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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:24 am 
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And Changing Our Perspective

I am posting this thread in the guild section because anyone reading these guild threads has shown they are willing to work together to make the cavern a better and more interesting place to be. Many of you know I have been sticking my nose into many of these public guild discussions trying to encourage more dialogs and show how much I care about the talented explorers, we already have. But I have not just been telling you that I support you- but by doing constructive things to show you how much I care. You can read all of my posts... (Just making a quick check- I still have way too many on the first page...) I have not hesitated to privately contact many of you, explain how I felt and ask for help- even though I barely, if at all, know any of you. And when asked privately or publicly, I have done my best to help where I could. I have only been in the cavern for seven months and envy those of you that have experienced all the previous lives this cavern has had. But I am dismayed at the lack of unity among all of you as explorers and now as guilds. You really do treat this multi-player environment, sometimes, as if you and your buddies are the only ones living in the cavern. You are friendly and helpful, but don't feel much loyalty beyond your circle of friends and let the DRC rule how you view your participation for the most part- sometimes giving up because you think you have no say in what is going on.

There are limits to how much I can get you to listen to- just because there is really no reason for you to even consider what I have been saying for the past few weeks. Who the heek am I??? But I have been to all the ages you have, walked an empty cavern during the off episodes and stood in the city when no one else could get in during an episode. I have been present for the DRC appearances, Reteltee, and Dr. Watson - live and in person- and wonder if you all have been listening to the same speeches and discussions that I have been. I have re-read all of the chat logs, thinking that I was reading to much into what I was hearing because my threads on what has been said by the DRC, Dr. Watson or Reteltee, (on any of the forum sections), don't usually get much of a posted reaction from all of you - but I still read the same inferences between the lines. The problem is, are you? I start all of my many threads hoping to create a discussion and make you think about your place in the cavern- and they die. You all drop them. I know you are reading them. The thread count shows you are- but you are not discussing them. Gosh, I don't even care if you tell me I am nuts! It would be feedback at least.. and I have to post on the forums because I rarely find any of you in the cavern to have these discussions with... and you surely don't come to me. (And that is fine.) I am only an explorer, just like you, and don't want any more than to be able to spend time in the cavern enjoying all the things, you, the guilds, will be able to offer and I am content to contribute where I can with what I can.

Look, I have read the many, many, many informational web sites about Uru. I have a good idea who you all are and what you would like to do. I listened to the Rand Miller interviews- and think I know what his vision is too. I looked at the Cyan site, read all the Myst books, and evaluated MOUL as a business, with and without Gametap. I am missing some connections with a few of the original games - but I am catching up. I can see where this has been and where it needs to go. I don't have all the answers- they have not been given yet- but if "you" get the answers, will you be happy? Are you willing to work within the parameters we will be offered just for the pleasure of having this cavern life continue, find a way to contribute, and maybe, in the future, get the cavern to where you want it to be?

You- the guild hopefuls- are the answer to many of these questions but it is also up to you to educate your fellow explorers. You cannot just focus on your own interests and hope someone else will explain it all to everyone else. I can only do so much and I'm admitting I need a lot of help. Even if I stood in Kirel or the middle of the city and /shouted it 24/7 how many would I reach? We will all need to work together, guild members and supporters, and listen to what we are being told by "everyone" interested. You cannot rely on the powers that be to hold your hand and show you what to do. They are looking for you to step forward and become united so the rest of the cavern community can begin to understand. You "do not" have all the time in the world and the future will not come if you don't step forward. Sorry.

So, how committed are you? I have been exchanging emails with Reteltee for almost two months now trying to figure out how to help all of you see what needs to be done. It has been a delicate word dance with him... He "is" telling you what needs to be done without holding your hand. It is not his job to tell you what to do. It's not his job to even hint at what to do. We have to figure it out all by ourselves. Just think, if we can't convince the DRC, Dr. Watson or who ever that we are ready to work together, what will be the outcome of that scenario. I have been told by Reteltee and Dr. Watson- it will not be good. Your worse nightmare, and mine, "will indeed" come to pass. They are discouraging for a reason, and even so, I am not tired of cheering you on or even worried yet, but I really do need help!

I don't want or need a pat on the back or a KI full of messages but I do need you to connect with the other explorers in the cavern, ("you all", have told me there is more to this than forum posting), and build as solid and united explorer community as you can. Your efforts have been good- getting to know each other and slowly gathering into chosen guilds but we still have so much more work to do. Websites and guild forums are great, gathering out of the cavern is nice and the Job Fair next weekend is so very important- but we need to spend time in the cavern discussing how you, (we), are going to deal with the next few weeks. Believe it or not "YOU WILL" have the power and all of "YOU" must convince everyone else.

Sorry this is such a long post but we have a season finale coming up soon... what kind of message will we deliver during that "finale"? And what kind of finale will there be? Who is ready to approach the DRC or Dr Watson or Reteltee with a united five guild front? One hundred explorer, population limits could be at least 15 or more from each guild- that could be a united guild council of at least one hundred explorers- not one or two. The message you wish to convey must be worked out ahead of time. Trying to all /shout at the same time is just not going to work. They will just link out on you and, if your lucky, wait until you are ready. Do you have spokespeople? Have you thought about any of this? Which one of those three do you want to approach? The DRC, Dr. Watson or Reteltee. Think carefully, review everything we have already been told, discuss your options and this is very serious- I don't think you should be waiting for them...

Please, don't think you, personally, won't have anything to do with any of this- ALL OF YOU DO!!! We all do! Honestly, I just can't do it for you no matter how badly I want too- even if I was the best heekin' cheerleader in the cavern... but I am so willing to help. I have tried to show that. But you have to respond... whether it is among yourselves, to ask my help, or to tell me to just shut the heek up! I will listen...and if needed, I always can come up with more ideas...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:30 am 
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Jenine I appreciate all the efforts you do but I disagree with this post. Do I wish the 5 guilds would already be fully operational? Yes. Is that realistic? No. The whole guild thing takes time. It's for a reason that we were told that it would take years before the system is complete. Each guild is pretty silent in the cavern and in the forums because their supporters are building their own guild from scratch. And as in real life, people have different opinions about their guild. It takes time and discussions to all agree on some things. It doesn't mean the guilds cannot work together... the second 5 Guilds meeting happened recently. Do I wish such meetings would happen on a weekly basis(with weekly Job fair)? Yes. Is that realistic? Again no. There is no lack of effort from those who are working on the guilds, the problem is time and new supporters.... and I'm not gonna force someone to work on a guild...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:51 am 
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Jenine over the last year almost in moul, and the past year and some odd since I joined D'mala most of what you said applies. Old groups come and go from the lime light and new groups take the stage from time to time being loud and noisy.

Good or bad I can't see the DRC appearance rock concert behavior changing much if any without Cyan hoodwinking. They want the story "seen" simple as that, all people can do is get there fast and try to ask good questions. Cyan wants a event, to really dig into things you would need it to be a non-event.

Personally I am interested in the story, and with almost a years growth mo:ul has outgrown UU, but it hasn't gotten past the shadow of Prologue. The Guilds are part of this. <Type "membership" in to the search and limit it to the guild forum; you will see what I mean.> One small group consistently doing and saying the "smart" things to the DRC and moving the story because of that.

Still I am having a lot of fun trying to help setup something that might become the "Maintainers", and no I don't think anyone should really sit and wait for Cyan. Most negative arguments at this point are unproven fluff.

The DRC issued the supporter shirts but Cyan seems to be giving people enough rope to build the groups they want. As long as all the groups acknowledge that the rope may be a cut down the line.

That said during each break the Guild supporters are becoming more of a non-event feature in the Cavern then a event. That is a good thing for us new supporters, it may seem like five groups were kicked off in Kirel but really there were only two. The Maintainers never existed, and the Messengers never pulled together under one banner before. Everyone else was established already as a single group or in the case of the Writers moving that way already.

Baby steps......

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Who is ready to approach the DRC or Dr Watson or Reteltee with a united five guild front? One hundred explorer, population limits could be at least 15 or more from each guild- that could be a united guild council of at least one hundred explorers- not one or two.


That is what people will howl over "the guilds" moving in mass to lock a public area with the pop limit. The next great outcry over the guilds is not going to be over perks they work out inside their own group, it will be the moment that Cyan/DRC recognize the supporter groups that are forming up.

The easiest and cheapest way to recognize a support group would be attach "their" guild pub to "their" hood.

<sorry wandering a bit off track here>

Targeting the Supporters is a good idea, at the moment that's where the bulk of the active people are hanging out. Last episode I got lucky and bumped into a Cate and a Reteltee meeting. Yeah I had ten seconds of "OMG" about being in the same Age with the head of the DRC, but in that amount of time two questions and one statement were made before it turned into a /shout fest. The Reteltee meeting wasn't much better and he's a Explorer, poor guy was getting mauled by seasoned Explorers because of a leading comment on the Bahro.

In this first season of mo:ul we've seen people bog things down, and individuals get tapped by the DRC to play their part in the story. Season two unless Cyan plans otherwise will have more of the same.

So I am a little jaded on the episode thing.

Everyone is waiting to see what they "Have" in the way of new content, and Everyone is sure their question is the most important and needs to be asked directly to the DRC. I seriously never expect a question to get answered unless the DRC happen to link to where you are already at, and you manage to get a answer before the Fan crowd links in.

Going to the cavern late at night grabbing the new, and reading the Story on the forum has been a lot more fun for me then trying to get past my fellow Explorers to "be there" as the story happens.

I play for fun and to reach my goals in Uru, slugging it out via Chat for IC answers isn't part of that. If a opportunity happens it happens, but unless it's subject is announced ahead of time and of interest I will not seek it out.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:48 am 
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I think I agree with you there MustardJeep.

The reality is there are a lot of people, who are adopting a wait and see approach to the future of MOUL, which is fair enough. It could well be that Cyan tweaks something at the beginning of next season which changes the face of the Guilds playing field. I think the uncertainty surrounding the start of Season 2 has people also uncertain about things like guilds.

And also the fact that not everyone has a pile of time to devote to Guilds, becuase of RL committments or whatever (see one of your other threads, I can't remember which one :P)

And of course, there's also the fact that no matter how much we organise, how much we pester the DRC, the can quite easily ignore us, and implement a system that is completely different to what we would already establish. As Mustard Jeep said, they've given us enough rope to get us started. Also enough rope to hang ourselves on if we get too enthusiastic.

Not that I'm having a go, or criticising your efforts, far from it :) Indeed, if I didn't have my hands full atm, I'd probably be doing a similar thing. But I also respect the opinions of those who are approaching this more cautiously.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:18 pm 
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@Jenine

I'm not sure as to the why, but it seems to me that many of your posts have the same theme:

"I'm not seeing anything people! Let's get going! I want to see lots of discussion over here because if I don't, it means nothing is going on."

Sorry to generalize, and I'm glad to see that you are an explorer who is very concerned about the Guilds getting off the ground, promoting communication, and a healthy community.

At the same time you are whipping a dead horse over and over:

Not everyone can contribute as much as they would like to the formation of the guilds. In fact, more than 85% of people on MOUL have Real Life issues that keep them from plunging head first into trying to help start the guilds.
Still others have gone ahead and thrown themselves into full swing on it, only to end up either burned out, or having to scale back as their Real Lives began to suffer from putting so much attention here, and not in their Real Life responsibilties.

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You really do treat this multi-player environment, sometimes, as if you and your buddies are the only ones living in the cavern. You are friendly and helpful, but don't feel much loyalty beyond your circle of friends and let the DRC rule how you view your participation for the most part- sometimes giving up because you think you have no say in what is going on.


I'm sure that this does happen sometimes, I've seen it myself, but not ALL the time.
If you are seeing this with the groups that are trying to form a guild, then name names! Show us proof! I want to see who it is you're talking about!
The supporters of the Maintainers are NOT doing this.
Neither I, nor my wife who IS a Greeter have not seen this.

I've NOT heard of the Cartographers doing this, and infact welcome anyone that wants to talk to them.

The GoW, they are a LARGE and DIVERSE group. Yet they were perfectly friendly towards me, and I've not heard too much that they are acting that way.

The messengers? I don't know about them. Is it they that you are refering to?
I'm sorry, but you say over and over that this is happening, yet you have not shown us WHO.

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I have re-read all of the chat logs, thinking that I was reading to much into what I was hearing because my threads on what has been said by the DRC, Dr. Watson or Reteltee, (on any of the forum sections), don't usually get much of a posted reaction from all of you - but I still read the same inferences between the lines. The problem is, are you? I start all of my many threads hoping to create a discussion and make you think about your place in the cavern- and they die. You all drop them. I know you are reading them. The thread count shows you are- but you are not discussing them.


Just because you post something, does not mean that others will discuss it. I know that might not seem right to you, but it IS a public forum. You have a right to post and state your ideas and thoughts on a mater (as long as it is not abusive, etc), and you have a right to reply to someone else's post with you own opinion (just like I'm doing now. And again, as long as it's not abusive, etc.).
But just because you start up a discussion does not mean that everyone is going to listen to it, or talk about it. And the failure of your post being discussed does NOT mean that nobody is interested in the guilds or building them, or trying to figure out things.
Sorry if that sounds rather callous of me, and I apologize it it upsets you or hurts your feelings (that's not my intention here), but it's a blunt fact: Just because you have an idea or a thought, does not make it right, or something that HAS to be discussed.
That shouldn't stop you from posting though! :wink:

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Look, I have read the many, many, many informational web sites about Uru. I have a good idea who you all are and what you would like to do. I listened to the Rand Miller interviews- and think I know what his vision is too............I can see where this has been and where it needs to go............


Uhmmm......ooookay. I'm sorry, but I'm trying to search for another word here and I'm failing. But arrogant comes to mind. It would be better if you made such a statement but also using such words as: In My Opinion, I Think, I Feel.
Your above statement tends to make people think what you said earlier: Just who the Heek do you think you are? Who put you in charge? etc.

Quote:
You- the guild hopefuls- are the answer to many of these questions but it is also up to you to educate your fellow explorers. You cannot just focus on your own interests and hope someone else will explain it all to everyone else. I can only do so much and I'm admitting I need a lot of help. Even if I stood in Kirel or the middle of the city and /shouted it 24/7 how many would I reach? We will all need to work together, guild members and supporters, and listen to what we are being told by "everyone" interested. You cannot rely on the powers that be to hold your hand and show you what to do. They are looking for you to step forward and become united so the rest of the cavern community can begin to understand. You "do not" have all the time in the world and the future will not come if you don't step forward. Sorry.


Again: Name names please.
You are acting as if ALL the people working on these guilds are acting that way.
And I say they are NOT!
Do you not think that we know we need to reach out to people? Do you know how long and hard we worked on, and then ran around asking anyone and everyone that we could find what they thought of our Mission Statements, etc? Simply because we didn't want people to get the wrong idea about our guild. We did not want anyone to think it was an exclusive club. We wanted everyone we could run into to know that we'd welcome them, or their ideas and thoughts with open arms.

Again, due to Real Life constrants, not all of us can spend every waking hour either logged on to MOUL or here at the forums to "spread the word".
But at the same time, when we are doing things, we try to get the word out.
Please, stop being so gray in this area. If you feel so strongly that what you are saying is true, then again, I (and I'm sure others) ask you to start naming names here. By not doing so, you are inferring that ALL of us are acting that way, and that is something that I do not, and will not agree with.

Quote:
So, how committed are you? I have been exchanging emails with Reteltee for almost two months now trying to figure out how to help all of you see what needs to be done. It has been a delicate word dance with him... He "is" telling you what needs to be done without holding your hand. It is not his job to tell you what to do. It's not his job to even hint at what to do. We have to figure it out all by ourselves.


We know this. As far as I know, none of us are sitting on our hands, but again are working on things, ourselves. We're not waiting on Reteltee or anyone else for that mater.
But there is only so much that we can do, with what we have, with our Real Life constraints also.
Again, please point out who is just sitting there waiting.

Quote:
Your efforts have been good- getting to know each other and slowly gathering into chosen guilds but we still have so much more work to do. Websites and guild forums are great, gathering out of the cavern is nice and the Job Fair next weekend is so very important- but we need to spend time in the cavern discussing how you, (we), are going to deal with the next few weeks. Believe it or not "YOU WILL" have the power and all of "YOU" must convince everyone else.


We know this. That is, we know that Episode time is a good time to get people together, recruit new blood, etc.
But you must tell me your secret: How do you know what is going to be happening on MOUL in the next few weeks?

Speculation if fine. Planing for the worst, but hoping for the best is fine. Acting on little to no information is NOT fine and never a good idea.
Not everyone actually needs to be in the cavern to work on things or plan for things.

Quote:
Who is ready to approach the DRC or Dr Watson or Reteltee with a united five guild front? One hundred explorer, population limits could be at least 15 or more from each guild- that could be a united guild council of at least one hundred explorers- not one or two. The message you wish to convey must be worked out ahead of time. Trying to all /shout at the same time is just not going to work. They will just link out on you and, if your lucky, wait until you are ready. Do you have spokespeople? Have you thought about any of this? Which one of those three do you want to approach? The DRC, Dr. Watson or Reteltee. Think carefully, review everything we have already been told, discuss your options and this is very serious- I don't think you should be waiting for them...


Your opinion is noted, and you have a right to it: You don't think we should wait for them.
Fine. We should pick people to represent each guild and walk up to any of those that you mentioned as tell them: We're it. Don't like it, but here it is.

Right. That's going to go over about as well as a pickle in a chocolate sundae.
Cyan and IC DRC have shown us repeatedly that they do not respond well to threats / demands. Who can blame them? You need to go back further and read posts and take a look at chatlogs going back to the begining of MOUL and see what happens when groups of people start making demands. It never goes well.

Who are any of us that are working on the guilds to say that we're more important than Joe Explorer? What right do we have to exclude Joe Explorer from being able to post or ask their own questions? I know that many times I've thought some of the questions were either pointless or stupid. But they still have just as much right to ask them. I'm not any more important than they. Nor are the Guilds more important that the community. The moment the Guilds become more important than the community or causes the community in general to be shunned, is the moment that the Guilds have overstepped their bounds. The Guilds serve the people. Not the other way around!

Seriously though. You act as if come the first of November, if there is no official guilds already, that it's going to be the end of the world.
This takes time. A LOT of time. Most people know, if you rush something, it always turns out bad.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:47 pm 
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Jenine a reminder, which honestly I think people keep forgetting.

Reteltee is a Explorer! :lol:

All he's trying to do is help start the guilds, and offer a historical view on them. Nothing More.

Suspicions about the extent of his knowledge, Heek yes! :lol:
(Feel free to take that in either direction.)

If I had the use of my hands IC I would go through and pick his pockets looking for the DRC issued Guild quickstart guide among the pocket full of feathers. :P :lol: :wink: He is a character, but that is a personality thing not a Cyan thing. :lol: A couple of his candid grumbles just before the pubs release were priceless. They gave him a one liner to deliver hinting at the pub announcement knowing full well how we treat one liners. :lol:

P.S. Have you ever had him refuse to talk about something? I don't mean that zen buddha dodging of the verbal bullet he picked up from the DRC. Once or twice asking his opinion I've gotten a flat no comment/not interested. :shock: :lol: :P If he really was a figment of a Cyanist's imagination that would never happen.

P.P.S. Reteltee if you read this; Like it or not I do not doubt your existence. :P

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:28 pm 
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OK, so I am pushing too hard- but we are all important "explorer characters" in the cavern- even if we don't see it that way. As soon as you choose your avie for the day- you are slipping into IC world even if you wish to stay OOC.

Only wanted you to think about pulling together more and showing how committed you are, in the cavern, rather than waiting to see what will happen. There are no discussions here about why Cate wants the guilds or whether Dr. Watson will have some answers. Even I doubted Reteltee and he knows that... but in the end does it matter if he is an explorer or something else- he holds some of the keys no matter who he is. So you aren't going to ask him questions or try to find out what that is? You don't have to wait for an episode to ask him anything -even if he answers by giving no answer... You don't have to stand in front of Cate- to hear what she has said or not. If you miss the episodes you can catch up. Anything we need to know is readily available. But if it is only taken at face value why bother with riddles and puzzles... Couldn't they be telling you there is more than one way for this all to work out?

You are all busy and it is "only" a game. It has lasted in it's various ways before I came and after I am gone, and maybe you are content, (but these forums belie that fact). But one thing stays the same- you would like to continue to and participate- or you wouldn't want the guilds.

You cannot be gently persuaded to pull together and I am not the one to do this- never was. I am old enough to know how life works, what I can do, and understand none of this is the end of the world. We each can only give to the cavern what we can. But I will have tried... and that is better than sitting on my hands waiting for someone else to show me the way.

But, if the guilds are not the way for all of us to participate in the future of the cavern, and more puzzles and riddles come along in ages and waiting for those episodes for someone to hold your hand... what is the reason for us to have MOUL? If we don't want to do more and consider our approach to the environment- shouldn't we just wait for stand alone sequel games to appear with puzzles already in them- rather than spending time in a living, breathing and changing cavern? Let's just let Cyan approach those incredible age builders and work out deals for giving you a new add on to a stand alone game. We could have a stand alone game with multi player capabilities like a Halo. But this is Uru! This is not a WoW or Second Life but instead a completely different idea... you will have to find the reasons for it to continue to grow... "They", not I, will guide you. But you will have to be willing to listen... and I think they are already telling you more than you are willing to hear whether I try to tell you- or them.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:23 pm 
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Jenine wrote:
Just think, if we can't convince the DRC, Dr. Watson or who ever that we are ready to work together, what will be the outcome of that scenario. I have been told by Reteltee and Dr. Watson- it will not be good. Your worse nightmare, and mine, "will indeed" come to pass.

And it is that attitude - not yours, Jenine, but Cyan's (let's be clear who we're talking about) - that utterly deflated any interest I had in making a contribution to creating the Guilds. This has gone so far past the point where there is any sense to the IC storyline around the Guilds. We have a war brewing that threatens to obliterate the universe (or whatever the heck the Bahros are capable of) and the DRC responds by telling us to come together to form five Guilds or else our future is in doubt? But then tells us OOC that anything we do may or may not matter? Am I taking crazy pills or what? Cyan has given us an empty canvas, no brushes or paint, and commanded us to create a masterpiece, but they might throw it out anyways. Oh, and by the way, if things go wrong, it's our fault.

Sorry to sound so bitter, Jenine, but I'm just worn out. Brava to you for bringing fresh blood and energy, but old folks like me are just slowly but surely fading away.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:23 pm 
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Jenine,

Questions have been asked and answered by Reteltee, some of the answers however were "Sorry the DRC are not saying yet.". The Questions are still waiting and if the DRC mentions a IC answer sort of related they will get asked again. If he is ever given the answers to the questions asked I am sure he will let us know without us having to harp on it. Currently I like others am waiting for him to finish writing his guild history lecture; It's been delayed by RL several times. :roll: :lol:

I have got to say I have been playing new expansion packs for Uru; they are called Fan Ages. The CC loadable ones are not for the most part Cyan quality but they are there. You talk about it like it hasn't happened yet, that Fan Ages are on the horizon. They have already happened, Fan Ages just are not in MO:UL yet.

Across a dozen threads and two dozen metaphors you've made the same basic post that seems to be wanting IC activity.

So I am going to ask straight out; What do you want?

It is obvious really deep down you are not seeing yet what you want to see. One of the only recognizable elements across all your posts is that you want to see the post-episode discussions run across the entire break.

Am I right in this?

I got very lucky almost a year ago now doing a late night run in the ferry terminal. I was asked by another explorer what I wanted out of Uru. I don't even remember their name but I remember the conversation. I had a rough desire for Fan Content and more Cyan Ages like those in the original Yeesha journey. I couldn't give them a better answer then that, no specifics, no details, just a rough desire. It was the best I had at the time.

What do you want is hard question to answer.

Before you move on to another thread and another metaphor post, please try to answer the question. What do you want out of Uru?

Think on it, I'll be around in this thread when you are ready.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:44 pm 
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I know- and we have all made mistakes- Cyan included. I am not their cheering section- I am yours!

But let's look at this. Cyan knows it has a vision and any reasonable explorer knows it needed updating and recoded to get it ready for any of us to contribute the way we and they want us too. They know we are tired and frustrated. They are listening and showing us they are working as fast as they can. But they have to work within the framework of the "illusion" if not- it ruins it for all of us!!! This is the Key! We can debate IC vs OOC forever and a day but we have to "live" in the cavern IC whether we like it or not. We can discuss OOC out of the cavern as much as we like - but they are not obligated to join in. In fact they have shown, time and again, they will not.

If I only read these forums- I would have gone back to what I was doing before a long time ago. But I have been to the cavern. I see the environment. I too have a vision. If I shut my mouth and keep it to myself, who benifits? I am only asking for a dialog- not the world. I don't even have any deep seated desire to rule the cavern... :wink: But if you want Cyan to hear you- don't you think someone should ask questions? Your answers speak volumes...

Do you think what we say is a mystery to Cyan. Do they have time to pm all of you and tell you exactly what is coming? They didn't tell you how to solve the age puzzles. The objective is for you to take control of what you can and help other explorers to understand. It is a much bigger issue than just the guilds. They said - the watchers are watching, they told you they are not sure if we can do this, they told you how, when, why and what this is all about. (and me too just not as gently) but you are still looking the other way and hoping someone else will tell everyone else...

Andy- you can join guilds and create new ideas and projects. But you could do all of that with a stand alone game. The websites could be there and the age builders could still create, historians could archive and maintainers could bug check- but we don't need MOUL for any of that. A simple stand alone game with plugins and support websites would do the same either way. The point is we need to communicate. Not yell or fight, even though that is something, but guide those who are unsure and try to explain what is really going on. It is not Cyan's job to do that- they are just providing the environment, background, history and soon offering the tools to those who want them- it will only be what we make of it. I am just one voice in a cavernous cavern. And of course I could be very, very wrong.... but if you ask the right questions- you sometimes don't get the answers you would like to hear.

I don't think my conversations with Reteltee are secrets. I have all of the emails if you would like... He did not reveal any super secret plan. But he does speak within a certain framework, is deliberate and subtle with his answers and you have to know what and how to ask, (it's part of the illusion"). That is why I have talked to him for two months. Learning what he will answer and what he won't. Did you try? He has been very frank and answered anything I asked with careful answers or no answer at all. Explorer or no- he would answer yours as well if you ask and you may have better questions than I did.

Look at where he has been posting this month while doing his research. Just do a simple user search for his posts and read them again. He is giving you clues.... I have no IC restrictions and try to say it right out. Are you listening either way?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:01 pm 
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Jenine wrote:
You are friendly and helpful, but don't feel much loyalty beyond your circle of friends and let the DRC rule how you view your participation for the most part- sometimes giving up because you think you have no say in what is going on.


Well loyalty its like respect, it needs to be earned. So it may take people a while to consider others outside their circle of friends like that.

People contribute in different ways sometimes it isn't always apparent.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:11 pm 
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Jenine, I believe Mustardjeep just posed an excellent question, one that I think everybody (not only you) can consider for themselves and learn a lot from the answers.

My post sounds somewhat personal, please forgive me.
I understand your sentiment very well. It's that burning obsession, the deep love for what is Uru that can turn into frustration, when our own energies don't always merge perfectly with others' or if our own 'fire' burns hotter about something that others'. I have posted into the void many many times. I have tried to influence things in what I saw as the "right" direction and it went another many times.
In the end, what's always helped me with this is being accepting and patient and steady about keeping going at what is important to you and being patient with the people and the social dynamics that come with this very unique game. One aspect of that is understanding that - while talking with each other is very very important, in game and on the forums - just doing something is sometimes the better way to go.
Just have to figure out which to do when.
For now, there is a lot to talk about concerning the guilds, and (sometimes actually by talking) there are already some tiny steps of actions that can be taken. So take those actions that you want to take (your KI newsletter is a perfect example, yay, keep on going) and talk about the meat of the matters that you feel are important, constructively and tangibly.

Other than that, on the guild thing itself, I feel andy pointed out some excellent aspects, I love this paragraph:
Quote:
Who are any of us that are working on the guilds to say that we're more important than Joe Explorer? What right do we have to exclude Joe Explorer from being able to post or ask their own questions? I know that many times I've thought some of the questions were either pointless or stupid. But they still have just as much right to ask them. I'm not any more important than they. Nor are the Guilds more important that the community. The moment the Guilds become more important than the community or causes the community in general to be shunned, is the moment that the Guilds have overstepped their bounds. The Guilds serve the people. Not the other way around!

And IMO Zardoz mentioned a perspective that is important to keep in mind and work with, if possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:17 pm 
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I am only asking for a dialog- not the world.

A dialog about what exactly? If not the world...

The DRC, The Bahro, The mixed messages flying around in the face of the Exodus?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:53 pm 
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Jenine wrote:
Andy- you can join guilds and create new ideas and projects. But you could do all of that with a stand alone game. The websites could be there and the age builders could still create, historians could archive and maintainers could bug check- but we don't need MOUL for any of that. A simple stand alone game with plugins and support websites would do the same either way. The point is we need to communicate. Not yell or fight, even though that is something, but guide those who are unsure and try to explain what is really going on. It is not Cyan's job to do that- they are just providing the environment, background, history and soon offering the tools to those who want them- it will only be what we make of it. I am just one voice in a cavernous cavern. And of course I could be very, very wrong.... but if you ask the right questions- you sometimes don't get the answers you would like to hear.


I don't understand why it is you feel that we are not communicating amongst ourselves. Without communication, Sharaya would have gotten no where with her Job Fair. And yet, it is set to go and will be a huge success, regardless of how many people show up or decide to start paying for the game, etc. Further, every time the GoMa Supporters have decided on something they want to do (i.e. testing fan ages), we have posted on another board, to be greeted by open and helping hands! The GoW have been great in helping us out.

I have not yet seen an instance in which there is no communication. People are very excited about the Guilds and are more than willing to work together with each other. If your issue is a lack of a centralized "events" board, I can understand that. Most of the time I accidentally walk into a meeting that I never heard was happening, and only after scouring the MOUL forums do I realized there was an announcement posted WAAAAY back there that never got bumped. So if you're looking for a central events posting, I agree, that'd be a great source of communication.

The trick, as everyone else has pointed out, is that this IS only a game, and RL is more important. I have sacrificed plenty of hours to get the GoMa Supporter's website off the ground, and now that its there, I will be responsible for maintaining it, which equals more of my RL time. Furthermore, I work at a company where, if I were playing URU all day, I would get fired in a heartbeat. I don't have the option of having the game running all day. For me, its a few hours in the evenings or on the weekends when I have the time.

So, those of us who are driven to lead (such as yourself) are pushing and pushing, but you might as well push a brick wall for all the response you'll get. Yes, the DRC has sent mixed messages to us. Yes, we have gotten something started, and its only a little because, indeed, we can either have given ourselves a huge jump start or begun tying the noose around our necks. Its very difficult to work off so little information, but in the spirit of hopefulness, fandom, and a desire to immerse ourselves in URU, we have gone ahead and done what we thought best. You can't ask for much more than that.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:16 pm 
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My general interest has never been the guilds. I am not a guild member or probably ever would be a dedicated one. My interest was in finding a way to explain to those interested and those not interested why any of this was important- Even if you got spitting mad at me and told me to leave.

I could very easily delete Uru from the computer and my life would be just fine. The sun would still rise in the sky tomorrow. And I have gotten a bit passionate about how we all communicate with each other. When I started in April- I hadn't a clue as to what was going on and got so frustrated when I tried to find information in the game- on my own. I wasn't sure I wanted to talk or socialize with any of you, foolishly trying to email the DRC for a new city imager. I was shy and afraid to make a fool out of myself. (Which I have done many times since then). I missed all of the character appearances and wondered if all of that was really important. Then we switched to episodes and I realized if I wanted to "play" I had to be sort of social. There was more to this than just solving puzzles. And if I wanted to have it continue- maybe I had to even chat with all of you... here or in the game. Otherwise it just became another computer game and I could save my $10 a month for something else.

The suggestions of guild building was something I thought I understood and a way I could try to help those of you who have been dreaming of this for a long time - contribute. I am much older than most of you and saw this as an opportunity that as a youngerer person- I would have jumped at and my emotions have overtaken my common sense. It is after all a game, no matter how good, and everyone who visits it will take away and add only what it means to them. Your voices and mine already make a statement about what the cavern is.

I have gotten the discussion I wanted. You have told me what I wanted to know.... I have asked the questions and been answered. My intent was never to tell you what to do, just raise questions and give you more ways to skin that cat you are trying to herd. I just kept trying to see if I could phrase it one more time, a different way because it wasn't the answers "I" wanted to hear, I am stubborn like that, but it got me where I am today- and yep, that's my problem. Darned that sunrise!

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