

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I PMed Calam and he agreed to set up a forum for us this weekend over at Assembly of Guilds. I told him that I would moderate, but if someone else wants to they are more than welcome just let me know, and I'll tell him. By the way, the process of joining AoG has a delay between submitting your registration and confirmation, so you might want to do it now if you have the chance.

It would be great to have a few articles to post once we move in, so keep working. I realize that it is an episode week(end), so no pressure, but I want to encourage you. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:38 pm 

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Ok, good news... and what is the website address?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:32 pm 

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It looks like Whilyam, took care of it for us last night. here is the url of our forum. I'll put some topics up now.

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