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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:50 am 
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SCGreyWolf wrote:
Gondar wrote:
From what I read, actually, he's giving the plugin to the GoW to release publically. However the source code he's giving to them so they can update PyPRP and such. I think releasing the source to the plugin is a guild decision. One that as noted can be coopted because of the current structure of said guilds.


I think in the end it'll get released to the public, both, the source a bit later. PyPRP will upgrade to have all the features of the 3ds plugin that they can work in. People will then work on ports to other editors, but those will come later.


And eventually we'll start improving over Cyan's tools, doing stuff they never expected. But that's more likely to be by a small group in the guild rather than an external thing by a genius. If not, well, so be it. Writing ages won't be locked by guild membership, but they do centralize resources and help...


It's not a good idea to let a non-Cyan entity decide who gets the plug-in source. I don't want to use PyPRP. I don't want to use Blender. What do I do, then? As I said before, if that's the way it's going to happen, I'll just continue working with other game engines. I don't have to be a guild member or ask anyone for the tools to create Source engine mods, but I'd prefer work for Uru.

Of course this is just a guess... but I presume that it would be easier to try to master Blender and PyPRP than build something yourself with just the source of Cyan's plugin.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:15 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
From the press conferen
Chogon wrote:
Yes, [the 3DS Max plugin] is to be released to all that want them. The GoW is just the *mechanism* to get it out. (heh)

In other words, the GoW will host the file for unrestricted download. Anyone could use it to produce their own tools.



The GoW will do what the GoW leaders and Cyan want to do. Unrestricted yes, but just like: "www.guildofwriters.com/3dmax_age_plugin_2.10_src.zip"

...maybe not.

I am not Cyan or in an official position of power at the GoW so I can't choose or promise anything.

My hope is that we at the GoW will have a automatic MaxPlugin-source form that you fill out with your name and valid email (or just enter your GoW forum password and username). In this way we get exact names and stats of who is downloading the plugin (we don't just have the wayback machine and spammers downloading the source).

I'd just love to be able to see in a list (say the site admins be able to see in a list) the users (not just ips) that have downloaded the plugin.

(I hope that) the GoW will have absolute power over the plugin but will give it out freely (and will minimal pain on the end user's part). There's a difference between free-range and wild. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:21 am 
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Err, maybe I came off a little harshin my above post (and a little to quick to jump on what JW said...) :roll:

The aforementioned post of mine was an amplified version of my two (main and current) fears:

1) the GoW will become an unneeded appendage to all parties concerned

2) lots of crumby Plasma exporters are made and lead to buggy ages (say, it fills the prp with lots of unused classes with gibberish in them--not really a game-play issue as much as a download and size issue).

Ok, issue one will happen if it happens (I don't think this will happen it's just I'm still worried) :?

For the second, the GoMa along with the GoW and Cyan will have to figure out some stuff.

As you can see both are without foundation and should stop ranting. :P

Oh well, *me locks his account up and gets rid of the key* :wink:


Though all of this secondary ranting forgot to praise the Cyan folks for the great idea to release the plugin source.

GJ Cyan! :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:26 pm 
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Lontahv wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
From the press conferen
Chogon wrote:
Yes, [the 3DS Max plugin] is to be released to all that want them. The GoW is just the *mechanism* to get it out. (heh)

In other words, the GoW will host the file for unrestricted download. Anyone could use it to produce their own tools.



The GoW will do what the GoW leaders and Cyan want to do. Unrestricted yes, but just like: "www.guildofwriters.com/3dmax_age_plugin_2.10_src.zip"

...maybe not.

I am not Cyan or in an official position of power at the GoW so I can't choose or promise anything.

My hope is that we at the GoW will have a automatic MaxPlugin-source form that you fill out with your name and valid email (or just enter your GoW forum password and username). In this way we get exact names and stats of who is downloading the plugin (we don't just have the wayback machine and spammers downloading the source).

I'd just love to be able to see in a list (say the site admins be able to see in a list) the users (not just ips) that have downloaded the plugin.

(I hope that) the GoW will have absolute power over the plugin but will give it out freely (and will minimal pain on the end user's part). There's a difference between free-range and wild. :)


See? That's the problem. Almost ALL of that is a terrible attitude to take. Why would you think it's your place to decide who gets the source and who doesn't? If that's REALLY the way the GoW feels about it, I hope you don't get the plugin AT ALL.

That's the height of elitism, and it stinks.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:33 pm 
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Erik wrote:
SCGreyWolf wrote:
Gondar wrote:
From what I read, actually, he's giving the plugin to the GoW to release publically. However the source code he's giving to them so they can update PyPRP and such. I think releasing the source to the plugin is a guild decision. One that as noted can be coopted because of the current structure of said guilds.


I think in the end it'll get released to the public, both, the source a bit later. PyPRP will upgrade to have all the features of the 3ds plugin that they can work in. People will then work on ports to other editors, but those will come later.


And eventually we'll start improving over Cyan's tools, doing stuff they never expected. But that's more likely to be by a small group in the guild rather than an external thing by a genius. If not, well, so be it. Writing ages won't be locked by guild membership, but they do centralize resources and help...


It's not a good idea to let a non-Cyan entity decide who gets the plug-in source. I don't want to use PyPRP. I don't want to use Blender. What do I do, then? As I said before, if that's the way it's going to happen, I'll just continue working with other game engines. I don't have to be a guild member or ask anyone for the tools to create Source engine mods, but I'd prefer work for Uru.

Of course this is just a guess... but I presume that it would be easier to try to master Blender and PyPRP than build something yourself with just the source of Cyan's plugin.


I've been a programmer for over twenty years... I think I can manage. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:45 pm 
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Okay, hold off on the "It stinks". It is still possible to discuss this calmly. I hope.

SCGreyWolf wrote:

Quote:
It's not a good idea to let a non-Cyan entity decide who gets the plug-in source.


I agree. In other words: if Cyan wants something publicly released, it would be bad for the GoW to restrict it in any way. Bad for the Guild, bad for Age writers, and bad for Cyan. And yes, requiring a username is a restriction -- a small restriction, but still unnecessary.

Also futile: plenty of people would pass the item around. Somebody would release the item freely. (For example, me.) Then Cyan would be happy, Age writers would be happy, and the Guild would be angry off -- because someone (for example, me) is infringing on their power base. In other words? The Guild would be out of touch with Age writers and with Cyan. The Guild would be spending its time consolidating power instead of accomplishing its goals.

Let's not start that. The goal of the Guild of Writers is to create Ages, and help people create Ages. I do not intend for that to be forgotten.

(Of course if *Cyan* insists on download tracking, or other restrictions, Cyan can do that. But it would be a big mistake for *players* to add these limitations.)

I understand Lohntahv's fears, but I see them in a different light. And I know you said these fears are "without foundation", but I don't just want to discard them, I want to analyze and dissipate them:

Quote:
my two (main and current) fears:

1) the GoW will become an unneeded appendage to all parties concerned

2) lots of crumby Plasma exporters are made and lead to buggy ages.


Right now, the GoW controls nothing except a web forum. (E.g., PyPRP is an open-source project managed by its developers. The Guild cannot decide who gets or uses it.) Does that make the Guild an unneeded appendage? No, the Guild is a valuable focus of expertise and activity. It's working. It doesn't need artificial aid.

As for (2), there will be buggy Ages. You can *always* make buggy Ages. There is no such thing as a tool that only makes high-quality Ages. The idea of restricting *one tool* in case it *might lead to other tools* that *might not be as good* is paranoia piled on paranoia. What if somebody makes a crummy Plasma exporter out of PyPRP? What if someone makes a crummy Plasma exporter from scratch? The whole point of Cyan releasing their plugin is to help people to make *better* exporters.

The way you avoid bad tools is to make good tools freely available (and document them, and document the data formats). That makes the system maximally attractive to people who can make the tools *better*.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:55 pm 
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In other words, the Guild will be what it makes of itself and will deserve the rewards. Plus, a free market and word of mouth will encourage growth and support of the superior tools while the inferior tools will die out.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:52 pm 
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If I understand the emphasis and essential content of SCGreyWolf's posts and copping a quote, it is this...

“A committee (Or in this case, a Guild) is a cul-de-sac down which ideas are lured and then quietly strangled.”
Barnett expletive

Had CYAN developed, Myst and Riven within the structure of a Guild, or the current structure of a Guild, would either have happened? I fear the Guilds will be dominated like the forums and many of the neighborhoods, etcetera, when URU was alive, by the weight and forcefulness of personality of the few. Given the existing Guilds don't have all the structural benefits that CYAN has or had even when they started out in a garage though, this resuscitation of URU has long, long odds.

SCGreyWolf is correct, if I understand the body of the statements correctly, safeguards are needed to ensure contributions from individuals whose creative juices don’t always work well in or with committee are not squashed. Great art and invention, if I may apply those terms to the develpement of ages for URU as I think it appropriate, is often the vision of the one and is/could be easily drowned out by the voices of the many/committee/guild or the one, 'Guild Master'. That I think needs some priority in thought and planning, even above other matters.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:56 pm 
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I support any Guild which denies a license to any Writer who assigns their hood age with the last name of "Bevin." ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:41 pm 
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:lol: LOL JW.

I think the Writers will be just and fair in what they do: that is, they will follow their instructions from Cyan. I have had wonderful dealings with them and they are a responsible group who can handle this.

I do, however, see where SC is coming from. I think there is a large group of us who would rather see the plugin and engine in just about any other programming language than what it currently is. Unfortunately, we are somewhat "stuck" with Plasma and pyPRP as that's what the server will understand. :? If we can find another language that is compatible with Cyan's side, we might be able to move forward in a slightly less frustrating manner, with more people able to contribute. I think SC has a right to with hold his hard earned cash until he determines if the setup suits him.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:57 pm 
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Looking at this in the light of day... afternoon rather. That post of mine was a really trollish thing to say. >.<

SCGreyWolf: Well... I'm not going to say anything to this because I'm not scrabbling to get the source. I can continue to add stuff to pyprp without it. This is not elitism, this is me thinking that the source should get controlled, and if I can't download it with these rules, FINE.

At best the source can be something that can make all my previous plasma knowledge legal.

The GoW councilors will decide what's best to do. 8)

I hope I haven't just alienated a huge pile of folks (which I'm sure I have).

Belford: As you said the GoW is about writing ages. *big thumbs up*

We shall see when the time comes. :D If there are issues with unstable ages... Cyan/GoW/GoMa will step in.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:37 am 
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Scene cut to six months from now.......


Lontahv has submitted a new Age to the maintainers.

The call goes out to explore the Age.

All eye's turn towards the mangled rack of Maintainer Suits

There is a deafening Linkout sound.......

The speaker turns around looking at the now empty room, Come on the books only glowing the last one was on fire.


:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:07 am 
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:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:17 pm 
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I agree that the Writers should release the plugin to anyone and everyone just as they do now for the PyPRP plugin.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:08 am 
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Yup! The only way for new plugins not to be bad is to have easy-access to the source. :D

Although (as I've learned with someprogram>blender importers) programs just make verts for some odd reason. I've heard that CAD is the worst (lots of duplicate meshes). So if (when the plugin gets released) someone wants to make a CAD>Uru exporter be careful. 8)

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